Varchester City 18/19 discussion

[Gentleman Jim]

Wenger is sitting there smug tonight, can't see Liverpool going all season unbeaten, the fact remains that City are a very good side, but don't have the tactical nous to change things when their star players aren't performing.
That comes from the manager and the players they have brought.
Usually a bit of magic from an individual is enough to win a game when they are playing poor, but if that doesn't happen then they only have like for like changes, no plan b.

Oh my. That's City knackered, isn't it?
City's star players who are most capable of changing the game were not even in the squad.

 

[Champ]

Oh my. That's City knackered, isn't it?
City's star players who are most capable of changing the game were not even in the squad.

City will win the league at a canter, but not unbeaten, which will haunt Pep and the hierarchy at City,
So if their star players weren't in the squad, what does that say for the rest of the very expensive players who turned up?

 

[Casanova85]

Feels so good watching them lose.

Now, if only Chelsea were the leaders...

 

[Trizy]

City will win the league at a canter, but not unbeaten, which will haunt Pep and the hierarchy at City,
So if their star players weren't in the squad, what does that say for the rest of the very expensive players who turned up?

I don't get it. Any time City lose its because X player is missing. Every team misses players throughout their season. For example Pogba has missed 3 of the last 4 ties vs them.

 

[Klopper76]

Wenger is sitting there smug tonight, can't see Liverpool going all season unbeaten, the fact remains that City are a very good side, but don't have the tactical nous to change things when their star players aren't performing.
That comes from the manager and the players they have brought.
Usually a bit of magic from an individual is enough to win a game when they are playing poor, but if that doesn't happen then they only have like for like changes, no plan b.

Arsenal drew 12 games in their ‘unbeaten’ season. It’s an overrated accomplishment imo. United’s treble win and City’s 100 points last year were both superior achievements.

City won 32 league games last season, Arsenal won 26 in 03/04.

 

[antihenry]

Unless a major injury crisis happens, they are still my bet to win the league. Liverpool are very strong and determined this season, but they've been overachieving a bit and riding their luck on several occasions. City are still a better side, there's no doubt about it. I don't see Klopp's side go unbeaten, there's still a long way to go, Guardiola has experience and once they get KDB and Aguero back, there'll be no stopping them.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

City will win the league at a canter, but not unbeaten, which will haunt Pep and the hierarchy at City,
So if their star players weren't in the squad, what does that say for the rest of the very expensive players who turned up?

It’s virtually impossible to go through a League sesason unbeaten if you play each game to win (as opposed to playing not to lose).
Pep said only this week that he has no interest in unbeaten seasons when a journo raised that issue.
What it says about the players is that they lost a game. They’ll lose others before the end of the season too.

 

[Denis_unwise]

Arsenal drew 12 games in their ‘unbeaten’ season. It’s an overrated accomplishment imo. United’s treble win and City’s 100 points last year were both superior achievements.

I don't think the fact that the Invincibles drew 12 games diminishes the achievement. All that most remember is that nobody could beat them in the league that season. They have the specially commissioned gold trophy too. The League was harder at this point too with not as much cannon fodder as what we have now. It in no way stacks up to our treble, it's better than the City 100 pts in my opinion though.

 

[padr81]

We were poor yesterday, second half was the first time we've been completely outplayed in awhile. Still it's not the end of the world, losing away at Chelsea is hardly unheard of.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

City will win the league at a canter, but not unbeaten, which will haunt Pep and the hierarchy at City,
So if their star players weren't in the squad, what does that say for the rest of the very expensive players who turned up?

Yeah I'm sure not winning the league unbeaten (which happens like never) will be haunting everybody at City as they rack up the trophies.

 

[Wumminator]

The worry is that City are going to dominate for the next decade with this team and it obviously still could happen. But I think yesterday shows that they rely (obviously) on Aguero and Silva still. They’re both in the twilight of their careers hopefully so I hope they struggle to replace them.

Stones is excellent.

