"United over-performed last season" is ETH finding excuses or facing facts?

fastwalker

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Back in 2013/14 I remember two comments made by David Moyes that became symptomatic of his unsuitability for the role of Manchester United manager. The first was when he stated that United need to be "hard to beat" and the second was when he announced that Liverpool were "favourites" to win at Old Trafford [basically throwing in the towel before a ball was even kicked].

Now, in the his post match interview, following defeat by Nottingham Forest, Erik Ten Hag has stated that Manchester United "over-performed last season".


Is he stating the facts or is he finding any excuse for his inability to fix failure?
 

sullydnl

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He's obviously correct. Relative to the predictions of the betting markets, the media and even this forum, we clearly did better than was anticipated last season.
 

DWelbz19

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The argument could certainly be made, but I think it was about what you would really expect a decent manager with the resources to do. A top 4 finish, the weakest cup won, but conceded a few thumpings. Things got pretty ugly post World Cup/Carabao final.
 

pascell

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Top 4 should be the very bare minimum, especially after him having £200m to spend on players last summer, he's making excuses as he doesn't know how to put this right, apart from spend more money. He's a poor coach and tactician who should have received his p45 a long time ago.

The longer he sticks around, the worse its going to get.
 

Winrar

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I say it's both.

Nobody really expected us to finish top4 especially after the 4-0 vs Brentford so he's technically correct on what he said.

But was it not his goal to elevate us and raise the standards as time went on and we made more investments on players he wanted? Why should we settle to be a top6-8 team?
 

JuriM

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Top 4 should be the very bare minimum, especially after him having £200m to spend on players last summer, he's making excuses as he doesn't know how to put this right, apart from spend more money. He's a poor coach and tactician who should have received his p45 a long time ago.

The longer he sticks around, the worse its going to get.
200m doesn't quarantee you shit in 2023, look at every top 10 clubs last 10 signings and say which of them have had 9/10 of them be 10/10 of what they expected that to have. None. So 200m isn't anything anymore, it's pennies.
 

Nickelodeon

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That’s quite poor. Even if he believes that, stating that we over performed when we finished 3rd and won the Carabao Cup is quite ridiculous. It’s obviously said to protect himself but doesn’t seem as sinister as when Jose says similar stuff.
 

Bobski

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He can't use that excuse with how poor the overall standard has been in the league this season.
 

Zen86

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We overachieved in the sense that we were good for half a season, give or take, and still won some silverware.
 

Revan

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He is right but not on the way he thinks We ended higher in the table than we should have (xPTS was 6th and we finished third). So based on how we played, we overperformed in the table.

We are actually over performing this season too. Based on how we have played, we should be in the bottom half of the table, probably fighting relegation.
 

2 man midfield

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We over achieved relative to where we started the season, and how we finished it. The bit in the middle was great.
 

Skills

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He is right but not on the way he thinks We ended higher in the table than we should have (xPTS was 6th and we finished third). So based on how we played, we overperformed in the table.

We are actually over performing this season too. Based on how we have played, we should be in the bottom half of the table, probably fighting relegation.
This.
 

Paul778

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This is ETH going off script. No matter how much man utd have fallen, for the annointed one who has come in and for the most part got everything he has wanted...

... to then say we overperformed last season is tantamount to saying he's not up to the job.

He has had a lot of injuries granted but last nights display was 100% on him. His tactical setup all season has been terrible and he has stubbornly persisted with it. A manager needs to find a way for his team to play and he hasn't achieved that.

Stubborn is not a great quality in a top manager. Ingenuity is. Give these players a system they can understand, believe in and give them the confidence they need to perform.
 

pascell

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200m doesn't quarantee you shit in 2023, look at every top 10 clubs last 10 signings and say which of them have had 9/10 of them be 10/10 of what they expected that to have. None. So 200m isn't anything anymore, it's pennies.
It's gets the manager players to play his style of play, what he deems fit to win games, as a result getting us top 4 which should have been the bare minimum.

Do you think the club could consistently keep spending £200m without getting CL football without FFP becoming a problem?

