We are not as good as we thought we were...

M4YON

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We should have bought Mane shouldn't we?
Probably but there's a huge list of players over the years we should of bought, just add Mane to that list.

If it makes you feel any better, if Mane continues to play like that he won't stay there he'll move on to a bigger club with a better chance of winning the CL.
 

Lawman

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We have to many average players but Jose is sorting this.

Outs so far:
Memphis
Morgan
Adnan

Out the team and on their way:
Rooney
Darmain
Bastian
Young
Carrick
Fellaini

Possibly in last chance saloon:
Shaw
Rojo
Smalling
Jones
Lingard

That is 14 of the squad he inherited feck me this squad Jose got was average bordering on years of trophy wilderness (League and champions league) not domestic ones granted.

Signings so far:
Zlatan- short term has been an awesome return and exact attitude we were missing.
Pogba- long term is going to be the best in the business.
Bailly- certainly looks the part time will tell.
Mykytarin- fantastic creative spark we needed.

So in my opinion another couple of seasons and Jose will have us top dogs again. Moyes well people have their opinion and he wasn't good but I think some of our players just downed tools and they got off lightly in the criticism. LVG was a disaster of a manager and spent a fortune buying lesser players than he offloaded. In Jose we have got the right man at the helm.
 

CEOZucker

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I think the problem is we have the 6th best manager in the league,
1.Chelsea have Moses and Alonso has wing backs Cahill as a starting CB But Conte made it work
2. Tottenham is much more balanced thanks to Pochettino but bar Kane they don't have a single player on the level of Zlatan, De Gea, Mikhitarian or Pogba somehow they are above us
3. City's midfield is the best in the league but their but the defence and the goalie are absolute jokes.
4. Liverpool is bang average in every sense, only Mane, Lallana and Coutinho I would say are special yet they are can outplay any team.
5. Arsenal again are bang average minus Sanchez still they can get a result.

All these 5 Teams have glaring weaknesses and do not have a world beating XI, and only City have spent more than us, there is no reason we should be 6th with our squad just like there is no reason for Lvg finishing 5th.

What also worries me is the lack of development of Martial and Rashford, they have not improved one bit, they should be leading the line just like Jesus, Sane, Sterling,, Kane and Alli.
 

Inigo Montoya

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We're only 4 points off....just saying!

Yes we should have won but the panic on these forums is unbelievable at times
 
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We have to many average players but Jose is sorting this.

Outs so far:
Memphis
Morgan
Adnan

Out the team and on their way:
Rooney
Darmain
Bastian
Young
Carrick
Fellaini

Possibly in last chance saloon:
Shaw
Rojo
Smalling
Jones
Lingard

That is 14 of the squad he inherited feck me this squad Jose got was average bordering on years of trophy wilderness (League and champions league) not domestic ones granted.

Signings so far:
Zlatan- short term has been an awesome return and exact attitude we were missing.
Pogba- long term is going to be the best in the business.
Bailly- certainly looks the part time will tell.
Mykytarin- fantastic creative spark we needed.

So in my opinion another couple of seasons and Jose will have us top dogs again. Moyes well people have their opinion and he wasn't good but I think some of our players just downed tools and they got off lightly in the criticism. LVG was a disaster of a manager and spent a fortune buying lesser players than he offloaded. In Jose we have got the right man at the helm.

In the summer I'm hoping we get shot of Rojo, Smalling, Darmian, Fellaini, Lingard, Young and Rooney. You can't imagine Bastian will be here either. There are a number of players who are decent enough but who aren't United standard.
 

elmo

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We need a solid finisher, Zlatan needs some help up front and it would allow him to unleash his full potential when he's allowed to create chances for someone that can actually finish instead of Pogba smashing it over.
 

Catt

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To be fair Chelsea were bottlers last season and had then as they have now a very good squad. Tottenham are definitely a force in the league now and Arsenal and City are almost dead certs for top four. I was never thinking we would finish top four prior to season and even with our resurgence of form and unbeaten run I still didn't believe we would as we just don't do the most important thing in football very well. Which is scoring. Three seasons running our goals for column has been embarrassing based on chances created, until this changes I think we will continue to be just short of top four each season.
Sorry but I can't believe the three previous seasons was like this as we created very few chances. Our convertion rate must have been higher under LvG. This year have seen us creating chances for fun at times.
 

