United's Pressing (Copied from newbies)

Basa1987

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I saw this really interesting stat on Twitter.

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Apparently, United are the best at pressing in the entire league (since Jan'15). I was very surprised at this stat. This is not something that jumps out when watching us play. I would've expected a team like Southampton to be way better than us.

Are LvG's methods finally working? On the contrary, are we spending too much of our energy on our pressing leaving nothing in the tank for attacking movement (apart from today)?

Also, Liverpool are not that good at pressing. Very contrary to the general image portrayed in the media.

Man City seem to be very good at pressing despite hitting the doldrums recently. It also might be due to the fact that they have had to play Fernando and Fernandinho a lot recently, two DM's more prone to pressing rather than the mostly offensive minded Toure.
 
I am quite surprised at that - but I am not convinced that that statistic (passes per defensive action) is a really accurate measure of how well a team presses, I am sure there is some correlation and it is a decent indicator though.
 
It just means teams need less passes to have shots against us.

I don't think we a good pressing team just yet.
 
"Passes allowed per defensive action": That only means passes between attempts at tackling, right, and not passes between successful tackles? So it's entirely possible to try to tackle often and not succeed.

Also, noticed that Chelsea and Liverpool have not trailed in a match this year.
 
Whatever be the veracity and depth of that stat. Yesterday, was one of the finest pressing performances United have produced in recent years. It was phenomenal.
 
Hmm interesting indeed. Not quite sure what to make of it. Just caught me by surprise.
 
Just coming back to this. I remember when we were having our arses handed to us by Bilbao, when Fergie was still in charge, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about why we can't press the opposition in the same way. This went as far as people suggesting maybe we needed a new manager, who could implement this more modern approach to football. Klopp and Bielsa being the obvious examples.

Well, it looks as though we've got what we wanted. So far this season, our aggressive pressing has been a real feature. The beauty of this approach means a turnover can allow us to attack against a backline that is unprepared and out of position. Which is something we rarely do when we're going through one of those long spells of knocking it around between our midfield and defence. Van Gaal talks about all the different phases of the game and I'm starting to see what he's on about. In a weird way, our most devastating attacks can start when the opposition have the ball. It was how we scored our only PL goal so far this season and I think/hope we'll see more and more goals scored like this as the season goes on.

So yeah, pressing. We're doing it and doing it well.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just coming back to this. I remember when we were having our arses handed to us by Bilbao, when Fergie was still in charge, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about why we can't press the opposition in the same way. This went as far as people suggesting maybe we needed a new manager, who could implement this more modern approach to football. Klopp and Bielsa being the obvious examples.

Well, it looks as though we've got what we wanted. So far this season, our aggressive pressing has been a real feature. The beauty of this approach means a turnover can allow us to attack against a backline that is unprepared and out of position. Which is something we rarely do when we're going through one of those long spells of knocking it around between our midfield and defence. Van Gaal talks about all the different phases of the game and I'm starting to see what he's on about. In a weird way, our most devastating attacks can start when the opposition have the ball. It was how we scored our only PL goal so far this season and I think/hope we'll see more and more goals scored like this as the season goes on.

So yeah, pressing. We're doing it and doing it well.
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Yeah, it's extremely interesting because even our "pressing" seems much more organised/structured, than some of the other sides you mentioned and ones I can think of (Barca/Bilboa etc.). For instance, I believe Herrera summed it up well - he struggled to adapt to LvG's methods initially because Bielsa at Bilbao, drilled it in to them to go press and chase the ball. Whereas in LvG's system, you're not chasing the ball, but I believe every player has their own spaces/players to close down. (in a nutshell, I'm sure it's a bit more complicated than that).

But yeah, that transition phase between defending, winning the ball back and starting a quick counter against a disorganised defence is a key phase where we can take advantage.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just coming back to this. I remember when we were having our arses handed to us by Bilbao, when Fergie was still in charge, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about why we can't press the opposition in the same way. This went as far as people suggesting maybe we needed a new manager, who could implement this more modern approach to football. Klopp and Bielsa being the obvious examples.

Well, it looks as though we've got what we wanted. So far this season, our aggressive pressing has been a real feature. The beauty of this approach means a turnover can allow us to attack against a backline that is unprepared and out of position. Which is something we rarely do when we're going through one of those long spells of knocking it around between our midfield and defence. Van Gaal talks about all the different phases of the game and I'm starting to see what he's on about. In a weird way, our most devastating attacks can start when the opposition have the ball. It was how we scored our only PL goal so far this season and I think/hope we'll see more and more goals scored like this as the season goes on.

So yeah, pressing. We're doing it and doing it well.
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Not to mention we've got the players to do it now.

What is interesting though is even Michael Carrick is presses, something which just didn't happen. So yeah, LvG is getting some things right at least!
 
