United Hour - Redcafe's Podcast - Spurs Defeat

[Alock1]

This week, Jamie @Vault Dweller, Colm @Duafc and Alex (me) congratulate Jose on a well deserved win for Spurs at Old Trafford. Jamie makes his United Hour hosting debut to chew over our disgrace of a performance as we tear into everybody and everything at the club, and try to dissect just what happened.

Subscribe & listen on iTunes/Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever get your pods by searching for United Hour

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As always, a huge thanks to the editor @12OunceEpilogue for a fantastic job and turnaround

Please leave us a review (5* only, please & thank you), tell your mates, and leave us comments in the thread (feedback on the episode, call out how wrong we are, or just say hi)

 

[Alock1]

Apologies for the censored rant folks

@Duafc shows how it's done immediately after with a much more professional take

If there's one thing about being back on the pod it's how far my articulation & vocab has fallen since lockdown

 

[UmbroDays]

Enjoyed it - thanks, but should have waited until the Liverpool match had finished!

 

[Vault Dweller]

This week, Jamie @Vault Dweller, Colm @Duafc and Alex (me) congratulate Jose on a well deserved win for Spurs at Old Trafford. Jamie makes his United Hour hosting debut to chew over our disgrace of a performance as we tear into everybody and everything at the club, and try to dissect just what happened.

Subscribe & listen on iTunes/Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever get your pods by searching for United Hour

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Transistor: https://share.transistor.fm/s/16a54b4d

As always, a huge thanks to the editor @12OunceEpilogue for a fantastic job and turnaround

Please leave us a review (5* only, please & thank you), tell your mates, and leave us comments in the thread (feedback on the episode, call out how wrong we are, or just say hi)

Enjoyed making my hosting debut lads, and it was very cathartic after the shambles of yesterday

Remember and leave us a review! Shows how crap a host I am that I forgot to say that

 

[Duafc]

Enjoyed it - thanks, but should have waited until the Liverpool match had finished!

Thought that last night! Would probably have been a different vibe altogether.

 

[MS4]

Oh please.
Till martial got sent off, we were dominanting and Spurs defense was also shaky. If our defense had only been regularly bad and not exceptionally bad, we would have won

 

[2E_MUFC]

Anyone who says Sancho could still happen just want the clicks or likes. And with sky they just want the viewers.

 

[Alock1]

Oh please.
Till martial got sent off, we were dominanting and Spurs defense was also shaky. If our defense had only been regularly bad and not exceptionally bad, we would have won

Pre red card stats below. We definitely weren't dominating.. less shots, less possession, less dribbles, less tackles, less goals.

 

[VanGaalyTime]

Nice one boys! Always good to hear the thoughts right after the game and appreciate the effort getting it out so quickly, both to those on the pod and those editing. What happened this weekend? Are our players even fit? I think we're seeing that this high-pressure, playing out from the back style just isn't working any more. We saw Barca get battered last season by Bayern. Now, Liverpool and United both destroyed on the same day, basically trying to play the same way. You need peak fitness and a strong squad. United have neither.

I agree with most that the players just look so passionless and disinterested. It's so frustrating to see that as a fan. Who on the field is supposed to be inspiring/motivating our players?

 

[Rood]

Pre red card stats below. We definitely weren't dominating.. less shots, less possession, less dribbles, less tackles, less goals.

I thought it was pretty equal - it was a surprisingly open game and we were creating chances too. 3 mins before the red its 4 chances and 2 SOT each, they then had that couple of mins of pressure with a couple of corners and Bailly blocked shots which ramped up the stats in their favour. Without the Red we could easily have turned it around

Still there is no excuse for how feeble we were with 10 men

 

[Alock1]

I thought it was pretty equal - it was a surprisingly open game and we were creating chances too. 3 mins before the red its 4 chances and 2 SOT each, they then had that couple of mins of pressure with a couple of corners and Bailly blocked shots which ramped up the stats in their favour. Without the Red we could easily have turned it around

Still there is no excuse for how feeble we were with 10 men

We could have easily turned it around, as easily as they could have scored 4/5 goals anyway I reckon. They were sucking us in and would have got the same high number of high quality chances I'm sure.