At what point of spending millions and millions do you feel top 4 should have been the minimum? You accepting mediocrity and dismissing the amount he's spent is part of the problem we face, some fans have lowered their expectations and standards way to low.
 

AndySmith1990

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Yeah yeah, just like finishing 2nd was Mourinhos greatest achievement.

Take ownership of the issues and be accountable for your failings instead of trying to deflect attention and live off some past achievement. You're managing Manchester United and have transfer & wage budgets greater than almost every manager. Hooray for you for finishing in the top 3, incredible stuff
 

RedUnited86

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Over performed in what sense? Top 4? That should have been expected.

Won a cup? We had to beat Villa, Charlton, Burnley, Forest and Newcastle to lift that illustrious piece of silverware. Had we come up against any of the other big teams we'd have had our arse handed to us.

He's out of his depth and is blaming everyone but himself. He needs to feck off back to the joker league he came from.
 

NotoriousISSY

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Was having this conversation with my Liverpool supporting barber earlier who made an excellent point.

After the 2-1 at OT last season he said something along the lines of “these boys can play, eh?”

So which one is it, did we overachieve or is the squad good enough to play and beat teams like Liverpool? I don’t think it can be both on the basis of last season, especially when the general consensus is this is a poor PL season at the top of the table. Arsenal’s being unable to shake off the losses to midtable sides will gift the title back to City who are also better than Liverpool in every possible way.
 

Skills

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Was having this conversation with my Liverpool supporting barber earlier who made an excellent point.

After the 2-1 at OT last season he said something along the lines of “these boys can play, eh?”

So which one is it, did we overachieve or is the squad good enough to play and beat teams like Liverpool? I don’t think it can be both on the basis of last season, especially when the general consensus is this is a poor PL season at the top of the table. Arsenal’s being unable to shake off the losses to midtable sides will gift the title back to City who are also better than Liverpool in every possible way.
The one where Liverpool came to old Trafford and had 71% of the ball, and we played them like some team down in the relegation zone?
 

BeltUp

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Was having this conversation with my Liverpool supporting barber earlier who made an excellent point.

After the 2-1 at OT last season he said something along the lines of “these boys can play, eh?”

So which one is it, did we overachieve or is the squad good enough to play and beat teams like Liverpool? I don’t think it can be both on the basis of last season, especially when the general consensus is this is a poor PL season at the top of the table. Arsenal’s being unable to shake off the losses to midtable sides will gift the title back to City who are also better than Liverpool in every possible way.
It's a group of players who can play when they want to but can't do it week in, week out.
 

LawCharltonBest

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Wasn’t he just saying it as in “we did better than you expected us to last season, and this season worse than you expected” kind of way?

How I took it
 

Irwin99

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No problem with those quotes, he's probably right. Far more disappointed in the United DNA quotes earlier in the season.

Sometimes a league position isn't always the best indicator of progress and that works both ways in interpretations of progress. We saw that under Ole and also Jose's 81 points tally when clearly to anyone who was watching Liverpool were getting better and better at that point, despite finishing below us in the league.

We had a really good run of form from the Spurs game at OT until the league cup final and we probably got a bit carried away.
 

astracrazy

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From where we were a season before I think if we are honest last season was better than expected. Poor for Man Utd standards, but progress.

But for him to say it is an excuse. It's something I would expect from a team who normally fight bottom of the league but just slipped into Europe.
 

Blood Mage

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He used a system that worked last season and didn't just surrender the midfield in every game. We weren't great but we were solid enough to get by.

He owes us an explanation as to why he switched to this new idiotic system which is getting torn apart every fecking week. And why he replaced De Gea with an inferior goalkeeper and bought Mason Mount when those resources could have been spent much better elsewhere.
 

tjb

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Over performed in what sense? Top 4? That should have been expected.

Won a cup? We had to beat Villa, Charlton, Burnley, Forest and Newcastle to lift that illustrious piece of silverware. Had we come up against any of the other big teams we'd have had our arse handed to us.