 

[andyox]

Yeah I'm sure not winning the league unbeaten (which happens like never) will be haunting everybody at City as they rack up the trophies.

Agreed, no-one at City has ever said this so can't see that anyone is going to be too haunted by it. Guardiola was asked about going unbeaten earlier in the week, and was asked about it plenty of times last season too. He's consistently said it'll never happen and he's not interested in it either. What's important to him is City playing the type of football he wants and winning enough points over the season to win the title. Anything else is peripheral.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Agreed, no-one at City has ever said this so can't see that anyone is going to be too haunted by it. Guardiola was asked about going unbeaten earlier in the week, and was asked about it plenty of times last season too. He's consistently said it'll never happen and he's not interested in it either. What's important to him is City playing the type of football he wants and winning enough points over the season to win the title. Anything else is peripheral.

It's nothing more than a novelty and a cool thing for the fans to boast about. Sure, I'm certain it's in the players minds if say they're unbeaten with a few games to go, but nobody is starting off with it as an objective. Like others have said, Arsenal's invincibles got less points than City last season, so they were the inferior league side .. it's that simple. The point is to get as many points as possible.

 

[NoLogo]

We were poor yesterday, second half was the first time we've been completely outplayed in awhile. Still it's not the end of the world, losing away at Chelsea is hardly unheard of.

I think you already experienced that against Lyon. Not even in the game you lost but in the 2-2 draw it felt like Lyon was way more dangerous with their attacks and if not for that wasteful finishing they could have scored 4 or 5 goals that evening, which admittedly is something I have never seen another team do to your current side apart from maybe Liverpool last year in the 4-3.

As crazy as it sounds after all the money you spent on FBs in the last couple of years I feel this is one area that could still do with improvements. Namely, FBs like Kimmich and Alaba who I think are much more suited to playing the role that Guardiola wants his FBs to play, which is to act basically as two DMs distributing the balls when your team is in attack. That being said I realize that both of these players are almost impossible to get unless their contract is running out.

 

[padr81]

I think you already experienced that against Lyon. Not even in the game you lost but in the 2-2 draw it felt like Lyon was way more dangerous with their attacks and if not for that wasteful finishing they could have scored 4 or 5 goals that evening, which admittedly is something I have never seen another team do to your current side apart from maybe Liverpool last year in the 4-3.

As crazy as it sounds after all the money you spent on FBs in the last couple of years I feel this is one area that could still do with improvements. Namely, FBs like Kimmich and Alaba who I think are much more suited to playing the role that Guardiola wants his FBs to play, which is to act basically as two DMs distributing the balls when your team is in attack. That being said I realize that both of these players are almost impossible to get unless their contract is running out.

I thought the Lyon game was pretty even, they created chances on the break but we created a shitload of chances too, yesterday we had lots of the ball but in the second half created nothing really, completely kept out by David Luiz of all people. Lyon showed we could be got defensively with pace (ala Liverpool last season) but Chelsea showed we can be got at and we can be nullified up top. Of course not every team has Hazard to lead their counters but still.

That said we've not been at our best in the last while, we coughed up a fair few chances to West Ham but we were clinical in front of goal which made the game look more one sided than it was. We were decent without being great vs B'Mouth and for 80 minutes vs Watford. We've dropped a tad in the last month or so.

Walker is fine I think, he plays very different at City to Spurs but he's doing well. He's prone to drop a brain fart every 3 games though, I think his concentration goes in games where we are dominating the ball or something. Danilo seems decent but I haven't seen enough of him to know if he's good or not, seems decent but not top end CL level. I think Walker is better when we play Mahrez because it suits him to stay wide and overlap with Mahrez cutting inside, but with Sterling in the team he has to play in midfield and he's no Kimmich.

