I was watching the game and was just in disbelief at some of the decisions. Really felt for them.
VAR and Refs | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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So they will always be given then.
If you want to know why VAR has failed, Gallagher is an insight into level of person making the decisions so it was bound to go wrong
He said he reckoned it was a penalty in real time and the VAR was correct. I'm not sure what you're looking for here. The commentator pushed him to say Martial initiated contact and he refused to.
That's not what he was saying I don't think. My interpretation of that when he said it was that he felt it would be an unusual situation for the ref to have got it that wrong: to have thought Martial dived, and booked him for it, when in fact the foul by the defender had been so deliberate/severe to have warranted a yellow card.
The first pen was insane as well. I was convinced it would get pulled back but nothing. Never in a million years a pen, really feel for Wolves this season.
I thought I was missing something when I watched it. He immediately and repeatedly said it was foul. He wasn’t reluctant at all. The decision rightfully went your way and was confirmed as correct by a former referee on national television. If there’s an anti-United conspiracy at play here… it’s a pretty poor one.
Don't know what you mean by "blatant" - these kind of collisions have been happening for years in the box, and hardly ever - ever - lead to a penalty. It's the first time it made such waves, I think they gave a pen the following week for good measure, and now it's reverted to the mean. Goalkeepers hailed as the best in the league (Alisson and Ederson to name a couple) have been particularly "guilty" of these kind of interventions, and it's never been an issue up until the Wolves game.
I thought VAR was to be used for only clear and obvious errors.
This has become so far from what is actually happening its making a mockery out of VAR.
Seems like the guy on VAR is trying to referee the game himself when that is not his job.
Howard Webb can come out with his well trained PR skills and talk a load of rubbish for 20 minutes and not really get anywhere or he can do his job and stop VAR interfering with games way more than what it was brought in for.
When you have unskilled people trying to do a perfect job then it will always lead to mayhem.
This has become so far from what is actually happening its making a mockery out of VAR.
Seems like the guy on VAR is trying to referee the game himself when that is not his job.
Howard Webb can come out with his well trained PR skills and talk a load of rubbish for 20 minutes and not really get anywhere or he can do his job and stop VAR interfering with games way more than what it was brought in for.
When you have unskilled people trying to do a perfect job then it will always lead to mayhem.
This in a nutshell. It's re-reffing every marginal call and like others have said it's ruining celebrating legit goals because there's always now a nagging feeling it could get chalked off for no good reason. The early goal against Fulham I didn't celebrate as there seemed a chance it could be offside as it was from a free-kick. I then proceeded to brief a sigh of relief that there was no offside on seeing the replays. Went to make a cuppa then came back in 3 minutes later and the fecking assistant VAR had piped up to show how fecking diligent they are to point out that someone who didn't even touch the ball or actually impede anyone was somehow active. Feck off. Nearly turned the TV off at that point.
The freeze frame and slow-mo usage for red cards is beyond stupid because it will always look worse than it was. These are the only things where arguably a ref should be called to a monitor, but just show them the tackle in real time ffs.
Even the offside calls are stupid because it's based on a humans perception of which body part to draw the line from using a camera angle which generally isn't inline with the players. Just get rid of the lines, get a load of non refs with 20:20 vision to do a brief check of whether it's clearly offside or not and be done with it in less than 30 seconds rather than 5 minutes.
Whilst I completely agree, the problem is that the term "clear and obvious" is entirely subjective. For instance, was the Martial penalty incident a clear and obvious enough error to warrant the intervention of VAR? I'd guarantee if that very question were put to the vote on this site, you'd get a substantial number of people on either side of the fence. This additional layer of subjectivity is the biggest downfall of the whole system.
The Martial one is not a great example in this context because the on-field call was dive and yellow for Martial, which there was clear evidence of being a wrong decision. Especially if the ref tells the VAR he’s seen no contact between the players.
Your point would be better though if the ref has said it wasn’t enough to award a penalty (but didn’t book Martial for diving), because then you’d be in the muddy waters of clear and obvious, discussing how much contact is required for it to be a clear and obvious when the ref’s seen contact but deemed it to be insufficient.
Yes, your second paragraph gets to the issue I was referring to regarding subjectivity. In fact, I think it's guesswork on your part to suggest that the VAR operative only got involved in the decision because of the perceived unfair yellow card. He may well have considered the non-award of a penalty kick his primary concern. Whilst I don't consider myself an expert on the rules pertaining to VAR, I've seen more than enough instances of highly dubious yellow cards be ignored by VAR to make the assumption that they are not generally corrected.
Wolves must be the only team more unlucky than us regarding VAR
We all complain about VAR.
But Wolves have been on the wrong end of bad VAR calls too many times this season.
But surely if a foul is committed then it’s more of an error (ie a more clear and obvious error, or easier to satisfy the clear and obvious bar for intervention) if the ref gives a foul to the other team for a dive than just not giving a foul.
If a player makes a dangerous studs-up challenge that the VAR feels is a red card, surely you can agree that it’s easier to say that the on-field call is a clear and obvious error if the ref hasn’t given a free kick at all as opposed to the referee giving a yellow card?
