Unprecedented downwards spiral in less than seven years….. what’s the root cause?

VivaRonaldo85

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Now that the dust has somewhat settled after last night’s EL disaster, it got me thinking…. And apologies in advance for the negativity, but I’d call it honesty.

Seven years ago we finished 2nd in the PL. Four years ago we finished 2nd (Covid year). Two years ago we finished 3rd. Nobody in their right minds could have foreseen that in the space of only two years, we would go from regular champions league place contenders (literally) to probably finishing 17th, fortunate not to be in a genuine relegation battle because of the 3 championship teams who were in the PL this season. Throw in to that, no European football for only the 2nd time in 30 odd years.

So what is the fundamental reason for this stark drop? I appreciate we’re not entitled to finish in the top 4 every season or even top 6, but this is truly stunning when you look at the league table.

In my opinion, I believe the jolt of the INEOS take over and the huge raft of changes throughout the club has fed through to the pitch. When you mix a cocktail of that negative feeling with some atrocious decisions on transfers (some before INEOS in their defence), take the £108.5 million on Hojilund & Zirzkee for example, and a truly awful decision on the previous manager and current manger in terms of their respective dismissal and appointment timings, managers by the way that play totally different styles/systems, it has created a toxic mix that is destroying the club.

Where do we turn now? I really don’t know. So what do we put this unprecedented spiral down to?
 
Hiring two poor managers from low level competition. They both amass the two worst league finishes in United's premier league history.
 
The spiral was born when the Glazers first took control, fortunately Ferguson and Gill were the adults in the room guiding the ship. Once Ferguson and Gill stepped down and the Glazers assumed full control, and gave Woodward full power, the rot began spreading. The rot has grown multiple roots and branches as of today.
 
Paul Pogba and his brand of disrespecting the club. As the highest paid highest profile individual in the team he was advertising to the rest of the team that standards dont matter. Still trying even now to shake that toxicity, with the baton being passed down through the club.

If there were more leaders in the club, outbursts like the one from Garnacho yesterday would have been self policed by the players. I know what Keane would have said to him.
 
Poor leadership from the owners and board. They make the decisions and have consistently shown themselves to have been clueless. Clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal would never have allowed this to happen because they are professionally run. We have the worst owners in football.
 
Shocking leadership which led to shocking recruitment and culture.

The snowball effect.
 
Root cause is the Glazers

That led to lack of investment in the team.
That led to an aging squad and lack of world class talent towards the end of Fergies reign.
That led to things quickly going tits up when Moyes took over.
The Glazers are responsible for Woodward, the numpty who thought he was in charge of an adult Disneyland.
Woodward is responsible for hiring the other numpties who negotiated so many of our disastrous transfers and contracts.
He built a culture epitimised by greed and lack of accountability. Players were desperate to hop aboard the United gravy train. Little effort.
Easy money. Fans will still applaud and sing their names regardless.
Arrogance from Woodward and fans alike: We're too big and too rich to fail. Let's throw more money at the problem every summer. Throw enough money at a manager and he's bound to succeed eventually, right?
Self righteousness: fans believing United are different and more special than any other club, and blindly backing shit managers somehow makes us better.

The root cause are the Glazers. But everyone associated with the club has had some part to play in our downfall. If only lessons would be learned.
 
Livewire1974 said:
Glazers
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This. The debt keeps increasing every year inhibiting spending, not only on players, but infastructure*, Carrington, equipment etc. Ronaldo summed it up when he said nothing had been modernised since he left in 2009.

We used to attract the best players, but when have we last attracted a WC player in their prime? Certainly not since Fergie. Fernandes is probably the best we have done, but who else was after him when we signed him? Is he a WC player? He certainly wasnt last night.

*The state of OT which when the parasites came in, was probably the best in the country, now its one of the worst, thats without mentioning the rain and instant waterfall.