LB for me is still an issue, Mendy I'm not sold on, has great physical attributes, great energy and a great delivery but seems to always be out of position and mess up some easy defensive situations. His first touch can be awkward at times too. He absolutely cannot tuck into midfield and play like Alaba so when he plays Sane has to sit out or we seem off for lack of a better word. Delph is decent but does a solid job (but gets exposed against the better teams) and Zinchenko is a midfielder we tried to sell to Wolves. Weirdly I'd say Delph is best suited to dropping into midfield and playing with Sane, while Mendy needs Sterling on the left to get the best from his game. I'd say LB is easily our weakest position.

Atm for me the biggest issue is getting Kun back asap, hope hes back at the weekend. If David Silva and Aguero are out along with KDB, we can become a little LVG like in possession.

 

[padr81]

It's nothing more than a novelty and a cool thing for the fans to boast about. Sure, I'm certain it's in the players minds if say they're unbeaten with a few games to go, but nobody is starting off with it as an objective. Like others have said, Arsenal's invincibles got less points than City last season, so they were the inferior league side .. it's that simple. The point is to get as many points as possible.

Records are nice and all but imho, we would have preferred winning the league with 85 points and a CL (at least I would) and I'm sure Arsene's invincibles would have taken a defeat or two for one as well. I don't know how I stand on the 100 points vs Invincibles, but I'd probably side with you if pushed to choose. Both are complete 1 off achievements in English football.

 

[padr81]

The worry is that City are going to dominate for the next decade with this team and it obviously still could happen. But I think yesterday shows that they rely (obviously) on Aguero and Silva still. They’re both in the twilight of their careers hopefully so I hope they struggle to replace them.

Stones is excellent.

I think when our 2 best players are Mancini signings (maybe KDB too) I don't think we'll dominate for 10 years, or even 5. The others are catching up and eventually you guys will get your mojo back to. I think the days of anyone doing 3 in a row are well and truly gone, its been almost 10 years since anyone last done a 2 in a row.

 

[Don Alfredo]

I think when our 2 best players are Mancini signings (maybe KDB too) I don't think we'll dominate for 10 years, or even 5. The others are catching up and eventually you guys will get your mojo back to. I think the days of anyone doing 3 in a row are well and truly gone, its been almost 10 years since anyone last done a 2 in a row.

5 years of dominance is not unthinkable for you. Keep in mind that Pep won 3 in a row for Barca and Bayern and he is halfway there doing it for you lot as well, with a depleted squad this season. If Pep stays longer, I can easily see you winning something like 4 titles in 5 years(2018-2022). One of Klopp/Sarri/Poch may pull an upset for once, but they are not used to winning many titles and they have fewer ressources to play with. Utd is the club with the second most resources, but they won‘t do anything in that 5 years period because they lack everything (manager, players, structure, recruitment, fitness, scouting).

 

[VJ1762]

Utd is the club with the second most resources, but they won‘t do anything in that 5 years period because they lack everything (manager, players, structure, recruitment, fitness, scouting).

This sentence hurts me man. Yes, my club is looking like a lost cause right now, but you never know, we might turn it around before 5 years. At least, I hope we do.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Liverpool will win it this year then City will win it next year then normal service will resume and United will win it 8 of the following 10 years (with Spurs and Chelsea picking up the 2 spares).

 

[winteriscoming]

Wait a minute, are you justifying your wrongdoing?
I expect at the very least a one season ban from europe and even domestically as punishment.

No, not justifying the wrong doing. Stating that we were found guilty, regardless of the figures, and were served a punishment which we took. Everyone was okay with that, until Pep Guardiola turned up and started playing from the back, which was great for the first year, but since then,,,,,!

 

[winteriscoming]

I don't disagree with you. The main purpose of FFP was to stop state funded clubs running amok. It had to be brought in in a backdoor way as many clubs would have complained that they were being denied a chance to get there own sugar daddies. It shouldn't be confused as big clubs trying to stop any competition though. There was nothing to stop rich investors putting money into clubs over a gradual period & building themselves up. They could even make losses up to a certain point.
​

Mansour's wealth is due to being part of the Royal Family. He is using wealth accumulated from his position in the state to fund City. You are state funded which in effect makes you state owned. City & PSG's owners are not in the game to make money. In City's case you are looking at over £2 Bill investment over a decade & yet to make a profit. No business mogul in his right mind is going to want to eat those kind of losses.