Lawman

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In the summer I'm hoping we get shot of Rojo, Smalling, Darmian, Fellaini, Lingard, Young and Rooney. You can't imagine Bastian will be here either. There are a number of players who are decent enough but who aren't United standard.
I hope we get rid of Bastian, Carrick, Darmain and Rooney as they don't contribute much anymore (brilliant players Carrick, Bastian and Wayne have been) they don't constitute value for money. If we could replace Carrick, Rooney and Bastian with players of quality in their positions we'd be on to a winner.
Much like my opinion of Mane last year when he was my number one want list, Griezman is my number one this year.
These guys off the ball run defenders in behind and we have got that (Rashford aside) in our team.
 

Mike09

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I admire the positivity I guess. But yeah... don't think you're quite there yet. Feck knows what that means for Liverpool then we must be light years behind
I don't think any top 6 teams are much different. Chelsea is nothing special in my opinion, they have no European competition means they are fully focus on one competition only. Especially without European competition, they don't need to do rotation and they have already found the right system and their best XI. They are surely have the better XI than us and any other teams as they have three world class players which are the most in term of quantity that every PL teams have (Kante, Costa, Hazard).

United has De Gea and Zlatan, Liverpool and Spurs have none, Arsenal has Sanchez, City has Aguero (but he's not performing that great this season) and may be De Bruyne can be in the category of world class.

Note: what I meant by world class are both mentally and technically.

And I think the Chelsea era when they used to have Robben, Drogba, Lampard, Terry, Joe Cole, Gudjohnsen, Makelele, Essien, Cole are at least three times better than this current squad. That's why I don't think they are that special at the moment.
 
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Catt

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If we put away those chances in the 1st half this thread wouldn't excist, lose and we're no good.

For me it's more of a middle ground here and we obviously lack goals. We will see a few coming in the summer and players like Young, Fellaini, Darmian & Rooney should go.

I really don't think we're all bad and not far away from a very good team.
 

rpg

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Zlatan and Pogba switched off and we are as good as 10 man Bournemouth. Anybody who thinks we are going to be world beater with Martial and Rashford leading the line are in for disappointment.
 

noodlehair

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We're embarassingly bad at kicking the ball into the goal. Quite a fundamentall problem to have when it comes to wanting to be good at football
 

CEOZucker

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We are developing them, what would you have done differently this season? I think Mourinho has handled them well overall apart from the freeze out on Martial.
I wouldn't have bought Zlatan but since he is here, he should only be starting the league games only and let Rashford and Martial start in the cups and Europa.

I don't remember Zlatan being rested or substituted.
 

Gladiator

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We're embarassingly bad at kicking the ball into the goal. Quite a fundamentall problem to have when it comes to wanting to be good at football
This! Also think some of our fans underestimate the complexity of finishing. Yes you can say it's simple "put the ball in the back of the net" but if it was that easy a lot more teams would be efficient when it come to goalscoring. Many arent. Usually the top teams are. If United is trying to reach that level, good amount will have to change otherwise, expect more of the same
 

Di Maria's angel

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We're not great, but we're still within a good chance of finishing in the top 4. We've been in fairly decent form for 4-5 months now. We've a trophy in the bag, a QF in the FA Cup, a relatively easy European game as well as being with 4 points of 2nd. Honestly, the next level is challenging for the league and we've known that we're not at the stage for a while.
 