He's out of his depth and is blaming everyone but himself. He needs to feck off back to the joker league he came from.
Uniyed fans have been really naive when it comes to Ten Haag because they see him as mild-mannered due to his general demeanor.

However, when you actually take a look at his actions and a few of his press conferences, its quite clear this guy has been in survival mode since September. He's not working with the squad as much as he likes to suggest and has been taking drastic steps to secure his job. He's been using the line of the board having trust in him as a shield, not as a representation of actual fact, and people have been buying into it because he's Ten Haag.

This guy has been using a system that hasn't been working and outside of experimenting with a diamond against Brighton, hasn't even attempted to try something for the good of the team. The quick fix for him was to try and bypass the midfield and play long balls between late October and early December. It may have kept him his job, but it cost us the Champions League.

Fans have been so on edge to blame the players that they can't see that they are actually being set up to fail in our current system. Hojlund does not receive any service. Bruno has not been able to really get in creative positions, particularly when playing with Mctominay as he ends up covering him in midfield in an attempt to try and progress play. Our wingers don't get much support from our full backs, making it far harder for them to beat them one on one than they should find it ( except Antony, who doesn't even try). Our defensive midfielder is constantly left isolated, putting him under massive strain in transition. Our full backs are tasked with being in too many positions at the same time, which doesn't allow them to perform any of their duties as effectively as they should. Dalot can't be stepping into midfield and overlapping at the same time. Our centre backs are constantly forced wide to cover for the gaps left at full back or in midfield. Add all this to the fact that the ball moves slowly when building from the back and is just as slow when trying to overload the flanks rather than crossing early. These are tactical failures.

Hojlund can't get chances because even when we're in attacking areas, we try to combine to create free spaces on the flanks. This dedicates numbers and time. Time we usually don't have the pleasure of getting, leading to turnovers and a failed attack. Hence Hojlund doesn't get enough chances. Before this even occurs, we spend ages playing the ball out slowly looking for mismatches, despite building up slow. This again takes ages and leaves our attackers marked out even when they do receive the ball. Fans then blame them for not being able to keep the ball, despite the high pressure they face due to playing a ready set defence.

At the end of these games, Ten Haag blames injuries (suggesting he doesn't have the personnel), energy or consistency. Yet my belief is that a good system makes it easy for the team as a whole and players in their positions to perform well. For example, Valencia under Fergie was still always a limited player. He required space and time and his technique wasn't awesome. Yet United moved the ball quickly enough that he could find that space and hit the byline to provide his quick crosses. He had the stamina, energy and determination to keep doing this despite his weaknesses elsewhere, and Fergie's system put him in a great space to succeed. That's what good systems and coaching does, yet our fans are always fixed on blaming players who are literally struggling to combine with each other effectively, yet are able to do so for their national teams. All that tells me is that the system has been or is dysfunctional, and our players are being sacrificed by fans and the manager to save his job. Let's be honest, if people didn't have the view of some of our players and weren't so keen on ensuring the manager succeeds ( which is not their job), ETH should have been fired in November.
 

fastwalker

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That’s quite poor. Even if he believes that, stating that we over performed when we finished 3rd and won the Carabao Cup is quite ridiculous. It’s obviously said to protect himself but doesn’t seem as sinister as when Jose says similar stuff.
Totally agree with you. ETH's comment should concern every Manchester United fan. He is beginning to sound like a manager who has run out of ideas and who does not believe in his ability to fix the problem. Even if he believed it, why say it? Why not say that last season was a benchmark against which we aspire to or want to exceed? Instead, he is suggesting that what we have seen so far this season is the norm. I find that hard to accept.
 

Malone_Post

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He’s spent his whole tenure talking about raising standards at the club, while simultaneously lowering standards to defend the job he’s doing.

He’s in complete self preservation mode and needs to be put out of his misery. We’re at the end game and we all know it. We’ve seen it with Moyes, LVG, Jose & Ole. There's only one way this story ends.
 