 

[nikineil]

I am amazed at how articulate you lads are, so soon after the game. Its hardly kneejerk and I am loving the quick turnarounds. Get in lads. Love the cusses and the beeps! I was fuming first 30 minutes. But there was an absolute serenity at the end of it. Just an acceptance. That's not a good feeling to have.

 

[Alock1]

Nice one boys! Always good to hear the thoughts right after the game and appreciate the effort getting out to quickly, both to those on the pod and those editing. What happened this weekend? Are our players even fit? I think we're seeing that this high-pressure, playing out from the back style just isn't working any more. We saw Baca get battered last season by Bayern. Now, Liverpool and United both destroyed on the same day, basically trying to play the same way. You need peak fitness and a strong squad. United have neither.

I agree with most that the players just look so passionless and disinterested. It's so frustrating to see that as a fan. Who on the field is supposed to be inspiring/motivating our players?

Personally think it is much more about the weirdness of this season - last seasons disruption, no pre-season, no fans etc. rather than a change in footballing cycles where high press is out. You just need to back that press up with some quality players covering, which has always been the case.

 

[Duafc]

I am amazed at how articulate you lads are, so soon after the game. Its hardly kneejerk and I am loving the quick turnarounds. Get in lads. Love the cusses and the beeps! I was fuming first 30 minutes. But there was an absolute serenity at the end of it. Just an acceptance. That's not a good feeling to have.

Cheers bud! Think quicker turnarounds is the way to go so hopefully we can keep that up.

After a loss it’s great to get it out of your system ranting for an hour too! Makes a massive difference to my mood

 

[Alock1]

I am amazed at how articulate you lads are, so soon after the game. Its hardly kneejerk and I am loving the quick turnarounds. Get in lads. Love the cusses and the beeps! I was fuming first 30 minutes. But there was an absolute serenity at the end of it. Just an acceptance. That's not a good feeling to have.

Nice one @nikineil - totally get where you're coming from and we kinda touched on it on the podcast. If anything the apathy or acceptance is worse than the anger.

 

[Paxi]

Don’t bleep @Alock1 out, next time. I want to hear full unadulterated rage when situation calls for it.

When’s the transfer pod coming?

 

[Alock1]

Don’t bleep @Alock1 out, next time. I want to hear full unadulterated rage when situation calls for it.

When’s the transfer pod coming?

After the Newcastle game when we lose 2-0 I'll ring you and you can hear it first hand if you'd like

The guys @AR87 @Annihilate Now! @Rood are recording a transfer special tomorrow

 

[#07]

Very good pod. I did not think I would want to listen to any Man Utd pods after last weekend. However, I am glad I gave this a chance because I think you went into the reasons for our collapse in a considered way.

I don't think there has been enough analysis of how off the field issues around the club have, clearly, seeped into the dressing room. The players clearly have ambitions, expected the club to kick on after finishing third and the fact we have not has poisoned the atmosphere around the squad. There's a general malaise, a disillusionment around the team and you can see it. Some people can say its partly Ole's fault for not being able to get his players' heads right, I don't think we can ignore how the issues around the club have knocked the players off. Everything @Duafc said about the mental side was spot on.

I also agree with you boys that the manager has to be more realistic. Its all well and good trying to play like this is 2000 Man Utd but its not. High lines, relying on one vs one defending, trying to play out from the back. None of it is working for us right now. To continue to persist with it, with a style and approach our players just cannot execute, is setting us up for failure. Its not Man Utd football but Ole needs to retrench, tell the defenders to go long at the first sign of danger, make the team compact and protect the back line. Our squad has too many limitations to try and play on the front foot and dominate the ball.