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We're not great, but we're still within a good chance of finishing in the top 4. We've been in fairly decent form for 4-5 months now. We've a trophy in the bag, a QF in the FA Cup, a relatively easy European game as well as being with 4 points of 2nd. Honestly, the next level is challenging for the league and we've known that we're not at the stage for a while.
A fair summary. We are improving and have become more difficult to beat under Jose, but we aren't at the required level yet. It's a still a work in progress. Qualifying for the Champions League is so important this season, then the squad can be improved over the summer.
 

noodlehair

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This! Also think some of our fans underestimate the complexity of finishing. Yes you can say it's simple "put the ball in the back of the net" but if it was that easy a lot more teams would be efficient when it come to goalscoring. Many arent. Usually the top teams are. If United is trying to reach that level, good amount will have to change otherwise, expect more of the same
I think we're the worst team in the league at finishing chances. I'm fairly sure stats wouldd back that up. It's as if because we had those two games against Stoke and Burnley where we missed chances, now every single game where we're on top we immediately start panicking.

We spent the entire second half yesterday playing as if it was the last minute of a Champions League final and we were a goal down. We had 45 minutes to score 1 goal, against a team in terrible form who were playing with 10 men...and we couldn't muster up even a tiny bit of composure.

God help this set of players when there is real pressure and reason to panic in a game.
 

Gladiator

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I think we're the worst team in the league at finishing chances. I'm fairly sure stats wouldd back that up. It's as if because we had those two games against Stoke and Burnley where we missed chances, now every single game where we're on top we immediately start panicking.

We spent the entire second half yesterday playing as if it was the last minute of a Champions League final and we were a goal down. We had 45 minutes to score 1 goal, against a team in terrible form who were playing with 10 men...and we couldn't muster up even a tiny bit of composure.

God help this set of players when there is real pressure and reason to panic in a game.
Yeah we've just not gotten over the hump and until we do I think we will see similar which will probably mean we wont finish top 4. This was a big opportunity missed and i think the players know it. It's not looking good for them because dont think the club are going to sack Jose anytime soon
 

wolvored

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Count me out of thinking we were any better than this.
During our best years under Fergie we had 7-8 world class players in the team, now we have 3, one of which isn't consistent and one is the keeper who's often at the mercy of the (shit) defence in front of him.
The feck do you expect?


Maybe if the caf stops overrating players, or forever waiting for them to become world beaters, people would realise that we're currently what Liverpool have been for so long - inconsistent, not enough quality, but can play well often enough to look promising and generally hold our own against the top 4 when against them. Might sound like an overreaction but I can't see how anyone could disagree with those points.

I fully expect Jose to improve us but our current standard is certainly no better than 4th at best.
I think this sums it up the best. I would even say two WC players Ibra and De Gea. Pogba is too inconsistant, but will get there in a season or two. Even WC players can have off days like Ibra yesterday.
 

noodlehair

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Yeah we've just not gotten over the hump and until we do I think we will see similar which will probably mean we wont finish top 4. This was a big opportunity missed and i think the players know it. It's not looking good for them because dont think the club are going to sack Jose anytime soon
I don't think the club should be sacking Jose. He's improved things massively...but he needs to sort oout this lot and their complete lack of composure.

They have fighting spirit in abundance now, but absolutely no sense of how to remain cool and calculated whilst showing it.

If we need a goal in a game, we panic. If we're a goal up towards the end of a game, we panic.

The players you look at to control and orchestrate things (Pogba, Rooney, Carrick, literally all of our centrebacks) are the worst offenders. Pogba plays like Gerrard when he feels under pressure, and I don't mean that as a compliment...he tries to win the game with every touch of the ball, instead of having any thought of what the best thing to do with the ball might be. Rooney runs arounnd like an idiot. Carrick hides. Our centrebacks just seem incapable of remaining cool in any situation at all, and they are important both for defending and building attacks coherently.

It needs sorting out. It's the one problem that's lingered from last season and hasn't shown any signs of improving.

Even under LVG if our players had the composure to see games out like they should be capable of, we'd have made top 4.
 

wolvored

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If you have a look at the Standings you'll see that we scored 39 goals and that's less than the top 5 teams and some others too.

On the other hand our defence is one of the best in the Premier League.

Therefore the problem is our attack, and that's where we need to fix things primarily.
Exactly right. Plus the fact one player is scoring most of the goals should be a concern as well. Imagine if he gets red carded retrospectively, who's going to step in and score these goals. I don't have much faith in Rashford or Martial on this seasons form, and that leads to Rooney being played there.
 

