United Hour podcast - Ole, it's Spurs (Tottenham victory)

[Vault Dweller]

That's a bit better than last Sunday! Nik(@Rood) and Imran(@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Manchester United's comfortable 3-0 victory over an absolutely dreadful Spurs side as the sack race pressure moves from Ole to Nuno. A deep analysis of the 3-5-2 formation and whether Man Utd should stick with it as Varane and Cavani return to the First XI, and a preview of the crunch Champions League away trip to Atalanta.

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Let us know what you think of the pod troops - agree or disagree on the points made? Questions for next week?

Did Saturday change anyone's mind on Ole, does it let him off the hook? Do we stick with this change? What happens with Sancho and VdB in the new formation?

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[#07]

Enjoyable listen and, as I did on the last pod, I'll clap my hands to you picking out the key point: The formation made a big difference but the formation wasn't the most important change. You can play 4-2-3-1 without your lines spread out like the proverbial's legs. You can play 4-2-3-1 without people doing random man to man pressing. You can play 4-2-3-1 without leaving gaps for opponents to exploit. We have just chosen not to. As you said Ole made a conscious choice to open up midfield and, for the best part of two months, ignored the consequences until it led to a once in a century battering. Its too easy to blame the players or blame the formation, as others have. I'm glad United Hour has actually been focussing on the nub of the issue.

As I've said elsewhere that's why I was, and am, so angry with Ole for what happened Sunday before last. As much as I love the guy the warning signs were flashing for weeks and weeks and weeks. Yet he refused to change. I'm not saying we've got the squad to be as dangerous a counterattacking team as Mourinho's 2012 Madrid. However, give or take a Xabi Alonso and a Dani Carvajal, we're not that far off. There was no reason why Ole could not have gone into this season with a counter and kill strategy. If he loses his job over poor results, which is still a big possibility, he has only himself to blame. Nobody forced him to set the team up so openly.

That being said, thought it was a really intelligent point suggesting we may have switched to a 3-5-2 just because the players might've needed to do something different to stop them losing faith. Having had all those bad results with 4-2-3-1, it might not have worked against Spurs even if Ole had come in and said: 'Actually lads. Lets play this like we played it at Man City in March when we beat them 2-0.' Psychology is an underrated part of football.

I agree with you that, sooner or later, we'll see the return of a back four. It won't be a huge change. You're just switching out a centre back, probably Lindelof, for another attacker. Provided that, when we lose the ball, we sit in shape and stay compact, we should be able to get wins with pretty much any formation.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Enjoyable listen and, as I did on the last pod, I'll clap my hands to you picking out the key point: The formation made a big difference but the formation wasn't the most important change. You can play 4-2-3-1 without your lines spread out like the proverbial's legs. You can play 4-2-3-1 without people doing random man to man pressing. You can play 4-2-3-1 without leaving gaps for opponents to exploit. We have just chosen not to. As you said Ole made a conscious choice to open up midfield and, for the best part of two months, ignored the consequences until it led to a once in a century battering. Its too easy to blame the players or blame the formation, as others have. I'm glad United Hour has actually been focussing on the nub of the issue.

As I've said elsewhere that's why I was, and am, so angry with Ole for what happened Sunday before last. As much as I love the guy the warning signs were flashing for weeks and weeks and weeks. Yet he refused to change. I'm not saying we've got the squad to be as dangerous a counterattacking team as Mourinho's 2012 Madrid. However, give or take a Xabi Alonso and a Dani Carvajal, we're not that far off. There was no reason why Ole could not have gone into this season with a counter and kill strategy. If he loses his job over poor results, which is still a big possibility, he has only himself to blame. Nobody forced him to set the team up so openly.

That being said, thought it was a really intelligent point suggesting we may have switched to a 3-5-2 just because the players might've needed to do something different to stop them losing faith. Having had all those bad results with 4-2-3-1, it might not have worked against Spurs even if Ole had come in and said: 'Actually lads. Lets play this like we played it at Man City in March when we beat them 2-0.' Psychology is an underrated part of football.

I agree with you that, sooner or later, we'll see the return of a back four. It won't be a huge change. You're just switching out a centre back, probably Lindelof, for another attacker. Provided that, when we lose the ball, we sit in shape and stay compact, we should be able to get wins with pretty much any formation.