These sort of improvements are something that you normally don't perceive immediately (and focus on the more tangible stuff like goals scored/chances created). So yeah, there's clear progress and we'll reap the benefits from it over longer time than just LvG's tenure at United.
 
Trigg said:
Not to mention we've got the players to do it now.

What is interesting though is even Michael Carrick is presses, something which just didn't happen. So yeah, LvG is getting some things right at least!
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Certainly with Schneiderlin as well, perfect for the job. It is nice to see Carrick having a go as well, as you mention - he had a habit of backpedaling towards the goal at times, eyes fixed on the ball. That used to both scare and infuriate me!
 
Am I right in thinking that the stat is average passes by opposition before interception / possession is turned over? If that's the case it doesn't really mean anything. Look where Chelsea are on the table yet defensively last year they were awesome and they won the league. I wouldn't attach too much meaning to this tbh.
 
Green_Red said:
Am I right in thinking that the stat is average passes by opposition before interception / possession is turned over? If that's the case it doesn't really mean anything. Look where Chelsea are on the table yet defensively last year they were awesome and they won the league. I wouldn't attach too much meaning to this tbh.
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Got any other measurement for pressing?
 
Green_Red said:
Am I right in thinking that the stat is average passes by opposition before interception / possession is turned over? If that's the case it doesn't really mean anything. Look where Chelsea are on the table yet defensively last year they were awesome and they won the league. I wouldn't attach too much meaning to this tbh.
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They were great at containing other teams. Pressing is not the only way to have a good defence.
 
We're definitely better at winning the ball back which is great but to be honest I wouldn't say I've seen us become a pressing team.

We're too spaced out to really effectively press as a unit, you look at Barca who stay compact so as soon as they lose the ball they're on top of the opposition.

The stats presented here could also mean our midfield was simply being passed through or that teams countered against us or went long.
 
Unlikely lad said:
They were great at containing other teams. Pressing is not the only way to have a good defence.
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Yea but I mean, getting the ball off the opposition is one thing, but how many goals did United concede in that time and how many goals did they manage to score once they took possession? I think that's the important aspect of pressing. Its one thing to press and get the ball but what you do with the ball when you have it is far more important.

I get that its nice to see a stat like that but 99% of all stats are lies, the other 37% are made up, while 54% are complete bollix.
 
Green_Red said:
Yea but I mean, getting the ball off the opposition is one thing, but how many goals did United concede in that time and how many goals did they manage to score once they took possession? I think that's the important aspect of pressing. Its one thing to press and get the ball but what you do with the ball when you have it is far more important.

I get that its nice to see a stat like that but 99% of all stats are lies, the other 37% are made up, while 54% are complete bollix.
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We've conceded The least amount of goals in the league since November if what Neville said on MNF is correct
 
Green_Red said:
no but a stat like that shouldn't be used in isolation. It should be used with other stats to show the effectiveness of the pressing.
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Stats like us keeping three consecutive clean sheets and conceding the fewest amount of goals since November?

Anyway, I only bumped this thread because I was too lazy to start a new one. The post I wrote in the bump is based entirely on observation, nothing to do with stats of any kind.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Stats like us keeping three consecutive clean sheets and conceding the fewest amount of goals since November?

Anyway, I only bumped this thread because I was too lazy to start a new one. The post I wrote in the bump is based entirely on observation, nothing to do with stats of any kind.
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I didn't even look at the date of the post, the stats are months old.
 
Pressing is a very multifaceted thing to try and measure with a single statistic, but you can clearly see that we're doing it consistently and well on the pitch. I don't think it's particularly extreme - less full-on than 2009-11 Barca, or Bielsa's man-for-man Bilbao system, or Klopp's Dortmund - but it's exactly at the level I'd want, really. It's also nice to see that LVG is willing to adjust the press threshold to the opponent. We're allowing some opponents to have it three men from the back, some we're going for all over the pitch, some we're not really harrying until they start a proper attacking move.

People immediately forget about problems and weaknesses once they're solved, which is only natural. But if you compare us now to how we were under Moyes and in Fergie's last couple of seasons, we are playing dramatically better football. Right now we're worried that we don't have enough top-level strikers, or that the tempo of our passing isn't always quite fast enough. I remember when we were complaining that our central midfield was practically non-existent, or that we were completely incapable of keeping possession of the football even against the PL's weakest teams. We would let any opponent back us right into our box before anyone even tried to apply pressure or make a tackle. There were times when it looked like we were playing football that was ten years out of date. We've already come a really long way under Van Gaal.
 
Green_Red said:
Am I right in thinking that the stat is average passes by opposition before interception / possession is turned over? If that's the case it doesn't really mean anything. Look where Chelsea are on the table yet defensively last year they were awesome and they won the league. I wouldn't attach too much meaning to this tbh.
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Don't argue with the stats people. They are hugely turned on by this stuff. Recent statistical surveys reveal 57% of those aged under 25 and without sexual partners have a blazing hard on for PPDA numbers.
 