Camilo

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We're not going to sweep all before us out of the way - we don't have a single wonderful player - but we are a good team, and we are unbeaten in however many games it is now. I think we're about as good as most thought, but if we're wanting to dominate games, and dictate our victories, we're a front three and two firing full backs away.

As it is, point gained on Arsenal today with 1/3 of the season still to go - a strong push too the end and we shall see.
 

Gladiator

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I don't think the club should be sacking Jose. He's improved things massively...but he needs to sort oout this lot and their complete lack of composure.

They have fighting spirit in abundance now, but absolutely no sense of how to remain cool and calculated whilst showing it.

If we need a goal in a game, we panic. If we're a goal up towards the end of a game, we panic.

The players you look at to control and orchestrate things (Pogba, Rooney, Carrick, literally all of our centrebacks) are the worst offenders. Pogba plays like Gerrard when he feels under pressure, and I don't mean that as a compliment...he tries to win the game with every touch of the ball, instead of having any thought of what the best thing to do with the ball might be. Rooney runs arounnd like an idiot. Carrick hides. Our centrebacks just seem incapable of remaining cool in any situation at all, and they are important both for defending and building attacks coherently.

It needs sorting out. It's the one problem that's lingered from last season and hasn't shown any signs of improving.

Even under LVG if our players had the composure to see games out like they should be capable of, we'd have made top 4.
Right there with you noodle. It's a mentality thing and i think last season under LVG, the players could hide under LVG whereas now, it's more on them since Jose's improved things and few people are going to blame him.

Was talking with another united fan how pogba is an individualist. in basketball, you call it a ball hog but he wants the ball but then is wasteful with it. He's struggling to bring composure in moments where's it kind of crucial to. A way to show where he needs to improve if he wants. That's why we're not as good as we think we are because there's too much inconsistency in this side. Until that's sorted, we will struggle to hit the heights we aspire to
 

glazed

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I think if Mkhi and Herrera were on the pitch yesterday instead of Rooney and Carrick, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 

togg

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Shaken, and very stirred......
Our home form has certainly let us down this season. Drawing too many, especially against teams one would consider 'win bankers'. If we'd won a few of those....we'd be right in it.
 

Peanut Butter

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We're ok. Jose hasn't even been in charge for a full season yet and we look a million times better than under Moyes and Van Gaal.

We still have improvements to make but we are getting there.

A little bit of patience is required. We will get there - we have the right manager and we're signing some damn good players. Next season we won't see Rooney and hopefully Phil Jones starting games.
 

Born2Lose

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I can't help feeling that the team as an entirety choked yesterday, and the incidents near the end of the first half had a greater effect on us rather than Bournemouth.

Still think we are missing real leaders, players like Keane and Giggs who would have taken the negative atmosphere at the end of that first half and channeled it positively into the second half performance.

I also think Jose's constant dourness and pessimistic tones aren't helping either, it's a young team relatively, which needs drive and enthusiasm from the man in charge.

I suspect it's not coincidental that our younger squad members played better under LVG than Mourinho.
 

LuisNaniencia

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I wouldn't have bought Zlatan but since he is here, he should only be starting the league games only and let Rashford and Martial start in the cups and Europa.

I don't remember Zlatan being rested or substituted.
Really? The guys that's scored all our goals?

No way would Rashford and Martial have made up his goal tally. They've both proven the are very promising works in progress this season. Zlatan was a no brainer.
 

Camilo

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If we want to start winning leagues again then the likes of Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Rooney and co must go
Rooney will go, but I'm not sure how you upgrade Smalling, Rojo and Jones with better, experienced players without spending £100 million. Who are these players we'll bring in? Bailly is on a similar level to them, has less experience and cost 30 mill...

We need to decide how we're set up long before we change central defenders! 2 in Midfield or 3?! Where's the Zlatan replacement, the (major) upgrades on Mkhitaryan, Mata and Martial (Either in their performances, or with replacements)?? LB and RB are utterly useless going forward, STILL.