Yeah exactly, there is certainly no reason why we can't look organised/cohesive with four at the back - like you say, most of what went right on Saturday was due to us not playing like a bunch of random strangers doing 11 different things.

What do you think on the point that Ole can *only* organise us with the security of that extra man at the back? Do you think he has the confidence/ability to make us look secure with out that safety that a third man back their brings, both for the defence and the midfielders in front of them?

 

[#07]

Yeah exactly, there is certainly no reason why we can't look organised/cohesive with four at the back - like you say, most of what went right on Saturday was due to us not playing like a bunch of random strangers doing 11 different things.

What do you think on the point that Ole can *only* organise us with the security of that extra man at the back? Do you think he has the confidence/ability to make us look secure with out that safety that a third man back their brings, both for the defence and the midfielders in front of them?

I think he can do it. Mostly because that's what he has tended to do in big games. IMO we won comfortably at the Etihad in March. Yes, Martial got us the early penalty. However, there weren't many moments of that game where I thought: 'Crap, City could really open us up here.' In fact, Ole's tendency to beat Pep, usually with a 4231, shows he can do it with a back four. Thinking back to the big games last season, we were heavily criticised for how many of them ended 0-0 because Ole opted for solidity in those matches.

That's why I'm still p'd off at him for letting us get ripped to shreds by Liverpool. Ole is not, nor will he ever be, the next Johan Cruyff. However, he has shown over and over again that he can organise a team and send them out not to get absolutely shat on. The fact he has not been doing so, and watching us get sliced open over and over, is hard for me to accept. Red Nev made the point on Sky at the weekend: Why has it taken 8 weeks of poor performances and a hiding from Liverpool for United to decide we need to drop into shape out of possession and get compact?

I know I sound like a massive Ole outer, and actually I've been Ole since 5-0 at Cardiff way back when. But when you see how obvious the problem was and how little, relatively speaking, United had to do to fix it: Get compact, play on the counter. I have to blame Ole. Like you said: He has been open about saying he wanted to open up, play 424. This defensive ropiness is down to a conscious choice from the coaches. And, you know, in theory it was fine to try it. But when you see De Gea bailing you out against Southampton, Wolves, West Ham and Villareal, when you see Villa get a win at United, Everton steal points, Leicester walk all over us, Atalanta go 2-0 up before being clawed back. Maybe, before you even get to the Liverpool game, you have to say to yourself: 'This isn't working. Lets just go back to what we were doing before.'

 

[Rood]

I think he can do it. Mostly because that's what he has tended to do in big games. IMO we won comfortably at the Etihad in March. Yes, Martial got us the early penalty. However, there weren't many moments of that game where I thought: 'Crap, City could really open us up here.' In fact, Ole's tendency to beat Pep, usually with a 4231, shows he can do it with a back four. Thinking back to the big games last season, we were heavily criticised for how many of them ended 0-0 because Ole opted for solidity in those matches.

That's why I'm still p'd off at him for letting us get ripped to shreds by Liverpool. Ole is not, nor will he ever be, the next Johan Cruyff. However, he has shown over and over again that he can organise a team and send them out not to get absolutely shat on. The fact he has not been doing so, and watching us get sliced open over and over, is hard for me to accept. Red Nev made the point on Sky at the weekend: Why has it taken 8 weeks of poor performances and a hiding from Liverpool for United to decide we need to drop into shape out of possession and get compact?

I know I sound like a massive Ole outer, and actually I've been Ole since 5-0 at Cardiff way back when. But when you see how obvious the problem was and how little, relatively speaking, United had to do to fix it: Get compact, play on the counter. I have to blame Ole. Like you said: He has been open about saying he wanted to open up, play 424. This defensive ropiness is down to a conscious choice from the coaches. And, you know, in theory it was fine to try it. But when you see De Gea bailing you out against Southampton, Wolves, West Ham and Villareal, when you see Villa get a win at United, Everton steal points, Leicester walk all over us, Atalanta go 2-0 up before being clawed back. Maybe, before you even get to the Liverpool game, you have to say to yourself: 'This isn't working. Lets just go back to what we were doing before.'