It is important that we don't get stuck in discussion if it was penalty or not. It is. We can't have any decisions going our way to be discussed so there is some doubt which can influence future situations. What should be questions is why they didn't get red card in this situation, having already one yellow.
I can't understand how Wolves don't go out with some official statement and demand something. If I was their manager, I would pull out players from the pitch next time there is ridiculous decisions against them.
This is exactly same thing what is happening to us although we have been lucky to have better quality and win more games despite having all those decisions going against us. We should not forget how we lost games against Arsenal, ManCity, Tottenham and Crystal Palace where VAR and refs decisions had big impact on those games.
There are no questions to be asked, there's an explanation of the rules for this type of instance earlier in this thread about why correctly a yellow wasn't issued
I’ve always been against it. No secret. It doesn’t help anything considering problems it gives. It is still humans who decide. Goal line technology was enough and people should just let football be football.Not the world’s greatest post.
I think you have VAR-rage
Amount of decisions going against us have been to many.
I'd one further, and say the Martial one was VAR working perfectly. We know what the referee thought he saw (no contact, dive), and we know from video that was wrong. The fix I want from VAR (non-offside part) is to always easyhear what the on-field referee thought he saw as the starting point, and go from there. "Got the ball first" or "no contact, dive" are objective and verifiable. VAR can fix those easily. "Just a coming together" or "not enough contact to go down" are judgement calls, and should require a much higher burden of proof to overturn. Referees already wear microphone for communication. Referees already make signals (wave of the arms to say no foul, shake of the head, point to say got the ball in a close tackle). It can't be that difficult for the referee to tell VAR what he thinks he saw, and then "clear and obvious" becomes much more easy to apply, and much more transparent for the fans.
Contact is isn’t needed for a foul to have been committed. So your idea doesn’t work. It’s also another example of why VAT is such a load of bollox. Because it’s impossible to make the nuanced interpretation needed to apply the laws of the game fit with the protocol driven approach that a system like VAR needs to work. The best example of all is, of course, the utter bastardisation of the hand ball offence since the advent of VAR.
When VAR was first introduced I made a joke that they were implementing it poorly so fans wouldn't want it anymore.
While I don't think this is happening the main point is coaches, players, and fans are the ones who wanted VAR. I'm sure refs would be happy if their decisions weren't second-guessed. You can't get rid of VAR, it would be senseless. The FA just needs to a better job of making consistent decisions. That's the issue. No VAR would just make everyone even more upset.
While I don't think this is happening the main point is coaches, players, and fans are the ones who wanted VAR. I'm sure refs would be happy if their decisions weren't second-guessed. You can't get rid of VAR, it would be senseless. The FA just needs to a better job of making consistent decisions. That's the issue. No VAR would just make everyone even more upset.
That is how the protocol works. Ref tells VAR what he thinks he’s seen and then the VAR should recommend a review if the footage doesn’t match what the ref’s seen.
You missed the point. I agree contact isn't needed for a foul. But if the referee says no foul because no contact, and the video proves there was, that's the definition of clear and obvious error. VAR and clear and obvious can only work if we know what the on field referee was thinking in the first place.
But we don't hear it. And so the only thing that brings Arsenal, United, and Liverpool fans together is the belief that referees are out to get us. Rugby can make this work. How about PMGOL talk to rugby officials rather than air traffic control?
Thing is, even when it’s absolutely correct, thousands will rail against it - objectivity out of the window due to either habit (like to ‘tell it how it is’), ignorance (vague or outdated understanding of the rules), or inconvenience (too long to make a decision)
It’s got that bad now every chimp is convinced every decision is wrong.
Wonder if they’re experimenting with AI to speed up the process - seems like a good candidate?
Euro VAR doing its job perfectly there, no messing about just saw Anthony Gordon got the ball and gave the decision quickly which is what we want to see.
Reckon at least one of them penalties gets given against us, in Europe at least. Ref is doing well to not get intimidated by the crowd.
Edit: The PSG game
Edit: The PSG game
That's not a penalty to PSG, it comes off his chest on to his arm
Same as martinez last season in CL. Mustn't be a thing in Europe
Turned the game off after that VAR call. I hate Newcastle, but probably VAR even more.
There’s a shit call for every second game you watch and it adds time and takes away emotions. Is this really better than before?
There’s a shit call for every second game you watch and it adds time and takes away emotions. Is this really better than before?
Hit at some pace too. The threshold for penalties for handballs in Europe is ridiculous.
Sometimes i see nonsense like ‘football is scripted’. Then you see that VAR decision and you actually wonder….
That's a really terrible decision. Newcastle played so so well, hopefully they are massively deflated now going into the weekend ....
My first thought was the Martinez one.
What is the actual rule now with it coming off another body part first?
How is this clown considered world's best referee? Maybe for Qatar interests
Also him stopping the game to hear the VAR, adding extra pressure to the VAR room
Also him stopping the game to hear the VAR, adding extra pressure to the VAR room
It’s much much worse. But I still enjoy seeing teams I despise being ridden by it. Not gonna lie.
VAR is a farce because of the referees. It's astounding how they fail to acknowledge how incompetent they have been.
I'm Europe, I believe it's irrelevant whether the ball deflects off another part of your body