The recent leaks indicate you mislead the authorities regarding the level of your losses & declared sponsorship income. A criminal can go to court & be charged with burglary. He is then sent to prison. If while he is in prison it's found he committed 3 other burglary's he will be charged with them also. He doesn't get a free pass due to already being charged for the first offence. City's offences are more serious than previously thought. It is only right that your punishment should be adjusted to be in line with the offence.

I think your analogy regarding the burglar a little skew whiff.

So the burglar breaks into a house, and clears out all of the contents. He gets questioned and owns up. He gets penalised and accepts the punishment. Houseowner is delighted, great work by the Police.

Then about 4 years later, the houseowner says to the police, 'Oy, copper, I've been sent an old note that makes me think that that burglar may also have stolen my Xbox, that night.

Forget a trial, and it doesn't matter where I found the note, just extend his sentence for another 10 years and give him another big fine, then I'll be happy. Cheers

 

[winteriscoming]

You seriously believe City's owners are doing this to make money? Really? What they make from City is a pittance to them in the grand scheme of things. Your club is being used for advertising and PR.

It's only another of many businesses to them. They have invested circa £1.5bn into a business that is now estimated to be worth £2.5bn. It is only about the money. Same with every owner in the Premier League to a man.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

It's only another of many businesses to them. They have invested circa £1.5bn into a business that is now estimated to be worth £2.5bn. It is only about the money. Same with every owner in the Premier League to a man.

How much did they buy City for? How much profit per annum do City make? How did they manage to to sponsor both their stadium and their shirt with the biggest UAE airways, alarm bells with that one. It’s simply for self promotion and a PR exercise for them in the West, how the FA found them fit to be owners is absolute BS.

 

[Vadim]

The worry is that City are going to dominate for the next decade with this team and it obviously still could happen. But I think yesterday shows that they rely (obviously) on Aguero and Silva still. They’re both in the twilight of their careers hopefully so I hope they struggle to replace them.

Stones is excellent.

No team is going to dominate the Premier League, it’s why I still think our league is the best.

Some people were comparing the PL to Ligue 1 last week just because City beat Watford 2-1 (Lol).

There are some damn good teams and managers in this league now. Liverpool and Klopp, Spurs and Poch, obviously City and Pep, Chelsea and Sarri, Arsenal and Emery. City fans will be kicking themselves that the time they actually look like dominating United-style, all of their rivals (apart from Utd) get their shit together!

You can have all the money in the world. It’s still damn hard winning this league.

 

[andyox]

How much did they buy City for? How much profit per annum do City make? How did they manage to to sponsor both their stadium and their shirt with the biggest UAE airways, alarm bells with that one. It’s simply for self promotion and a PR exercise for them in the West, how the FA found them fit to be owners is absolute BS.

The reference to the £1.5bn relates to how much ADUG paid for City in 2008, which was initially £210m for 90% (the remaining 10% followed later) plus the investment all listed in the accounts as equity injections that funded transfers and losses in the initial years.

"How much profit per annum do City make" is more or less irrelevant to the success or otherwise of the investment. The success of the investment is made on City's market value/sale price when ADUG decide to cash in. In terms of how much City are worth to a potential future investor, ADUG sold 13% of City's shares to Chinese investors in 2015 for £265m, which effectively valued City at £2bn. You'd assume City's value has grown since then given the title last year and the growth in the TV deals. So if ADUG have invested £1.5bn and manage to sell City for £2-2.5bn then that would be an ROI of over 25%. That's a great investment in anyone's book.

(But yes, agreed that there is more to ADUG's investment in City than just the returns...)

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

No team is going to dominate the Premier League, it’s why I still think our league is the best.

Some people were comparing the PL to Ligue 1 last week just because City beat Watford 2-1 (Lol).