Yes like I said on the pod, even for an Ole supporter like myself, it will take a lot more than 1 win against Spurs to repair the immense damage done by the pathetic Scouse result

You are right that Ole has to take the blame for the defensive frailty this season, Maguire and Shaw in particular have been poor all season though but then again its upto Ole to spot that and rest them - but mostly it is down to trying to play more open in midfield and failing.

On a long term plan, OIe has clearly wanted to evolve this team in style - his first full season our defensive record was actually great (36 conceeded vs 33 by champions Liverpool) but we didnt score enough, last season only City scored more league goals than us but defence was an issue with 4 teams having a better record and few others not far behind (though as you note we did keep clean sheets in several 'big' matches). This season defence has been a mess, yes we have had injuries at CB but still thats not a valid excuse and I know several had been expecting the extra defender to come in for Liverpool.

I dont think he will stick with the 3 CBs long term though - I expect it for the next 2 games but sooner or later he will revert to his preffered formation.

 

[#07]

Yes like I said on the pod, even for an Ole supporter like myself, it will take a lot more than 1 win against Spurs to repair the immense damage done by the pathetic Scouse result

You are right that Ole has to take the blame for the defensive frailty this season, Maguire and Shaw in particular have been poor all season though but then again its upto Ole to spot that and rest them - but mostly it is down to trying to play more open in midfield and failing.

On a long term plan, OIe has clearly wanted to evolve this team in style - his first full season our defensive record was actually great (36 conceeded vs 33 by champions Liverpool) but we didnt score enough, last season only City scored more league goals than us but defence was an issue with 4 teams having a better record and few others not far behind (though as you note we did keep clean sheets in several 'big' matches). This season defence has been a mess, yes we have had injuries at CB but still thats not a valid excuse and I know several had been expecting the extra defender to come in for Liverpool.

I dont think he will stick with the 3 CBs long term though - I expect it for the next 2 games but sooner or later he will revert to his preffered formation.

Pretty much completely agree. As you say, Maguire and Shaw have been pretty shocking. However, I think that's largely a function of Ole's tactics.

As a coach, how can you look at Maguire and think: 'Yes, lets defend from halfway.' The reason Maguire is diving into Almiron and getting ghosted on the halfway line is because he knows he's got no recovery pace. If you want to play a high press and stay compact you gotta play a high line. However, virtually every defender we have with the exception of Varane is poor at playing high. As a coach, therefore, you have to see things like that and maybe think to yourself: 'You know what? I should stop asking them to do that. They look nervy as f-k doing it and its making them play worse.'

Like I said, I've been Ole in but I blame him for every bad result we've had this season. It was obvious, to anyone with eyes, that the way he was sending the team out was ruining us. Worse thing is the players could see it too. Pogba's comments about something needing to change after Leicester. Bruno's comments after Atalanta that players will always question the coach but whether he's right or wrong we will back him. Players don't say this stuff if they really believe the tactics are working. Seemingly everyone besides Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna could see the iceberg coming, while they all kept shouting: 'Unsinkable. The Titanic is unsinkable!'

I saw one thing today that actually really angered me, which just shows how much I'm failing to live the Liverpool result down. Robbo gave an interview to the official site, which for the most part was sound. However, there was one line that f'd me off. He said something like it probably suited us to play Spurs away, as there wasn't the pressure from the home fans to play on the front foot.

They, the powers that be at United, keep setting up this strawman that the were demanding Ole change his tactics. I'm not having it.

First, its a lie. Ole forced this kamikaze football on us not the other way around. Its not like the Carlos Quieroz era where people were chanting: '442.' Second, even if wasn't a lie (which, I emphasise again, it is), what would it say about Ole if he was so weak that a bit of pressure from fans made him change his tactics? When people were chanting 442 at Sir Alex and singing Roy Keane's name it didn't change his mind about anything. If you're a coach with any kind of sense of yourself you can't be swayed by supporters. Ole isn't helped by Robbo, or anyone else at the club, trying to excuse him by blaming fan expectations for his suicidal early season set-up.

 

[FatTails]

@Rood I really can’t see how these two views are reconcilable:

• I am not Ole out and he should get more time.
• He is now living game-to-game.