I am wondering what next season brings, as I am worried we might not have hit rock bottom yet. The likes of Casemiro, Shaw, Onana etc will still be stinking the place up.
 
The root cause is Glazers. The steep downhill we experienced now started from their appointment of Murtough. Combined with COVID impact, they sacked Ole to abandon the grand plan and then hire ETH to completely destroy the squad and signed mediocre players extremely overpriced. Our financial situation deteriorated sharply. And, their selling of ownership took the rest of life out of this club and concluded in really bad timing. The mess left made INEOS a difficult start. INEOS just messed up the start.
Now, at least INEOS seems having a plan and changes are underway. Let’s see in two years where we are.
 
I honestly think next season will be a repeat of this, and we will be hoping the teams that come up are equally shite.
 
It's downstream from the Glazers: debt accumulation and a strategy stemming from that (in terms of sponsorships) along with the timebomb of repayments; appointments, micromanaging along with lack of care in other aspects; specifically not focusing on making the club 'modern' in terms of facilities and data and decision making pipelines; general culture.....

All the managers had flaws - ETH the biggest one in terms of his 'donut strategy', lack of understanding of the need for intensity, and his stubbornness around taking a lead on transfers (he wasn't required to do this) - but most of their large-scale mistakes came from exec structures giving them too much licence, which structures in turn are downstream from Glazers. League results (or games against PL opposition in general) have been largely rotten under Amorim, but when it comes to it, any manager trying to imprint their style and make demands of these players will struggle.

By this I mean Klopp, Guardiola, Enrique. Ancelotti would quit after a year- he'd probably have them about 3 places higher this season at a pinch with a more pragmatic style, but there'd be no development of style. A 'core' of players demonstrate lack of intensity, game understanding on the fly, unwillingness to train fitness (rather than 'glam muscles' at the gym) or study the game and their role instead of clubbing or gaming. Players at smaller clubs, players with lower profiles can adapt to a 343, or even coordinate a high-press; several of these players can't. Fans get transfixed by results (none of us wants to lose) and vent at the manager. But those managers haven't been supported by bringing in appropriate players, not awarding the signings unwieldy contracts, standing up for the manager sufficiently in the face of player pressure; saving managers from their own whims (as Liverpool did with Reus vs Salah signing). Again, that comes ultimately out of corporate mismanagement.

Fans indulging players in a way that doesn't happen at the likes of Madrid or Barcelona also doesn't help, e.g during talk of the most recent clear-out, there's been taking sides of ('unnamed) players over Amorim and the execs supporting him, as well as fans crying over Mainoo or Garnacho, even over Rashford, potentially leaving. I like Kobbie, but would he play often at City, or Liverpool (under their styles), or Arsenal for that matter? Villa even? There are questions about physicality as well as passing - I don't think it's a settled question, but it's certainly not a case of 'Amorim's system is wasting this player who'd otherwise be good for us'. His best games have been when the opposition sits back or when he's asked to operate in a fairly narrow space. There were numerous ETH games when he was caught against stronger, quicker midfielders and opponents were able to break and shoot at will. He might honestly be better in Italy, or Spain at a pinch. Likewise Garnacho, who 's up and down in terms of his output and doesn't seem to be developing his decision-making, irrespective of whether his crosses come from wide forward or a wide 10 position. Again, Barca love their home-growns too, but he wouldn't get that much leeway there, certainly not as a regular starter. Finally, Rashford has been known for years as emotionally immature, and having 1 good, 1 bad season, yet some people are desperate to keep him. A proper club would be decisive in selling him, having likely not awarded him such an albatross of a contract in the first-place ( Barca are the exception, whereby they 've got away with the latter).

Again, we can trace that back to management. INEOS have made their own independent errors, but the Glazers are the main contaminant. Sooner they're bought out and the club is scrubbed of them, the better.
 
United lack genuine experience in key areas…board/coaches/players.