Rista

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It would be like Ten Hag finishing 7th this season, getting sacked and then the next guy finishing 3rd next season boasting about how he overperformed. Yeah, not really. The only way we overperformed last season was in terms of luck, not actual performances. The club finished 3rd, 2nd, 6th before he arrived. He's trying to make it sound like the players are shit and he did wonders. I don't see how can anyone read this or the "we can't play like Ajax" and be optimistic about him.
 

stevoc

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No we underperformed the season before he came. We finished 6th which looks unlikely this season, so if he really believes that which I doubt essentially he's saying he spent the best part of £500m to regress the team.

Excuses nothing more.
 

Sunny Jim

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I say it's both.

Nobody really expected us to finish top4 especially after the 4-0 vs Brentford so he's technically correct on what he said.

But was it not his goal to elevate us and raise the standards as time went on and we made more investments on players he wanted? Why should we settle to be a top6-8 team?
Came to post more or less the same.
That is a job of a top manager to get more of his players than ecpected.

What worries me is that he does not learn. His midfield set up is suicidal.
 

Ali Dia

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He used a system that worked last season and didn't just surrender the midfield in every game. We weren't great but we were solid enough to get by.

He owes us an explanation as to why he switched to this new idiotic system which is getting torn apart every fecking week. And why he replaced De Gea with an inferior goalkeeper and bought Mason Mount when those resources could have been spent much better elsewhere.
Mostly he should have bought a striker with the Antony money and used Amad Sancho Pellistri and Rashford on the wings. Spending 70 on Casemiro in a summer where Bellingham and Camavinga Tonali Rice and whoever else were up for sale is also very poor. Mount i understand and I stand by that. He’s a decent mix of Fred who I think we really miss right now and McT who is and always has been awful, and was allowing for the phasing out of two players for the price of one. You can’t really predict injuries but to be fair he’d been injured most of the season before too. Antony is the big mark against him. He’s been shite. His management of Rashford (who has previous form for playing like this) Bruno and Sancho has been really poor this season. It’s a free for all with excuse after excuse.

plus points: Martinez is a good signing at a good age. Mainoo. Garnacho. Rasmus will eventually become a good player if we come up with better ways to find him.
 
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tjb

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No we underperformed the season before he came. We finished 6th which looks unlikely this season, so if he really believes that which I doubt essentially he's saying he spent the best part of £500m to regress the team.

Excuses nothing more.
For me, this is where both the media and our fans annoy me when assessing him.

When you put our squad of players in the middle of last season and described the starting individuals, a lot of fans would have expected them to compete higher in the table.
We literally have Varane, Licha, Shaw, Onana, Casemiro, Bruno and Rashford. These players were all considered world class in some shape or form over the last 2 seasons.
When you then add the hype around youth and the expectations of the rest of the group: Dalot, Malacia, AWB, Eriksen, Mount, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, Amad, Maguire and Lindelof.
This team should not be that bad.At the moment, no team outside of City has 11 pheonomenal players. We literally see Arsenal playing Nketiah, Tomiyasu and Ben White consistently. Liverpool play Curtis Jones, Harvey Elliot and Endo. They also have problems with their attackers, yet we all still have expectations regarding them challenging. This imperfect team can come to United and beat us 7-0. This team can have people celebrating and extending a manager's stay due to a draw.

I'm not even bringing up Spurs or Aston Villa's squads, which would have been considered poorer than us by everybody prior to the season.

Also add this to the fact that we finished last in a group containing Galatasaray and Copenhagen, both of whom are significantly worse than us on paper.

Not only does he not have the right to make these comments. I think it's a disgrace that he's even in position to be making them. For me, him being in place is a sign of the weakness that has plagued us for the last ten years. I don't think he's a good tactician. I don't think he's a good in-game manager. I don't think he's a good squad manager. I don't think he instill's confidence. I don't think he's been improving players. I just see a man clinging on to a job that he doesn't deserve to still have. But due to his Ajax links and our current mind-set of self pitying pessimism, our fans also don't seem, people are ok with wasting yet another season. Sack him in November, and we may very well have been in the title race given the lack of consistency from there. A more optimistic, ambitious team would have done this and used the January window one or two positions that need an immediate boost, which would have increased the strength of our squad for a challenge. I remember in the winter of 2013, still believing that Moyes could turn it around and have us in the title race due to how much trust I had in Fergie to that prior. In the winter of 2012, we didn't have Casemiro, Bruno, Varane, Rashford. We were playing Carrick and Jones in midfield. Evans and an aging Rio in defence. Welbeck/Chicarito up front. Yet with Fergie, if in the position we were in in November, everyone would have believed that we could still challenge for the league and be in the champions league. They could trust that Fergie could put those players in position to succeed despite certain limitations or injuries.