The fact that we acknowledge that he is living game to game means he’s not staying long term, and even his supporters don’t believe he is, so what’s the point of any waiting? If ultimately he is not good enough (implicitly you’re saying that’s the case because presumably if we get smashed by City, you’d be ok with him being sacked), then why should he stay in the job any longer?

It just feels like after ~3 years in charge and 440m spent we are talking about Ole now as an interim manager who has to prove himself so he can get more time. That, in itself, means he’s failed.

 

[Rood]

@Rood I really can’t see how these two views are reconcilable:

• I am not Ole out and he should get more time.
• He is now living game-to-game.

The fact that we acknowledge that he is living game to game means he’s not staying long term, and even his supporters don’t believe he is, so what’s the point of any waiting? If ultimately he is not good enough (implicitly you’re saying that’s the case because presumably if we get smashed by City, you’d be ok with him being sacked), then why should he stay in the job any longer?

It just feels like after ~3 years in charge and 440m spent we are talking about Ole now as an interim manager who has to prove himself so he can get more time. That, in itself, means he’s failed.

He's living game to game at the moment due to the poor start to the season and in particular the Scouse capitulation, 1 game doesnt change that but a good run of games would. The season is far from dead and the players are still clearly backing the manager so thats why I give him more time.

Its deja vu because Ole has been here before and turned it around, we had poor starts to both of the last 2 seasons and Ole was getting sacked around this time of year last season too but by Xmas we were top of the league so the precedent is there

But yes if we got smashed by City then I wouldnt complain about Ole getting the boot - however on the other side, win that game and we on the same points as City so then I would ask you, how can you talk about sacking the manager?

 

[croadyman]

He's living game to game at the moment due to the poor start to the season and in particular the Scouse capitulation, 1 game doesnt change that but a good run of games would. The season is far from dead and the players are still clearly backing the manager so thats why I give him more time.

Its deja vu because Ole has been here before and turned it around, we had poor starts to both of the last 2 seasons and Ole was getting sacked around this time of year last season too but by Xmas we were top of the league so the precedent is there

But yes if we got smashed by City then I wouldnt complain about Ole getting the boot - however on the other side, win that game and we on the same points as City so then I would ask you, how can you talk about sacking the manager?

Remind me Nik who is actually available to take the job now, answer NO BLOODY BODY

 

[Rood]

Pretty much completely agree. As you say, Maguire and Shaw have been pretty shocking. However, I think that's largely a function of Ole's tactics.

As a coach, how can you look at Maguire and think: 'Yes, lets defend from halfway.' The reason Maguire is diving into Almiron and getting ghosted on the halfway line is because he knows he's got no recovery pace. If you want to play a high press and stay compact you gotta play a high line. However, virtually every defender we have with the exception of Varane is poor at playing high. As a coach, therefore, you have to see things like that and maybe think to yourself: 'You know what? I should stop asking them to do that. They look nervy as f-k doing it and its making them play worse.'

Like I said, I've been Ole in but I blame him for every bad result we've had this season. It was obvious, to anyone with eyes, that the way he was sending the team out was ruining us. Worse thing is the players could see it too. Pogba's comments about something needing to change after Leicester. Bruno's comments after Atalanta that players will always question the coach but whether he's right or wrong we will back him. Players don't say this stuff if they really believe the tactics are working. Seemingly everyone besides Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna could see the iceberg coming, while they all kept shouting: 'Unsinkable. The Titanic is unsinkable!'

I saw one thing today that actually really angered me, which just shows how much I'm failing to live the Liverpool result down. Robbo gave an interview to the official site, which for the most part was sound. However, there was one line that f'd me off. He said something like it probably suited us to play Spurs away, as there wasn't the pressure from the home fans to play on the front foot.

They, the powers that be at United, keep setting up this strawman that the were demanding Ole change his tactics. I'm not having it.

First, its a lie. Ole forced this kamikaze football on us not the other way around. Its not like the Carlos Quieroz era where people were chanting: '442.' Second, even if wasn't a lie (which, I emphasise again, it is), what would it say about Ole if he was so weak that a bit of pressure from fans made him change his tactics? When people were chanting 442 at Sir Alex and singing Roy Keane's name it didn't change his mind about anything. If you're a coach with any kind of sense of yourself you can't be swayed by supporters. Ole isn't helped by Robbo, or anyone else at the club, trying to excuse him by blaming fan expectations for his suicidal early season set-up.