For all his failings, and the fact he was not the man to address our issues, Mourinho was right in his analysis of the limits of this squad. With this set of players, we will be vulnerable against any team that has speed and aggression unless we set up with a low block and try and grind it out. Any team, not just the elite, even the likes of West Ham and Newcastle. If we give players like Bowen or Saint Maximim space to run into, or the opportunity to work the channel against our centre backs, we will lose those games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Cheers for all the responses troops and glad you are enjoying the pods

I am amazed at how articulate you lads are, so soon after the game. Its hardly kneejerk and I am loving the quick turnarounds. Get in lads. Love the cusses and the beeps! I was fuming first 30 minutes. But there was an absolute serenity at the end of it. Just an acceptance. That's not a good feeling to have.

Cheers mate! For my own part I find the pods very cathartic immediately after games and after talking to the lads I find peace

 

[Alock1]

Very good pod. I did not think I would want to listen to any Man Utd pods after last weekend. However, I am glad I gave this a chance because I think you went into the reasons for our collapse in a considered way.

I don't think there has been enough analysis of how off the field issues around the club have, clearly, seeped into the dressing room. The players clearly have ambitions, expected the club to kick on after finishing third and the fact we have not has poisoned the atmosphere around the squad. There's a general malaise, a disillusionment around the team and you can see it. Some people can say its partly Ole's fault for not being able to get his players' heads right, I don't think we can ignore how the issues around the club have knocked the players off. Everything @Duafc said about the mental side was spot on.

I also agree with you boys that the manager has to be more realistic. Its all well and good trying to play like this is 2000 Man Utd but its not. High lines, relying on one vs one defending, trying to play out from the back. None of it is working for us right now. To continue to persist with it, with a style and approach our players just cannot execute, is setting us up for failure. Its not Man Utd football but Ole needs to retrench, tell the defenders to go long at the first sign of danger, make the team compact and protect the back line. Our squad has too many limitations to try and play on the front foot and dominate the ball.

For all his failings, and the fact he was not the man to address our issues, Mourinho was right in his analysis of the limits of this squad. With this set of players, we will be vulnerable against any team that has speed and aggression unless we set up with a low block and try and grind it out. Any team, not just the elite, even the likes of West Ham and Newcastle. If we give players like Bowen or Saint Maximim space to run into, or the opportunity to work the channel against our centre backs, we will lose those games.

Good post @#07 - I'm all for Ole playing a discernible style, and okay with conceding the odd goal to a high line or playing from the back - that's to be accepted. But we've been doing it for some time and keep seeing the same results. There's also a lot of individual errors that perhaps aren't helped by the tactical setup, but should still be more than avoidable! He needs to get a handle on that and have his players step up.

Clearly the midfield is a big part of the problem - Bruno, Pogba and Matic only worked in that initial post lockdown period where many teams were not fit and there was almost no pressure on the ball. That we scored 3 goals in 3 or 4 games for the first time (setting a record) just showed that - because whilst we did play some good stuff, it shouldn't have been record breaking. There's just no balance there - and both Pogba and Matic have been known to blowing hot & cold.

Bruno needs to reign in slightly and look to retain possession and help us control a game. He definitely has that capable but always wants to look forward, speed things up and create a chance. Whilst I love that about him - it leaves us open withoutmore defensive minded midfielders alongside him.

 

[AR87]

Good post @#07 - I'm all for Ole playing a discernible style, and okay with conceding the odd goal to a high line or playing from the back - that's to be accepted. But we've been doing it for some time and keep seeing the same results. There's also a lot of individual errors that perhaps aren't helped by the tactical setup, but should still be more than avoidable! He needs to get a handle on that and have his players step up.

Clearly the midfield is a big part of the problem - Bruno, Pogba and Matic only worked in that initial post lockdown period where many teams were not fit and there was almost no pressure on the ball. That we scored 3 goals in 3 or 4 games for the first time (setting a record) just showed that - because whilst we did play some good stuff, it shouldn't have been record breaking. There's just no balance there - and both Pogba and Matic have been known to blowing hot & cold.