So it’s mistake after mistake. Do that for 17 years and you end up (rightly) on the verge of relegation.
 
No structure, no plan, no leadership, no standards, no accountability.

All stems from the top, the owners have just tried throwing good money after bad to try and rescue the mess they created by letting idiots control the football side, spending ridiculous money and handing out stupid contracts.

Seriously, finishing 17th might be the best thing to happen for the club in the long run.
 
city-puma said:
I actually think two or three additions can transform our results.
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Realistically, who? Because the two we have been linked to are coming from a relegated side and one hovering around us. They will be fine additions but they probably cement us as mid-table at best. I don't think people realise just how strong the PL is.
 
7, 4 years ago we were nothing special. We could easily get to that level very quickly. The next level after that, or where we were 16/17 years ago, that’s where we are light years from.
 
groovyalbert said:
Realistically, who? Because the two we have been linked to are coming from a relegated side and one hovering around us. They will be fine additions but they probably cement us as mid-table at best. I don't think people realise just how strong the PL is.
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Strikers, cm, GK. Just imagine if we can score goals match after match…
 
Offside said:
7, 4 years ago we were nothing special. We could easily get to that level very quickly. The next level after that, or where we were 16/17 years ago, that’s where we are light years from.
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I’d take finishing second and being nothing special at the moment.
 
A lot of the reasons mentioned here are accurate but I’ve been thinking about something lately that is not a main factor, but a contributing one.

We don’t seem to have pride and conviction in our identity. Barcelona have a way of playing that they’re proud of. They attempt, not always successfully, but at least they attempt, to have that guide their transfers, coach appointments, and academy. It is not super rigid, but it is a set of principles that limits the search space.

We, on the other hand, seem unsure of what we are supposed to be. We bounce from a manager who is defensive and pragmatic, to a possession zealot, to a counterattacking guru. We go from a manager who loves a team of Daley Blinds to one who can’t tolerate that type of player and values physicality over technical prowess. Our identity was essentially SAF, and now that he’s been gone, we’re lost.

Again this is not a main factor, but I do think it contributes to our erratic manager sequence, and to our nonsensical transfer policy over the years. We don’t know what we are and we want, and we’re going about finding out through a very expensive process of trial and error.
 
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It all come sback to glazers.

They stripped the business of money that could have been used to push us beyond the reach of even city, no matter how much they cheated.

They also hired people like woodward and left them to it. Not only were they incompetent buffoons where football desicions are made, but having these bags of shite at the top of the club has lost the identity that ran through the club.

Under woodward and under the monaco manc, does anyone really beleive that Manchester United is a family, a club run with old fashioned values at its heart? Of couse it isn't, and losing that identity is part of the problems we have with building a squad that will really fight when the chips are down.
 
MrMarcello said:
The spiral was born when the Glazers first took control, fortunately Ferguson and Gill were the adults in the room guiding the ship. Once Ferguson and Gill stepped down and the Glazers assumed full control, and gave Woodward full power, the rot began spreading. The rot has grown multiple roots and branches as of today.
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Yep. Sums it up.
 
It's the TRANSFERS!

We have spent enough money to be a top four side and we are not because our transfers have been terrible for years. Below are the substantial money transfers the last 8 years.

Just look at all the wasted money. IMO the only good transfers that have been worth the cost have been Lindelof, Dalot, Amad, Martinez (barely), Bruno, and Maguire. Yoro, Ugarte, Maz and Dorgu are still possibly good (Yoro is a definite, the others ???)