There are some damn good teams and managers in this league now. Liverpool and Klopp, Spurs and Poch, obviously City and Pep, Chelsea and Sarri, Arsenal and Emery. City fans will be kicking themselves that the time they actually look like dominating United-style, all of their rivals (apart from Utd) get their shit together!

You can have all the money in the world. It’s still damn hard winning this league.

It was an absolute piece of piss last season. They wrapped it up nice and early with a lovely little bow. Serie A was way more competitive than the Premier League last season, and I'd be surprised if the points gap was much different this season either.

Still early days in this one, but they've only lost one game thus far (away to a top 4 side) but have otherwise cruised through most games, and let's face it are still comfortable favourites to win it back to back.

 

[winteriscoming]

No team is going to dominate the Premier League, it’s why I still think our league is the best.

Some people were comparing the PL to Ligue 1 last week just because City beat Watford 2-1 (Lol).

There are some damn good teams and managers in this league now. Liverpool and Klopp, Spurs and Poch, obviously City and Pep, Chelsea and Sarri, Arsenal and Emery. City fans will be kicking themselves that the time they actually look like dominating United-style, all of their rivals (apart from Utd) get their shit together!

You can have all the money in the world. It’s still damn hard winning this league.

I fully agree with this.

When Abramovic first appeared on the scene and 'spent big' so as to compete with the top 4, (you know who you are), everyone thought they will dominate for years, why are we bothering?

It was actually refreshing for fans like us seeing somebody new, taking on and beating the established clubs who'd profited so well from the influx of the Sky money.

But as we all know, football isn't like that.
A good team gets built, they do great for a season or two, then whatever happens, whether it's players falling out, injuries, loss of 'hunger', or moving on, they fade away, manager sacked and start again with new manager, some of the contracted players, some new players.

So yes, it's cyclic. City were the benchmark last season, but this season you would have to argue it's Liverpool.
They do actually have a great team and manager and will take some stopping.
I actually think a weakness may be that frenzied mob putting too much pressure on them like they did in 2014. We will see.

To United fans, as you know, this squad isn't quite there.
However, it wouldn't take much.
A change of manager to a foot forward attacking sort, a couple of signings the place would be lifted, and it would be 'here we go '.

There is no doubt in my mind that United would be challenging without him.

 

[Judas]

With David Silva out for a few weeks, that's another blow to them, and another boost for Liverpool.

 

[charlie9882]

With David Silva out for a few weeks, that's another blow to them, and another boost for Liverpool.

Silva, Fernandinho, KDB, Aguero, Danilo, Mendy all out. Only 15 senior players fit for tomorrows game. City are currently being hit hard with injuries.

 

[andyox]

Silva, Fernandinho, KDB, Aguero, Danilo, Mendy all out. Only 15 senior players fit for tomorrows game. City are currently being hit hard with injuries.

We've definitely been hit pretty hard by injuries this season, to core players as well. I don't expect too much sympathy given the money we've spent and the depth of the squad though!

Hopefully it means some more game time for Foden (and maybe Diaz).

 

[Bilbo]

City's season won't be defined by whether they go unbeaten in the league. It will be defined by whether or not they get to the final of the CL.

 

[el magico]

City's season won't be defined by whether they go unbeaten in the league. It will be defined by whether or not they get to the final of the CL.

Not for me. Apart from the bleedin' obvious that they have already been beaten in the league, getting to the final of the CL is almost pot-luck. To say it will define the season is a complete nonsense. Win the league and get knocked out in the quarter-finals or not win the league and lose the final. Difficult choice.

 

[andyox]

Not for me. Apart from the bleedin' obvious that they have already been beaten in the league, getting to the final of the CL is almost pot-luck. To say it will define the season is a complete nonsense. Win the league and get knocked out in the quarter-finals or not win the league and lose the final. Difficult choice.

Always makes me laugh that opposition fans seem a lot more invested in City's progression in the CL than City fans.

