We have to hope that the 2 young wingers we brought in, make it quickly.
We need width!!
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
- Start date
Would you swap Rashford and Martial for Willian and Perisic?
We have no wingers. Lets get some first.
No worries - here's the original source; he's a very good follow if you're at all interested in some of the tactical facets of the game:Difficult reading through that. Ended up couldn't finish it. Maybe later once I get back my mental strength.
Cheers for sharing.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Telles is so needed in this ide - super unlucky for him to get COVID, but against those "low block" teams he is exactly what we need. Even his corners are super threatening.
I don't know if the poster above would and i certainly don't desire to be labelled as a "Mourinho fanboy", something that the post you quoted might hint to but, the way you present the question, it's kind of a false dilemma. And we have plenty of those floating around this forum atm.
Forget about their names, forget about the manager who wanted them and ask yourself what do the likes of Perisic and Willian bring to the table? Both of them can play on either wing, they're both excellent at carrying the ball through the lines, they are decent crossers of the ball and both of them have no problem getting on the ball in deep positions, far away from the goal, and making something productive with it. They're not stars, they're not world beaters but when you're counter-attacking or a transition-based side, they can be pretty important.
There's a fixation among many United fans that our attacking line for the next decade or so should consist of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood (or Sancho). Good players, all of them, great potential but, on the other hand, very one-dimensional too. Can't play with their backs to goal, they all like to get on the ball and run at defenders and their forward instinct doesn't allow them to see more than a basic one-two which, sadly, contributes to our passing-game in the final third being rather tepid and most of our passes being telegraphed to the opposition. And as far as this thread is concerned, the further you take them away from the box, the more their good qualities dwindle until they diminish. They offer very little when they have to drop in the midfield and help move the ball forward and when they have it up field, they usually struggle to keep it and allow the FBs and the midfielders join the attack. That's where (players like) Perisic and Willian start to make sense.
Now, there's a good chance that they'll improve and add things to their game but whenever you watch them, you see that they think and understand the game as forwards usually do. If we want to compete with them at the highest level, we'll need one hell of midfield to support them and a defensive line able to cover as much of the pitch as possible. Which is funny when you consider that Maguire is the exact opposite of that and that after 4 transfer windows, we still rely on the midfield that Mourinho left (Pogba, Matic, Fred and McT).
So, it's not a question about whether we should replace Rash and Martial or not but how we could create a well-functioning side that's more than the sum of its parts. Hence, my false dilemma argument. Similarly, the question about splurging 120 million on Sancho or not is a false dilemma too. The more important question should be what should 120 million get us? The answer for me is simple: You pay that for the final pieces of the puzzle just like Klopp did with Virgil and Alisson not for just adding some great talent on top of the already existing talent because... at some point it must click somehow.
The reason i framed the question like that is because it was widely reported that Mourinho wanted to swap Martial for Willian and even tried to set the deal up. He also according to numerous sources wanted to get rid of Rashford too. The other guy is bemoaning the fact the board didn't give Mourinho free reign in the transfer market but had they done so its quite likely he would have effectively swapped Rashford and Martial for Willian and Perisic. Two young players with great potential for two good players with most of their best years behind them or at the very least not many good years in front of them left. The club was right to not back mourinho in this endeavour as he clearly was only looking to build a team for 1-2 years before he inevitably left.
Now as players I like both Willian and peresic and wouldn’t have been averse to either or both being brought in back in 2018 to supplement what we had.
It’s been clear for years now we lack width and desperately need some top wingers.
I hear you. That's why i said that this is a discussion we should have without particular names of players and managers being used. And of course i wouldn't swap Rash and Tony for those two and i wouldn't allow Mou to do it either. And the initial post you quoted seems indeed rather... suspicious to say the least. But i do believe that, despite looking good on paper, it's more difficult than people believe to build a title-winning side around our current front-line.
We don't even need to do that, just strike some balance.
We used to have Nani on the left as the inside forward and Valencia on the right keeping the width.
Nani would come inside and play the fancy 1-2's then if it got tight Rooney would lauch it out to Valencia who would win the 1v1 and get a cross in. If he couldn't then Rafael would be steaming up on the outside ready for an over/underlap. It worked lovely.
Now we've just got 4 attacking players and a midfielder standing in the same 10 yard space trying to get the ball into feet, then wondering why we can't break teams down and easily get countered on.
The only team that really plays with 2 inside forwards succcessfully is Liverpool, and that's because they've got 2 fullbacks that fly forwards and use the wide spaces effectively, and Mane/Salah can beat players 1v1 regularly coming short or going over the top.
I don't get why Ole is trying to copy Liverpools style when we don't have the same players on ability or that suit that style.