24/25
Yoro 62m
Ugarte 50m
de Ligt 45m
Zirkzee 42m
Dorgu 30m
Maz 15m

23/24
Hojlund 77m
Mount 64m
Onana 50m

22/23
Antony 95m
Casemiro 70m
Martinez 57m

21/22
Sancho 80m
Varane 40m
Ronaldo 17m

20/21
Van de Beck 39m
Amad 21m
Telles 15m

19/20
Maguire 87m
Bruno 65m
Wan Bissaka 55m
James

18/19
Fred 59m
Dalot 22m

17/18
Lukaku 84m
Matic 44m
Lindelof 35m
Sanchez 34m
 
Paul778 said:
Paul Pogba and his brand of disrespecting the club. As the highest paid highest profile individual in the team he was advertising to the rest of the team that standards dont matter. Still trying even now to shake that toxicity, with the baton being passed down through the club.

If there were more leaders in the club, outbursts like the one from Garnacho yesterday would have been self policed by the players. I know what Keane would have said to him.
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Feels weird to blame one of our best players post Fergie who single handedly won us trophies in that period. I get not everyone likes his character, but Christ at least he could be a joy to watch. I have a much bigger issue with players that don’t even have the talent to play for the club in the first place. A team full of players with Pogbas talent would be a very strong side.
 
Paul778 said:
Paul Pogba and his brand of disrespecting the club. As the highest paid highest profile individual in the team he was advertising to the rest of the team that standards dont matter. Still trying even now to shake that toxicity, with the baton being passed down through the club.

If there were more leaders in the club, outbursts like the one from Garnacho yesterday would have been self policed by the players. I know what Keane would have said to him.
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Is this a serious comment or is this a Souness skit? Because blaming Pogba for the fact that we finished 17th this season is absolute insanity, things were so much better back when we had his so called toxicity. We actually won the europa league and finished 2nd/3rd a few times
 
Paul778 said:
Paul Pogba and his brand of disrespecting the club. As the highest paid highest profile individual in the team he was advertising to the rest of the team that standards dont matter. Still trying even now to shake that toxicity, with the baton being passed down through the club.

If there were more leaders in the club, outbursts like the one from Garnacho yesterday would have been self policed by the players. I know what Keane would have said to him.
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This is hilarious
 
Paul778 said:
Paul Pogba and his brand of disrespecting the club. As the highest paid highest profile individual in the team he was advertising to the rest of the team that standards dont matter. Still trying even now to shake that toxicity, with the baton being passed down through the club.

If there were more leaders in the club, outbursts like the one from Garnacho yesterday would have been self policed by the players. I know what Keane would have said to him.
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Look at the level of analysis from this fanbase. fecking hell
 
Anyways, to answer OP:

It’s pretty simply recruitment. People can blame managers, Glazers, attitude, “bad vibes/toxicity”, etc. but the bottom line is our recruitment has steadily gone downhill and culminated in spending 200m on Onana, Hojlund, and Mount, who essentially culminating in being a huge net negative on the pitch as well as being a catastrophic opportunity cost for a wasted transfer window at a critical time in the club.
 
The club has been declining for well over a decade. It just can’t paper over the cracks anymore.

You’d have to go all the way back to 2009 for when we were easily one of the most feared teams in Europe. After that year the level dropped a fair bit but we still won league titles and we were competitive in Europe (even reached another final in ‘11 despite not being a vintage United side). Then Moyes came in and ended an era.

After that we became a top 4 contender that never once challenged for a single league title. Some of those top 4 finishes were unconvincing as well. And now in the last two seasons we’re in a mess that feels almost beyond belief.

This has been some Roman Empire level of decay. Ownership has been the biggest factor but I’d say every manager has had his own issues here.
 
gerdm07 said:
It's the TRANSFERS!

We have spent enough money to be a top four side and we are not because our transfers have been terrible for years. Below are the substantial money transfers the last 8 years.

Just look at all the wasted money. IMO the only good transfers that have been worth the cost have been Lindelof, Dalot, Amad, Martinez (barely), Bruno, and Maguire. Yoro, Ugarte, Maz and Dorgu are still possibly good (Yoro is a definite, the others ???)

