Were we happy to sell Beckham and van Nistelrooy to Madrid?

[Revan]

From the Perez thread, @devilish was saying that Beckham and Nistelrooy were engineering a move to Madrid, and in some way we were forced to sell them.

On the other side, most of United fans say that we got rid of those two, and we wanted to sell them.

Now, while it is difficult to find the truth, I think that devilish is completely on the right here. If we look at Fergie's autobiography, he pretty much agrees with that.

From Rvn chapter:

I WAS at home on a snowy January night in 2010 when my phone beeped with a text message. ‘I don’t know whether you remember me,’ it started, ‘but I need to call you.’ Ruud van Nistelrooy. Christ, what was this? I said to Cathy, ‘He left four years ago.’ Cathy’s reply: ‘What’s he wanting? Maybe he’d like to come back to United.’
‘No, don’t be silly,’ I told her.
I had no idea what it might be. But I texted him back: OK. So he rang. First, the small talk. Had some injuries, fit now, not getting a game, blah blah. Then he came out with it. ‘I want to apologise for my behaviour in my last year at United.’
I like people who can apologise. I’ve always admired that. In the modern culture of self-absorption, people forget there is such a word as sorry. Footballers are cocooned by the manager and the club, the media, agents, or pals who just tell then how flipping good they are. It’s refreshing to find one who can pick up a phone much later and say, ‘I was wrong, and I’m sorry.’
Ruud offered no explanation. Perhaps I should have taken that chance to say, ‘Why did it go that way?’
Mulling over Ruud’s call to me, that winter night, I knew that two or three Premier League clubs were looking at him, but couldn’t see that being a reason for him wanting to speak to me. There would have been no need for him to repair his relationship with Manchester United in order for him to play for another club in England. Perhaps it was a guilt complex. It might have been playing on his mind for ages. Ruud was doubtless a more mature person by that stage.
The first sign of trouble in our relationship had been that Ruud had started to mouth off all the time to Carlos Queiroz about Ronaldo. There were a few stand-up confrontations, but nothing unmanageable. Then Ruud switched his fire to Gary Neville. Gary was ready for that and won the battle. David
Bellion was another who seemed to arouse anger in Ruud. There were quite a few altercations all the way through his final season with us, but it was mainly Van Nistelrooy on Ronaldo.
At the end of the previous season, 2004–05, we had reached the final of the FA Cup, against Arsenal. Van Nistelrooy had a horrible game. The previous Wednesday his agent, Rodger Linse, had sought out David Gill and asked for a move. ‘Ruud wants to leave.’
David pointed out that we had a Cup final on the Saturday, and that perhaps this wasn’t the best moment for our main centre-forward to ask to leave. David asked why he wanted to go. Rodger Linse’s reply was that Van Nistelrooy thought the team had stagnated and didn’t believe we could win the Champions League. His view was that we couldn’t win the European Cup with young players – the likes of Rooney and Ronaldo.
After the Cup final, David called Rodger and asked him to get Ruud in for a meeting with me. Our position was strong because Real Madrid were not going to pay £35 million for him. That was obvious. And it was the reason, I believe, why Ruud was asking to leave. Had Real Madrid been willing to come up with £35 million, there would have been no need for him to push for a move. He was hoping to bargain with the club to find a fee United would find acceptable. Silly idea.

From Beckham's chapter:

In his final season with us, we were aware that David’s work-rate was dropping and we had heard rumours of a flirtation between Real Madrid and David’s camp. The main issue was that his application level had dropped from its traditionally stratospheric level.

...

Then, of course, after finishing top of our Champions League group, we were drawn against Real Madrid. In Spain, for the first leg, David seemed especially keen to shake hands with Roberto Carlos, the Madrid left-back

...

David was looking for the sympathy vote from the fans. But there is no doubt there had been a direct attack on me. The move to Real Madrid was clearly accelerating. From what we could gather, there had been dialogue between his agent and Real Madrid. The first contact we had was probably in the middle of May, after our season had ended. Our chief executive, Peter Kenyon, called to say: ‘Real Madrid have been on the phone.’

If you reach the entire chapters, you can understand more, but couldn't post them (copyright issues).

Still, it looks quite clear to me that both (especially Ruud) were trying to leave United and go to Madrid. Both lowered their performances and started acted badly with the other players and manager (in Ruud's case with Queiroz too). Coincidence?