Those are what standards look like. Things that our club and fanbase seem to have forgotten about due to the endless concept of a rebuild. This isn't basketball, rebuilds don't exist in football. Teams evolve by spending money, implementing tactics and optimizing players in existing squads, particularly if they were bought for significant figures. Those evolutions are season to season and don't require 5 years to see changes and playing style improvements . Despite being the closest thing to a rebuild in premier league history, City under Mancini would not have kept him if he hadn't consistently improved results and playing style. He would have been sacked if he spent money on Antony instead of getting Aguero and Silva. Regardless of whether he was to blame for the price or not. That's accountability, something we haven't held managers to for the last ten years, yet expect anything more than a rollercoaster.
 

Chipper

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Depends exactly what we're talking about.

Finishing 3rd was an over-performance based on expectations. I also think we got fortunate. We won many games narrowly and in unconvincing fashion. We arguably didn't merit 75 points and a comfortable 3rd place finish based off our displays so our results perhaps outperformed our play too.

Were our actual on-the pitch displays better than expected? I'm not so sure. We weren't that great.
 

Abraxas

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I think the problem with the logic he is employing is that yes while he may be fundamentally correct that they overachieved last season by winning a trophy and getting a reasonable league finish, the fact is the situation is more dynamic than employing the same set of standards to every season. When you are given free reign over a sizeable transfer budget you are expected to utilise it for the betterment of results and performances. We're not just chucking over hundred million quid around for the fun of it. If we cannot even lay claim to maintaining the standards of the previous season, nevermind actually improving then it becomes quite hollow to be invoking this "overachieving" argument.

In my mind, overachieving last season and producing an acceptable standard this season based on significant investment should at least materialise a comparable result, whereas we appear to have actually gone backwards. Which is something you can never afford to do at a top club.
 

Zed 101

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If you look at our squad I think some of the players are overhyped, but then at their best some of our players are capable at the highest level, but at the worst our players should be performing better than we have done all season.

Last season I think we performed about as we should have given the new manager and system, we finished where we did as much due to other teams underperforming rather than us overperforming.

Bottom line I think there are other managers that would be working with the strengths and weaknesses of the squad in order to get performances, whilst they take time to get the players and ethos they want, seems ETH just wants to do his thing come hell or high water and damn the consequences.... yes we have had horrendous injury issues, but for example last night which team had the better 11 players? but Forrest played as a team exploiting their strengths....
 

Mingus

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For me, this is where both the media and our fans annoy me when assessing him.

When you put our squad of players in the middle of last season and described the starting individuals, a lot of fans would have expected them to compete higher in the table.
We literally have Varane, Licha, Shaw, Onana, Casemiro, Bruno and Rashford. These players were all considered world class in some shape or form over the last 2 seasons.
When you then add the hype around youth and the expectations of the rest of the group: Dalot, Malacia, AWB, Eriksen, Mount, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, Amad, Maguire and Lindelof.
This team should not be that bad.At the moment, no team outside of City has 11 pheonomenal players. We literally see Arsenal playing Nketiah, Tomiyasu and Ben White consistently. Liverpool play Curtis Jones, Harvey Elliot and Endo. They also have problems with their attackers, yet we all still have expectations regarding them challenging. This imperfect team can come to United and beat us 7-0. This team can have people celebrating and extending a manager's stay due to a draw.

I'm not even bringing up Spurs or Aston Villa's squads, which would have been considered poorer than us by everybody prior to the season.

Also add this to the fact that we finished last in a group containing Galatasaray and Copenhagen, both of whom are significantly worse than us on paper.