The best football we played was having a 4-2-3-1 with Rashford left and James/Greenwood on the right.
Since we've moved more into this inside forward style it's failed miserably.
I’d largely agree mate we do need more width badly.
My question about swapping them was specifically for that poster as he seems to think Mourinho should have been given free reign to do just that.
Yeah as a front 3 with our current fullbacks Rashford, martial and Greenwood doesn’t quite work for me. Many seemed happy enough to not sign a right winger because we have mason but I think not signing sancho or someone similar will cost us this season.
Oh yeah that was bonkers. I actually wouldn't have minded Perisic and 50m was a crazy fee back then. Asking us to swap him for Martial too was just out of the question.
I think that was in 2017 wasn't it?
Was also widely reported that Mourinho tried to set up a straight swap for Martial and Willian in 2018.
Yep, when Martial was out of favour he clearly wanted rid at that stage and Woodward blocked it - probably the best thing he's done as United CEO.
Yeah martial has really been a star for us. Honestly I don’t think we could have done much worse than him just randomly buying a new attacker each transfer window
Top scorer last year, often our best player in most years since. We have a lot of issues but Martial isn't one of them.
I guarantee you if he left and went to another team he would be a star. Look at how Memphis is tearing up the french league, he has half the talent.
This why bissaka was such a poorly thought out signing, there have been plenty of good right backs that have been transferred for less than what over spent on a defensive right back that his awkward on the ball which makes little sense considering ole keeps trying to make us a team that plays out from the back?
That's not true. Width comes from positional instructions, rather than the player himself.
For example, I understand Mata is not a 'typical' winger, in that he's not going to get the ball, take players on, and put crosses in, but positionally, if Mata was told to stay wide, as opposed to drifting in, what that does is stretches teams and creates 2 v 1 overloads, instead of asking our full backs to do all the work out wide, which they clearly struggle with.
No offense but f off. When we try to play with width we get James and guess who is the most abused player?
Real football is not like FIFA. You actually need players for the positions.
Telles on the left and Traore on the right hopefully, with the former at fullback and the latter on the wing, with Wan-Bissaka probably tucking inside into basically a back 3 like Kyle Walker does for City a lot, though his passing game is probably too weak to be really effective in what is a quasi-midfield role:
Rashford------Greenwood----------
---------Bruno-----VDB--------Traore
-----------------Fred------------------------
Telles-------------------AWB------------
---------CB--Tuanzebe/Maguire--
If we assume Pogba and Ole are not here long term.
Is that enough width? No idea. Might need to replace AWB or bring in a better passer than Fred to direct things, but Rashford and Greenwood being able to both go wide and get into the box could help, same for Bruno. VDB probably not as useful out wide since he can't cross like Bruno, but he be a target and links play quickly centrally which could open up space out wide.
Rashford------Greenwood----------
---------Bruno-----VDB--------Traore
-----------------Fred------------------------
Telles-------------------AWB------------
---------CB--Tuanzebe/Maguire--
If we assume Pogba and Ole are not here long term.
Is that enough width? No idea. Might need to replace AWB or bring in a better passer than Fred to direct things, but Rashford and Greenwood being able to both go wide and get into the box could help, same for Bruno. VDB probably not as useful out wide since he can't cross like Bruno, but he be a target and links play quickly centrally which could open up space out wide.
No idea if any of Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho or Solskjaer have tried to tell him to do that but he definitely doesn't do it ever. In fact he's usually anywhere but the right wing completely unbalancing the team and leaving his fullback to be double teamed in defence and having to do it all on their own in attack down that side. All the while he's usually floating around the middle getting in peoples way, i like Mata good player but he's been a bad signing in my opinion. This teams been screaming out for a top right winger since around the time he was signed back in 2014.
the right side of the attack has genuinely been dead (with a few games here and there) since Antonio Valencia became a shell of himself. That was the last time we actually used that area consistently.
it was a nice assist and goal to be fair
If James is the most abused player, it's obviously because fans don't feel he's good enough, but in regards to positioning, when he plays on the right he stretches play. No offence, but you'd be an idiot not to see it.
Unfortunately, we are really poor at creating overloads in wide areas, with the full-back and winger. A massive reason as to why is because of our inability to hit a first-time diagonal like Scholes and Rooney used to do. This is key against compact teams. 5 yard passes across the pitch makes it easy for them to shuffle across.
Going forward, we certainly need a new winger, but more importantly, I feel we need to change our pattern of play in the final third, especially if we want to find ways of breaking down defensive teams.
A game like today is a perfect showcase of what Martial is. Lazy, gives up in any situation so goddamn easily and doesn’t do feck all
Scored from two crosses today.
Get the ball wide and get it the feck in.
Get the ball wide and get it the feck in.