24/25
Yoro 62m
Ugarte 50m
de Ligt 45m
Zirkzee 42m
Dorgu 30m
Maz 15m

23/24
Hojlund 77m
Mount 64m
Onana 50m

22/23
Antony 95m
Casemiro 70m
Martinez 57m

21/22
Sancho 80m
Varane 40m
Ronaldo 17m

20/21
Van de Beck 39m
Amad 21m
Telles 15m

19/20
Maguire 87m
Bruno 65m
Wan Bissaka 55m
James

18/19
Fred 59m
Dalot 22m

17/18
Lukaku 84m
Matic 44m
Lindelof 35m
Sanchez 34m
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Is it though? For sure there's a lot of flops on that list and certainly we've massively overpaid, but just because we paid £80m for a £40m player doesn't make them play like a £5m player. There are good players on that list, and certainly a lot of players that were well thought of before they came to us. Ignoring how they've performaned for us, consider:
  • Onana - 3 time Eredivise winner, CL and UL runner up
  • Maguire - England regular during a period of great success for the national team
  • de Ligt - won Eredivise, Serie A and Bundesliga
  • Zirkzee - Serie A young player of the year and team of the year in 2024
  • Mazraoui - 3 time Eredivise winner
  • Mount - CL winner
  • Sancho - widely regarded as a wonder kid and possibly the best player from England's "new golden generation"
  • Lukaku - whilst having his limitations he was a regular and proven goalscorer in the PL
Its hard to argue before we signed them that they were all bad players (even if the prices were too high and at times it wasn't obvious where they would play). For sure there are some on the list above that looked wrong at the outset but there's also a lot that didn't. Add in those that have worked out OK (Amad, Bruno, Varane, Martinez, Ronaldo, Yoro, Matic) along with players that were already at the club or came through the academy (De Gea, Rashford, Mainoo, Shaw) I cannot accept that the failures have been down purely to transfers. Its an easy cop out and there's no way in hell that is a group of players that should finish 17th. Its frankly madness to suggest this is a set of relegation threatened players.

We seem to be so inept off the field that it almost doesn't matter who we sign, we turn everyone to shit.
 
Poor business strategies in player recruitment.

The transfer fees and the wages have completely destroyed us and left us incapable of selling assets whilst stuck in a cycle of overpaying at every opportunity to rectify past mistakes. This is absolutely killed us in the PSR Era and left us unable to compete unless we tank for 2 or 3 seasons like an NBA team ditch fecking everyone on 150k+ deals and hope we dont get relegated then rebuild with a wage structure and proper data driven recruitment.

We all laughed at chelsea spunking over a billion in a couple of windows on players who werent ready but the context looking back is really really important. They spent over a billion, amortised, on assets not players, which has meant they have the tools in play to work within the PSR climate. We on the other hand have the revenue and the name but no cash and no ability to play the market to impove relative to the rest of the league.
 
Paul778 said:
Paul Pogba and his brand of disrespecting the club. As the highest paid highest profile individual in the team he was advertising to the rest of the team that standards dont matter. Still trying even now to shake that toxicity, with the baton being passed down through the club.

If there were more leaders in the club, outbursts like the one from Garnacho yesterday would have been self policed by the players. I know what Keane would have said to him.
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I did not see that coming.
 
The fecking Glazer filth. Those thundercunts are worse owners than Owen and Karl Oyston. They should be locked up in prison for criminal negligence and embezzlement.
 
VivaRonaldo85 said:
So what is the fundamental reason for this stark drop?
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Joel, Avram, Bryan, Darcie, Edward and Kevin, then the gross little leprechaun who spawned them. Then their appointments like Ed and Richard Arnold.
Remove them owners, then find someone willing to invest in the club.
 
We’ve been a mess for more then seven years when it comes to financial decisions. We’ve had SAF and Gill carrying us for many years. So like many others is also say the Glazers are to blame and now with the Ineos they’ve unsettled the boat even more. We are a total mess. We need Glazers out and the Qatari takeover….!
 
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