I dont think Maguire and Shaw's form is totally down to tactics, there are individual errors which they have to take responsibility for - I reckon there is a Euros hangover going on for several players and the mental toll of losing 2 finals on penalties shouldnt be underestimated

Do agree with you on the Robbo comments though - the fans have every right to have higher expectations this season and it's up to Ole to live up to them

 

[Rood]

Remind me Nik who is actually available to take the job now, answer NO BLOODY BODY

Like I said it's deja vu - last year many decided Poch was the saviour and this year it's Conte

Anyway Redcafe's prefered option of Ten Hag is still available

 

[Frank Grimes]

He's living game to game at the moment due to the poor start to the season and in particular the Scouse capitulation, 1 game doesnt change that but a good run of games would. The season is far from dead and the players are still clearly backing the manager so thats why I give him more time.

Its deja vu because Ole has been here before and turned it around, we had poor starts to both of the last 2 seasons and Ole was getting sacked around this time of year last season too but by Xmas we were top of the league so the precedent is there

But yes if we got smashed by City then I wouldnt complain about Ole getting the boot - however on the other side, win that game and we on the same points as City so then I would ask you, how can you talk about sacking the manager?

Maybe because we'd be 8 points (presuming Chelsea beat Burnley) off the top of the table? Why should a disastrous city start be used as a some sort of barometer for us? If city are having a rubbish start we should be ahead of them otherwise it just means both teams have been rubbish.

 

[croadyman]

Like I said it's deja vu - last year many decided Poch was the saviour and this year it's Conte

Anyway Redcafe's prefered option of Ten Hag is still available

Yeah and IF we were a proper club then would have secured him for end of the season and announced it like City, however like we both know this club is soft from top to bottom and are too worried about that upsetting Ole and affecting form

 

[Rood]

Maybe because we'd be 8 points (presuming Chelsea beat Burnley) off the top of the table? Why should a disastrous city start be used as a some sort of barometer for us? If city are having a rubbish start we should be ahead of them otherwise it just means both teams have been rubbish.

City are Champions and the current bookies favourite to win the league - they are the barometer

And don't presume anything on other results either - anything can happen in this league

 

[croadyman]

City are Champions and the current bookies favourite to win the league - they are the barometer

And don't presume anything on other results either - anything can happen in this league

Yeah like Utd making the stupid decision of giving an ex player a permanent job

 

[Frank Grimes]

City are Champions and the current bookies favourite to win the league - they are the barometer

And don't presume anything on other results either - anything can happen in this league

City will have played Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester, Spurs and United away from home after Saturday. They have consistently showed they can achieve well over 85 points. They will be well capable of going on a run no matter what happens Saturday. Ole hasn't even averaged 2 out of 3 points in the league as United manager.

Our only concern should be getting enough points to win the league. Last season we finished 5 points AHEAD of the previous years champions. Unfortunately it meant we were 12 points behind the winners. It's this years leaders we're chasing not last years, mate.

 

[Rood]

Yeah like Utd making the stupid decision of giving an ex player a permanent job

Are you still moaning about that? Get over it

Whatever happens with Ole now, he's done a good job over the past 2 years to build the best squad we've had since SAF - sad that some fans don't realise this and show some respect

 

[croadyman]

Are you still moaning about that? Get over it

Whatever happens with Ole now, he's done a good job over the past 2 years to build the best squad we've had since SAF - sad that some fans don't realise this and show some respect

No I will tell you what's sad is your ridiculous blind faith in this guy who has never proved himself as a top manager, I am sick to death of this club's fanbase accepting mediocrity just because it's the "right thing to do". Make no mistake Conte will be on a mission to show us what we missed out on so enjoy the pain that will come with that won't you.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Yeah like Utd making the stupid decision of giving an ex player a permanent job

All of the top managers bar Tuchel in the PL have been hired by their former clubs as players so it’s not necessarily the best criteria for candidate omission

 