We certainly press a lot more than we used to and that's down to LVG. Actually in the spells we've played well this season I think it's been when we are pressing.

In the first 20 minutes against Newcastle we were buzzing around them. They didn't know what to do and we were in complete control during that time. Then we dropped off a bit and Newcastle gained a bit more control.

Maybe that's a fitness thing? So early in the season the players are still building up to top fitness. As the season goes on I do think we will press more and that's when we will start to improve.

I also don't think it helped that despite our bright start and pressing we didn't score. If we'd have scored it would have given the players that boost and I'm sure they'd have gotten a second wind to press for longer.
 
Those stats do back up the reason why the Utd - Spurs game was so awful this seadon. 2 of the best pressing teams going at each other was always going to be decided by a mistake.
 
Not THAT suprising for me. Didn't expect us to be top, but definately high up the list. In most the games we won last season, we effectied the high press very well, inparticular Ander Herrera. It is again a great freature of our game this season too, even better we look better drilled at it too.
 
Cassidy said:
Not THAT suprising for me. Didn't expect us to be top, but definately high up the list. In most the games we won last season, we effectied the high press very well, inparticular Ander Herrera. It is again a great freature of our game this season too, even better we look better drilled at it too.
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Yup, we're even better at it this season. Last season, out fullbacks didn't always commit to a high press. This season, both Shaw and Darmian are more than happy to press high up the pitch.
 
Ish said:
But yeah, that transition phase between defending, winning the ball back and starting a quick counter against a disorganised defence is a key phase where we can take advantage.
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Yeah I think Dortmund pretty much proved that. They were the best team in Europe at it for quite a while and had their best phase this in their last decade when they were absolutely excellent at it.
 
Barca84 said:
Don't argue with the stats people. They are hugely turned on by this stuff. Recent statistical surveys reveal 57% of those aged under 25 and without sexual partners have a blazing hard on for PPDA numbers.
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:lol:

The other 74%?
 
Green_Red said:
Am I right in thinking that the stat is average passes by opposition before interception / possession is turned over? If that's the case it doesn't really mean anything. Look where Chelsea are on the table yet defensively last year they were awesome and they won the league. I wouldn't attach too much meaning to this tbh.
Click to expand...

Well it's a stat about pressing and not really one about effective defending. It just simply means that Chelsea aren't doing much pressing which is definitely the case.
 
But there is another very interesting implication in those stats. It seems the better our pressing got, less PPDA, the more likely we were to draw or lose. :lol:

It's even worse for Arsenal for whom pressing seems to be some kind of short cut to losing a game. Or it simply means that they are vulnerable to teams which like to hoof the ball.
 
It's funny that you can sort of discern tactics from the numbers.

West Brom allow a high number of passes when defending, but so do Swansea. We wouldn't necessarily associate Swansea as defensive, just more a counter-oriented side, and we can see this when they are losing as we get a huge drop in these passes, whereas there is a less noticeable change in West Brom's style.
 
NoLogo said:
But there is another very interesting implication in those stats. It seems the better our pressing got, less PPDA, the more likely we were to draw or lose. :lol:

It's even worse for Arsenal for whom pressing seems to be some kind of short cut to losing a game. Or it simply means that they are vulnerable to teams which like to hoof the ball.
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i think it implies that teams are more aggressive in their pressing when they are losing because they want to recover the ball.
that is the PPDA is an effect of being in a losing position
 
NoLogo said:
Yeah I think Dortmund pretty much proved that. They were the best team in Europe at it for quite a while and had their best phase this in their last decade when they were absolutely excellent at it.
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They were great at it, indeed. But that tactic is probably best suited to a counter attacking team, versus a possession based system? Obviously in both systems, you'll be able to exploit it, but it's probably a more regular situation for a direct counter attacking team.
 
Ish said:
They were great at it, indeed. But that tactic is probably best suited to a counter attacking team, versus a possession based system? Obviously in both systems, you'll be able to exploit it, but it's probably a more regular situation for a direct counter attacking team.
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I don't think the way a team behaves when in possession needs to be linked to what they do when the other team has the ball. The way Van Gaal bangs on about the four "phases" makes me think he sees them as distinct too.
 
NoLogo said:
But there is another very interesting implication in those stats. It seems the better our pressing got, less PPDA, the more likely we were to draw or lose. :lol:

It's even worse for Arsenal for whom pressing seems to be some kind of short cut to losing a game. Or it simply means that they are vulnerable to teams which like to hoof the ball.
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:lol: You're mixing up cause and effect. Teams press more when they're drawing or losing than when they're winning and they can sit back and counter. It definitely makes sense.
 
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