Bruno needs to reign in slightly and look to retain possession and help us control a game. He definitely has that capable but always wants to look forward, speed things up and create a chance. Whilst I love that about him - it leaves us open withoutmore defensive minded midfielders alongside him.

Our pressing hasn't been coordinated at all. It's the biggest issue we're having defensively, which is then compounded by the fact that Pogba and Matic are too slow in the middle, and in Pogba's case unaware when tracking runners and such. Even towards the end of last season we saw teams like Southampton and West Ham able to play through our press and then find oceans of space on either flank after switching play. Brighton constantly did the same before Spurs as well.

We need to either improve the coordination of our press, or play more conservatively out of possession. Also think Fred absolutely needs to be involved in the pivot given his combativeness and mobility if we're going to persist with such a high line. I also feel he gives us a bit speed of thought when playing out from the back that we desperately need.

 

[Alock1]

Agree with all that @AR87

We do talk about uncoordinated press and the need for Fred for balance on the pod!

 

[AR87]

Agree with all that @AR87

We do talk about uncoordinated press and the need for Fred for balance on the pod!

I haven't had the heart to listen to it yet

 

[#07]

Our pressing hasn't been coordinated at all. It's the biggest issue we're having defensively, which is then compounded by the fact that Pogba and Matic are too slow in the middle, and in Pogba's case unaware when tracking runners and such. Even towards the end of last season we saw teams like Southampton and West Ham able to play through our press and then find oceans of space on either flank after switching play. Brighton constantly did the same before Spurs as well.

We need to either improve the coordination of our press, or play more conservatively out of possession. Also think Fred absolutely needs to be involved in the pivot given his combativeness and mobility if we're going to persist with such a high line. I also feel he gives us a bit speed of thought when playing out from the back that we desperately need.

The two issues are related.

Our defenders are a) slow; b) positionally suspect and c) aware of a and b themselves. This means there is a degree of hesitation of stepping forward to support the press in midfield.

You are correct, the actual pressing itself is not as well drilled as it would be if Bielsa was our coach. However, the main issue is when the midfield goes the defence doesn't. That tends to leave a big gap in between defence and midfield that leaves us susceptible to balls between the lines.

I agree with your diagnosis and my instinct is, with this set of players, playing more conservatively is the answer. This squad is not Barcelona 2011. When we lose the ball it would be wiser to drop into our shape and play on the transition. We do not have enough quick/mobile players in the defensive areas of our team to try and play very differently IMO.

 

[AR87]

I agree with your diagnosis and my instinct is, with this set of players, playing more conservatively is the answer. This squad is not Barcelona 2011. When we lose the ball it would be wiser to drop into our shape and play on the transition. We do not have enough quick/mobile players in the defensive areas of our team to try and play very differently IMO.

Agreed. I think we need to find a balance between the extreme conservatism we took at times before Bruno's arrival, and the more cavalier approach post-lockdown.

 

[Alock1]

Lots of great points @#07

What's your take on Maguire, Bailley, Lindelof?

 

[#07]

Lots of great points @#07

What's your take on Maguire, Bailley, Lindelof?

If you combine the three of them into one player you would have a good centre back.

I was against us signing Maguire. For that kinda fee I thought we should have pushed the boat out a bit more and just got Koulibaly. For me, to use Keano's language, Maguire's a bluffer. We hear so much about his supposed leadership. However, I haven't seen any indication that he is capable of organising our defence. He frequently loses track of the action around him, not just when he's flying into the back of Bailly in an FA Cup semi, not just when he's dragging Luke Shaw out of Ndombele's way to let Spurs score. His positional awareness is absolutely shocking. I was glad to hear Rio and Evra expose him because for too long he's been allowed to get away with it because he's 'good lad' to the English media. Don't get me wrong, I'm English myself and I want my country not to be an embarrassment at the Euros (no chance of that with Southgate at the helm). However, the only reason why he's not regularly lambasted is because of the media halo.