The central defence is more than fine - on paper I don't think there are better players in the EPL. If Sanchez is available, spend the money there. If Griezmann is available, spend the money there. The team needs goals, not fewer English defenders.
 

serghei

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I haven't seen many United games tbh, but from what I've seen it looks like you lack attacking threat from wide positions. You have good players in those positions, but they lack that ability to beat their man in 1 vs 1 and curl the ball in the far corner, like a top class winger does. And I'm talking about doing that when the other team is set firmly in defensive positions, not on the counter, where any good player with pace can dribble and score a nice goal. But in positional, you need more players like Neymar for example, or even Alexis Sanchez. Who would receive the ball in a neutral position and individually destabilize opponents. Right now, almost everytime one of your players is in the wings, the main course of action seems to be to put in a cross for Ibrahimovic to use. That is not a very durable tactic, nor a very modern approach. You basically play the way most teams in England know how to defend.

Martial, Mikitharyan, should be players who score 15+ goals in a Premier League season. How many did they actually score? And why don't they score enough? Imo, this is down to two, or even 3 factors. 1) Their inability (atm) to consistenty turn neutral situations into goal scoring chances (either for themselves, or for their teammates, by way of assists or pre-asssists), 2) Because you do not have a first class playmaker, who could actually find clever passes under conditions of limited space, and 3) Because from what I've seen (again, I might be wrong), Mourinho tactically limits the players' movement to a pretty confined space in positional play. And when you, as a wide player, are instructed to stick to your designated area, the only way to score, or provide chances to your teammates is to possess the abilities and qualities from no1. Basically, you're playing Martial for example, the same way Luis Enrique is playing Neymar in positional play, but the difference is Neymar receives the ball and most of the time he would create havoc in his side, thus creating a 'hot-zone' for the opponent, forcing him to make a move to close that danger, which of course, leaves spaces other players can use. This is one of the classic ways to create superiority, you put your best players on the ball in positions where losing the ball is acceptable (which is the last third of the pitch, in wider positions), and you ask them to attack their opponent. And this situation usually draws some sort of reaction from the defending team, which you can, in turn, speculate. Either that defender is left alone to defend your attakcing player (which ends up in 1 vs 1 that your player can win), or the defending team brings more players around your dangerous winer, meaning more space is automatically available in other zones, and is up to the attacking team to find that space.

Basically, when you choose to play a positional game which doesn't let wide players move around alot, you force them to individually solve duels. But if they aren't great and consistent at that, you end up with less danger coming from those wide positions. Out of curiosity, how many games have you won in which Ibrahimovic did not have an important role? If the number is low (I suspect it is), imo it's because at least 1 of those 3 reasons I mentioned. If you play a more static positional game, you have to have players who are able to consistently beat their markers. You don't imo. And this is why you are basing a lot of your attacking plans on Ibrahimovic. When he has an off game (remember that he is 35), there are problems for you.

For me, again, from what I've seen, it looks like Martial is not better than he was when he was playing for Lyon. He showed flashes of brilliance in France, like he does at United as well, so that is something that was there in the first place. He's still very young, so he can become world class for sure in the next 2-3 seasons. Problem, for a team like United, is if you start using a position to raise the level of a player so that in 2-3 years you have a world class option there, you better make sure the other positions are filled with top players. But they aren't. You are even demanding more from Martial, because even if he is not nearly the finished product yet, he is still one of your better and more talented players. And that is what needs to be changed. Promising players don't have to consistently play under pressure. The pressure is supposed to be on those established world class attacking players. In this way, your 2-3 talents can really grow.
 

pascell

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Out of interest, were we 6-7 short in the summer?
Or is the classic "always" being 3-4 players away that all fans seem to talk about.
Definitely, we couldn't bring them all in at once as Mourinho needed to assess the players he inherited. He needed to see who he could rely on not to let him down and also raise their game/improve further.

He'll now have a clear understanding of what's needed to challenge on every front as our squad (mainly back up) is light in a few places.