Not only does he not have the right to make these comments. I think it's a disgrace that he's even in position to be making them. For me, him being in place is a sign of the weakness that has plagued us for the last ten years. I don't think he's a good tactician. I don't think he's a good in-game manager. I don't think he's a good squad manager. I don't think he instill's confidence. I don't think he's been improving players. I just see a man clinging on to a job that he doesn't deserve to still have. But due to his Ajax links and our current mind-set of self pitying pessimism, our fans also don't seem, people are ok with wasting yet another season. Sack him in November, and we may very well have been in the title race given the lack of consistency from there. A more optimistic, ambitious team would have done this and used the January window one or two positions that need an immediate boost, which would have increased the strength of our squad for a challenge. I remember in the winter of 2013, still believing that Moyes could turn it around and have us in the title race due to how much trust I had in Fergie to that prior. In the winter of 2012, we didn't have Casemiro, Bruno, Varane, Rashford. We were playing Carrick and Jones in midfield. Evans and an aging Rio in defence. Welbeck/Chicarito up front. Yet with Fergie, if in the position we were in in November, everyone would have believed that we could still challenge for the league and be in the champions league. They could trust that Fergie could put those players in position to succeed despite certain limitations or injuries.

Those are what standards look like. Things that our club and fanbase seem to have forgotten about due to the endless concept of a rebuild. This isn't basketball, rebuilds don't exist in football. Teams evolve by spending money, implementing tactics and optimizing players in existing squads, particularly if they were bought for significant figures. Those evolutions are season to season and don't require 5 years to see changes and playing style improvements . Despite being the closest thing to a rebuild in premier league history, City under Mancini would not have kept him if he hadn't consistently improved results and playing style. He would have been sacked if he spent money on Antony instead of getting Aguero and Silva. Regardless of whether he was to blame for the price or not. That's accountability, something we haven't held managers to for the last ten years, yet expect anything more than a rollercoaster.
If we'd have sacked him in November the new manager would still have had no-one to pick except the remnants of "Open Heart Surgery FC", a few greenhorns and a couple of emergency defensive signings who were only meant for cover. Antony was a mistake, but was more on the club for having no alternatives and then overpaying out of desperation. Ten Hag's other outfield signings have been injured most of the season.

Even when the injuries subside will we get the Casemiro from last season or from earlier this season? Varane and Eriksen still won't be able to play more than one game a week.

Garnacho, Mainoo and Amad (now the latter 2 are free of injury) are an encouraging glimpse of the future but were never going to win us the league this season.
Rebuilding is something Liverpool and Arsenal have successfully carried out and Ten Hag did at Ajax twice (with a functioning structure above him).
 

sebsheep

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I think we did as expected really. Top 4 but way off a title challenge and good runs in the league cup (winning with the teams we faced is pretty reasonable), runners up in the FA cup and a bit disappointing in the Europa.
That's not an overachievement.
 

Globule

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We didn't over perform. Over achieve, possibly, but even when over achieving last season our performances were not great for large chunks of it.

We got lucky that Rashford hit one of his purple patches, but when your team is built around inconsistent and streaky players, your form is going to be inconsistent and streaky.

Last season's results were not surprising because that is what these players are capable of. But nor is this season a surprise because those same players are equally capable of serving up the s*** we've endured this year.
 

Plant0x84

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while he may be fundamentally correct that they overachieved last season by winning a trophy and getting a reasonable league finish, the fact is the situation is more dynamic than employing the same set of standards to every season.
You are correct, but the expectations for this season were based on overachieving last season.

Top 4 and a cup was excellent last season, but as others have pointed out we still didn’t always play great football. The reasonable expectation this season would have been a similar outcome but much more coherent and more entertaining style of play.

However, some people unironically thought we would have a tilt at the title which was never going to happen, so I think ten Hags expectations knowing his squad would probably be more realistic than the fans, but maybe be not so ambitious. It’s all relative.
 

Lay

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
20,032
Location
England
We play like a lower table team so yeah, we overachieved.

Standards are in the gutter and the club is a mess. Here’s to another decade