Lindelof is pretty much the same player as Maguire but with less presence. Lindelof's reading of the game is an improvement on Maguire's. However, its relative. I'd describe Lindelof as having tunnel vision whereas Maguire is completely near sighted. They both want the game in front of them. Neither has any sense of danger. Again, Rio exposed that before the Brighton game when he criticised our back line for failing to sense danger. The difference between them is that Lindelof is just weak. Sometimes Maguire can bumble his way through with brute force and that bails him out. Lindelof on the other hand is easily bullied, in the air, on the ground, he's just so easy to deal with. A Troy Deeney or a Dominic Calvert-Lewin will destroy Lindelof without breaking a sweat. Also, for a supposed ball playing centre back Lindelof takes very poor care of the ball. He seems on edge whenever he gets it, and his gestures for players to come short when he's at the ball just encourages the opposition press.

Bailly, on paper, has the gifts to be a great centre back. However, you can tell we signed him while he had a very low number of professional games and that he hasn't developed well since. He still plays so raw. He can go from the sublime to the ridiculous and his decision making reeks of inexperience. If he had a commanding centre back next to him, who could guide him through games, I am confident Bailly would grow into a superb centre back. However, I increasingly worry that hapless Harry hasn't got the leadership ability to do that.

So I suppose what I'm saying is I don't have confidence in any of our centre backs. I suppose if I was forced I'd stick with Bailly and Maguire. However, my sense is the only way for this lot not to get horribly exposed is to play a LVG/Mourinho like deep double pivot, sit it in front of them and keep the wingers tucked in front of the centre backs. We should not trust any of them to play with a high line or to defend large amounts of space. They don't have good enough game intelligence to be left in situations where they need to make judgements about where to be to cover runners or cut out passes.

Honestly, I hope Tuanzebe recovers quickly. I think there's more composure in Axel than any of them.

 

[Alock1]

If you combine the three of them into one player you would have a good centre back.

Depends which third of each you combine! The other thirds and you'd have a dreadful defender!

Will read & reply to the rest shortly

 

[2 man midfield]

Good listen as usual

 

[#07]

Depends which third of each you combine! The other thirds and you'd have a dreadful defender!

Will read & reply to the rest shortly

Cant argue with that!

 

[Alock1]

If you combine the three of them into one player you would have a good centre back.

I was against us signing Maguire. For that kinda fee I thought we should have pushed the boat out a bit more and just got Koulibaly. For me, to use Keano's language, Maguire's a bluffer. We hear so much about his supposed leadership. However, I haven't seen any indication that he is capable of organising our defence. He frequently loses track of the action around him, not just when he's flying into the back of Bailly in an FA Cup semi, not just when he's dragging Luke Shaw out of Ndombele's way to let Spurs score. His positional awareness is absolutely shocking. I was glad to hear Rio and Evra expose him because for too long he's been allowed to get away with it because he's 'good lad' to the English media. Don't get me wrong, I'm English myself and I want my country not to be an embarrassment at the Euros (no chance of that with Southgate at the helm). However, the only reason why he's not regularly lambasted is because of the media halo.

Lindelof is pretty much the same player as Maguire but with less presence. Lindelof's reading of the game is an improvement on Maguire's. However, its relative. I'd describe Lindelof as having tunnel vision whereas Maguire is completely near sighted. They both want the game in front of them. Neither has any sense of danger. Again, Rio exposed that before the Brighton game when he criticised our back line for failing to sense danger. The difference between them is that Lindelof is just weak. Sometimes Maguire can bumble his way through with brute force and that bails him out. Lindelof on the other hand is easily bullied, in the air, on the ground, he's just so easy to deal with. A Troy Deeney or a Dominic Calvert-Lewin will destroy Lindelof without breaking a sweat. Also, for a supposed ball playing centre back Lindelof takes very poor care of the ball. He seems on edge whenever he gets it, and his gestures for players to come short when he's at the ball just encourages the opposition press.