He also couldn't bring in 7 players, ensure they all bed in and play the way he wants as that would've been impossible, he'll see it as a gradual process. We've brought in 4 and this summer he'll bring in a further 3/4 with getting a few but not a lot of players off the books. Imo this is the last summer there'll be a mass overhaul, with next summer (2018) being a fine tuning of the squad.

Our problem is when certain players aren't playing (ie Carrick, Valencia & Mkhitaryan) the team is unbalanced and doesn't perform as well, those are the areas we'll look at in the summer.
 

ivaldo

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There isn't a whole lot of difference between the top six sides.

Chelsea are like what we were in Fergies last season. We were solid and consistent but nothing special, it was just everyone else in the league were wildly inconsistent.

We really aren't that far away from challenging, I fully expect us to be in the title race this season.
 

togg

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I haven't seen many United games tbh, but from what I've seen it looks like you lack attacking threat from wide positions. You have good players in those positions, but they lack that ability to beat their man in 1 vs 1 and curl the ball in the far corner, like a top class winger does. And I'm talking about doing that when the other team is set firmly in defensive positions, not on the counter, where any good player with pace can dribble and score a nice goal. But in positional, you need more players like Neymar for example, or even Alexis Sanchez. Who would receive the ball in a neutral position and individually destabilize opponents. Right now, almost everytime one of your players is in the wings, the main course of action seems to be to put in a cross for Ibrahimovic to use. That is not a very durable tactic, nor a very modern approach. You basically play the way most teams in England know how to defend.

Martial, Mikitharyan, should be players who score 15+ goals in a Premier League season. How many did they actually score? And why don't they score enough? Imo, this is down to two, or even 3 factors. 1) Their inability (atm) to consistenty turn neutral situations into goal scoring chances (either for themselves, or for their teammates, by way of assists or pre-asssists), 2) Because you do not have a first class playmaker, who could actually find clever passes under conditions of limited space, and 3) Because from what I've seen (again, I might be wrong), Mourinho tactically limits the players' movement to a pretty confined space in positional play. And when you, as a wide player, are instructed to stick to your designated area, the only way to score, or provide chances to your teammates is to possess the abilities and qualities from no1. Basically, you're playing Martial for example, the same way Luis Enrique is playing Neymar in positional play, but the difference is Neymar receives the ball and most of the time he would create havoc in his side, thus creating a 'hot-zone' for the opponent, forcing him to make a move to close that danger, which of course, leaves spaces other players can use. This is one of the classic ways to create superiority, you put your best players on the ball in positions where losing the ball is acceptable (which is the last third of the pitch, in wider positions), and you ask them to attack their opponent. And this situation usually draws some sort of reaction from the defending team, which you can, in turn, speculate. Either that defender is left alone to defend your attakcing player (which ends up in 1 vs 1 that your player can win), or the defending team brings more players around your dangerous winer, meaning more space is automatically available in other zones, and is up to the attacking team to find that space.

Basically, when you choose to play a positional game which doesn't let wide players move around alot, you force them to individually solve duels. But if they aren't great and consistent at that, you end up with less danger coming from those wide positions. Out of curiosity, how many games have you won in which Ibrahimovic did not have an important role? If the number is low (I suspect it is), imo it's because at least 1 of those 3 reasons I mentioned. If you play a more static positional game, you have to have players who are able to consistently beat their markers. You don't imo. And this is why you are basing a lot of your attacking plans on Ibrahimovic. When he has an off game (remember that he is 35), there are problems for you.

For me, again, from what I've seen, it looks like Martial is not better than he was when he was playing for Lyon. He showed flashes of brilliance in France, like he does at United as well, so that is something that was there in the first place. He's still very young, so he can become world class for sure in the next 2-3 seasons. Problem, for a team like United, is if you start using a position to raise the level of a player so that in 2-3 years you have a world class option there, you better make sure the other positions are filled with top players. But they aren't. You are even demanding more from Martial, because even if he is not nearly the finished product yet, he is still one of your better and more talented players. And that is what needs to be changed. Promising players don't have to consistently play under pressure. The pressure is supposed to be on those established world class attacking players. In this way, your 2-3 talents can really grow.
Very interesting read. Makes total sense.