[buckooo1978]

another poor performance against a decent side

goals from moments of individual brilliance

no sustained quality or attacking threat

looking very sloppy and vulnerable at the back

Was really hoping that we could have shown the kind of control, organisation and creativity we did against that awful Spurs team. Instead that was standard Solskjaer... not good enough

Saturday should be fun

 

[Rood]

another poor performance against a decent side

goals from moments of individual brilliance

no sustained quality or attacking threat

looking very sloppy and vulnerable at the back

Was really hoping that we could have shown the kind of control, organisation and creativity we did against that awful Spurs team. Instead that was standard Solskjaer... not good enough

Saturday should be fun

True it was not good - Maguire and Pogba is particular were crap

No Varane or Lindelof for Saturday should be interesting!

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[buckooo1978]

True it was not good - Maguire and Pogba is particular were crap

No Varane or Lindelof for Saturday should be interesting!

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I think he's going to have to draft in Telles and play Shaw at CB. Honestly if he was fit I'd have Jones in the squad. Jones and Smalling didn't have a season as bad as Maguires current one and they took some abuse.

Poor as they were I was really disappointed with performance levels all over the pitch though in what was another really ineffective display.

if we give him more and more time he might pick up a few results but we still won't be the cohesive footballing team we should be given the quality of players. Not sure who we would draft in now though with Conte gone.

An 18 month contract would have been perfect for organising this team, developing a style of play and putting us in a position where we could move to someone more progressive or keep Conte on. Listening to Horncastle the other day and he felt Old Trafford might have been a place where Conte would have settled. Who knows though.

 

[Rood]

@buckooo1978 Jones has been out too long to be drafted in for a game like this - Shaw at CB would be more likely or even McT does it for Scotland. Lindelof may yet be available too.

But yes Maguire's poor form is a major worry for Saturday - he's clearly not fully fit and will need a lot of protection from McFred

Pogba's crap performance was the main reason for our drop in performance compared to Spurs - Atalanta are a much better team too of course

 

[buckooo1978]

@buckooo1978 Jones has been out too long to be drafted in for a game like this - Shaw at CB would be more likely or even McT does it for Scotland. Lindelof may yet be available too.

But yes Maguire's poor form is a major worry for Saturday - he's clearly not fully fit and will need a lot of protection from McFred

Pogba's crap performance was the main reason for our drop in performance compared to Spurs - Atalanta are a much better team too of course

There's obviously something not quite right with Jones. I think he's battled with mental health issues and I wonder how fit he is, mentally and physically. He wasn't that bad a player though. If he is training well I'd have him as an option

I do think it's far too simplistic to blame individual players for drops in collective performance. The poor performances, have been consistent all season. We didn't play well, defend well or attack well as a team.

Pogba needs to be quicker on the ball. Maguire too. Stick Fred in from Pogba and I still think we struggle against Atalanta due to our general collective issues. Buck stops with manager for continued consistent collective poor form.

 

[Rood]

There's obviously something not quite right with Jones. I think he's battled with mental health issues and I wonder how fit he is, mentally and physically. He wasn't that bad a player though. If he is training well I'd have him as an option

I do think it's far too simplistic to blame individual players for drops in collective performance. The poor performances, have been consistent all season. We didn't play well, defend well or attack well as a team.

Pogba needs to be quicker on the ball. Maguire too. Stick Fred in from Pogba and I still think we struggle against Atalanta due to our general collective issues. Buck stops with manager for continued consistent collective poor form.

I think its just difficult to come back when you have been out so long, there is no opportunity for him to get the gametime to get back to match fitness. Jones was a top player in his youth, just ruined by injury

I think its valid to look at the difference between Spurs and Atalanta - obviously the opponent is far stronger yesterday but when you have Pogba giving the ball away constantly (78% passing accuracy is pathetic for a CM) then its a major reason

 

[Denis79]

another poor performance against a decent side

goals from moments of individual brilliance

no sustained quality or attacking threat

looking very sloppy and vulnerable at the back

Was really hoping that we could have shown the kind of control, organisation and creativity we did against that awful Spurs team. Instead that was standard Solskjaer... not good enough

Saturday should be fun

As long as we don't go head to head with them we should be able to weather the storm.