Bailly, on paper, has the gifts to be a great centre back. However, you can tell we signed him while he had a very low number of professional games and that he hasn't developed well since. He still plays so raw. He can go from the sublime to the ridiculous and his decision making reeks of inexperience. If he had a commanding centre back next to him, who could guide him through games, I am confident Bailly would grow into a superb centre back. However, I increasingly worry that hapless Harry hasn't got the leadership ability to do that.

So I suppose what I'm saying is I don't have confidence in any of our centre backs. I suppose if I was forced I'd stick with Bailly and Maguire. However, my sense is the only way for this lot not to get horribly exposed is to play a LVG/Mourinho like deep double pivot, sit it in front of them and keep the wingers tucked in front of the centre backs. We should not trust any of them to play with a high line or to defend large amounts of space. They don't have good enough game intelligence to be left in situations where they need to make judgements about where to be to cover runners or cut out passes.

Honestly, I hope Tuanzebe recovers quickly. I think there's more composure in Axel than any of them.

I agree with absolutely everything you said in this post mate.

The point about a more experienced centre-back is a great point. You use to see it with Smalling and Evans who looked fantastic for the most part alongside Vidic or Rio. Look at Joe Gomes. Clearly he is a talented centre back but would he have developed as he has without VVD next to him?

 

[#07]

I agree with absolutely everything you said in this post mate.

The point about a more experienced centre-back is a great point. You use to see it with Smalling and Evans who looked fantastic for the most part alongside Vidic or Rio. Look at Joe Gomes. Clearly he is a talented centre back but would he have developed as he has without VVD next to him?

Yeah, those were the examples I had in mind.

Shame that we don't have anyone like that in our squad. Not just at centre back but across the team. Bruno is the only player we have that elevates the players around him. Fingers crossed Cavani also has some real leadership qualities.

 

[Alock1]

Yeah, those were the examples I had in mind.

Shame that we don't have anyone like that in our squad. Not just at centre back but across the team. Bruno is the only player we have that elevates the players around him. Fingers crossed Cavani also has some real leadership qualities.

The lack of leadership has been astounding as it has been so apparent ever since that Moyes season and the gradual losses of Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Giggs & co. Even Carrick later, and the only real leader since has been Ibra! As much as third season meltdown is always on the cards under Mou (especially after a lack of backing in that specific window), I do wonder how that season may have panned if Ibra had been there. Even though I think Mourinho's departure was overdue, I'm not sure the players would have played and responded the same had he still been at the club.

Pogba in particular has suffered a lot since Ibra left for me.

 

[#07]

The lack of leadership has been astounding as it has been so apparent ever since that Moyes season and the gradual losses of Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Giggs & co. Even Carrick later, and the only real leader since has been Ibra! As much as third season meltdown is always on the cards under Mou (especially after a lack of backing in that specific window), I do wonder how that season may have panned if Ibra had been there. Even though I think Mourinho's departure was overdue, I'm not sure the players would have played and responded the same had he still been at the club.

Pogba in particular has suffered a lot since Ibra left for me.

It is deeply concerning. Plus, its hard to see where the leadership is coming from. Maybe some of the younger lads will grow into leadership roles over the years ahead? Its not obvious to me that they will though. Bruno is the only player who plays like the red shirt fits him and isn't just a bit too big or too heavy.

I'm sure, like myself, you remember 1995/96. It was tough for those kids coming into the squad, which had just lost big characters like Hughes and Ince. However, there were still enough big characters around the place to guide them through. Big Pete was part of that squad, Gary Pallister was part of that squad, Steve Bruce albeit on a downward trajectory was part of that squad, Roy Keane was part of that squad, Eric Cantona pretty much won us game after game following Christmas of that year. Even someone like Irwin who wasn't like an in your face player, always played and conducted himself with authority. Plus none of those players was easily shaken or afraid to get stuck in. The young lads coming through had experience to lean on. Where's the experience in our squad?

The only experience of winning is experience we've bought in, and you'd argue very few of those players are born generals. Its not a great position to be in.