 

[el magico]

Always makes me laugh that opposition fans seem a lot more invested in City's progression in the CL than City fans.

I truly don't understand how progression in the CL can be the ultimate arbiter of a team's performance. Surely, people aren't gambling on City not winning the CL as being proof positive of some random stat that this City team is not as good as....

Retaining the title works for me.

 

[padr81]

I truly don't understand how progression in the CL can be the ultimate arbiter of a team's performance. Surely, people aren't gambling on City not winning the CL as being proof positive of some random stat that this City team is not as good as....

Retaining the title works for me.

Me too, winning the league should be priority number 1, every season. While the CL is the bigger trophy and would be amazing, winning the CL without winning the league is weird. Being the best team in Europe but not the best team in England. I'd rather win the Prem and lose the CL final, then win the CL and come 2nd-20th in the league.

 

[Prometheus]

I'd rather win the Prem and lose the CL final, then when the CL and come 2nd-20th in the league.

Now that I never understood.

 

[padr81]

Now that I never understood.

I feel the CL is decided on many things, a decision here a decision there. One individual mistake here or there, a group of people attacking a bus before the game (I joke on this one, kinda..) Don't get me wrong, more often then not the cream will rise to the top but sometimes it doesn't. Over a 38 games season, luck is a tiny, tiny factor, ref decisions will generally balance out and while one team will be slightly unluckier with decisions everyone ends up where they should be. In the CL one offside goal can end a campaign for someone, one missed peno etc..

I mean if Liverpool beat us to the premier league this year by 2 points or a point, we can look back at the Mahrez peno as "maybe things would have been different", I know this is hypothetical but if Mahrez misses that same peno in the 90th minute of the CL, that one moment decides who goes out and who goes through.

Also just noticed how I spelled "win" in the 2nd half of that sentence...

 

[el magico]

Now that I never understood.

Are you English?

 

[andyox]

I feel the CL is decided on many things, a decision here a decision there. One individual mistake here or there, a group of people attacking a bus before the game (I joke on this one, kinda..) Don't get me wrong, more often then not the cream will rise to the top but sometimes it doesn't. Over a 38 games season, luck is a tiny, tiny factor, ref decisions will generally balance out and while one team will be slightly unluckier with decisions everyone ends up where they should be. In the CL one offside goal can end a campaign for someone, one missed peno etc..

I mean if Liverpool beat us to the premier league this year by 2 points or a point, we can look back at the Mahrez peno as "maybe things would have been different", I know this is hypothetical but if Mahrez misses that same peno in the 90th minute of the CL, that one moment decides who goes out and who goes through.

Also just noticed how I spelled "win" in the 2nd half of that sentence...

I've genuinely never had any interest in the Champions League. I could count on one hand the number of CL games I watched before City first qualified for the competition. It was totally irrelevant to me as a City fan (first game in 1990) because we never had a hope of qualifying and because of the way it was skewing the league (when CL TV money was more important than it is now in the era of huge PL TV deals) -- the biggest teams qualified for the CL, earnt extra TV money, used the TV money to get stronger, qualified again, earnt extra TV money and round and round.

Now that City have been in it for a few years my position is still the same, and of course we've had our well-publicised issues with UEFA since then as well. I'll watch the games but I'm disconnected. I always want City to win, but a poor CL result is forgotten immediately while a poor PL result ruins my week. The CL semi-final loss was forgotten that night. I still haven't got over the Wigan FA Cup final loss.

The ultimate test to me has always been to be the best team in the country. After that it's the domestic cup competitions. And lastly the CL. Any time I say that to non-City fans they think I'm either mental or must be taking the piss, but it's just how I feel.

I think if the CL was a straight knockout for champions I'd be much more interested. Or even if it was the same groups/knockout structure as now, but totally unseeded and no separating out teams from same country etc in the group stages. That feels to me like a sporting competition. As it is now, it just seems like a structure designed by the elite for the elite to try to guarantee progress and maximise income.