I just find it quite hard to believe that we wanted to sell them. Beckham was a world class winger and the most marketable player in the world. Ruud was probably after Henry, Eto'o and Shevchenko was the best striker in the planet (even in his last season here he scored 26 goals). It was something more than just Fergie deciding to sell them. You just don't sell those type of players unles forced too. The Madrid rumours were going on for the entire season, and at that time they started behaving unprofessionally and playing badly.

Lowering the performances in order to make the move possible isn't something new (Ibra did it for Ajax).

Discuss!

 

[Speak]

Sir Alex basically told us - in his book - that van Nistelrooy was eyeing Madrid, even before he became to much to handle.
By the time he was going, Sir Alex didn't want him. But he was looking to move to Madrid long before that.

I don't know why people don't want to admit it.

 

[Snow]

Why do I feel like I read something differently from SAF before about Beckham?

 

[Striker10]

Well firstly it sounds like Ruud wanted to leave not because it was Madrid but because he didn't believe in the quality of the squad - which is fair and also selling becks was a big loss for Ruud. Beckham - I don't think anyone truely cares? Ole did well in that position, as did Ronaldo.

 

[Speak]

Well firstly it sounds like Ruud wanted to leave not because it was Madrid but because he didn't believe in the quality of the squad - which is fair and also selling becks was a big loss for Ruud. Beckham - I don't think anyone truely cares? Ole did well in that position, as did Ronaldo.

Yet, apparently, it was only a Madrid clause he was after.

It's similar to the 'de Gea only wants to go home and be with his girlfriend' bs.
If he were that desperate to go home, he'd forgo some money and go to Atletico. But people don't want to call a spade a spade, and just say he wants to go to Madrid, and almost certainly sees them as a step up. 'Going home' just makes it an even better move, in his eyes. Big deal.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Didn't give a feck about Ruud leaving tbh, Beckham felt like a loss (not for too long as Ronaldo came that summer, and Rooney the summer after).

 

[devilish]

From the Perez thread, @devilish was saying that Beckham and Nistelrooy were engineering a move to Madrid, and in some way we were forced to sell them.

On the other side, most of United fans say that we got rid of those two, and we wanted to sell them.

Now, while it is difficult to find the truth, I think that devilish is completely on the right here. If we look at Fergie's autobiography, he pretty much agrees with that.

From Rvn chapter:



From Beckham's chapter:



If you reach the entire chapters, you can understand more, but couldn't post them (copyright issues).

Still, it looks quite clear to me that both (especially Ruud) were trying to leave United and go to Madrid. Both lowered their performances and started acted badly with the other players and manager (in Ruud's case with Queiroz too). Coincidence?

I just find it quite hard to believe that we wanted to sell them. Beckham was a world class winger and the most marketable player in the world. Ruud was probably after Henry, Eto'o and Shevchenko was the best striker in the planet (even in his last season here he scored 26 goals). It was something more than just Fergie deciding to sell them. You just don't sell those type of players unles forced too. The Madrid rumours were going on for the entire season, and at that time they started behaving unprofessionally and playing badly.

Lowering the performances in order to make the move possible isn't something new (Ibra did it for Ajax).

Discuss!

thanks mate

 

[Sarni]

How wrong was van Nistelrooy about us not winning Champions League? He went and a year later we won the league, two years later and we had Champions League while he never progressed past Last 16 in the remainder of his career.

 

[K2K]

Sir Alex basically told us - in his book - that van Nistelrooy was eyeing Madrid, even before he became to much to handle.
By the time he was going, Sir Alex didn't want him. But he was looking to move to Madrid long before that.

I don't know why people don't want to admit it.

It may mean that players are actively trying to leave us for Madrid..and that is a rather bitter pill to swallow.

 

[The Law of Denis]

Ruud by the time he left was comfortably second choice, although he would have gotten plenty of games due to Saha's fitness issues, he was very obviously slowing down our attack and past his usual excellent standard. We did not look back on selling him, he was a cancer in the dressing room. In the end, if he had stayed and was less of an ass he could have been in Sir Alex's best team.

Beckham I think hurt a lot more, he was the golden boy, home grown, number 7 and beloved by all. There was no he could have stayed after defying Sir Alex.

 

[rcoobc]

Well firstly it sounds like Ruud wanted to leave not because it was Madrid but because he didn't believe in the quality of the squad - which is fair and also selling becks was a big loss for Ruud. Beckham - I don't think anyone truely cares? Ole did well in that position, as did Ronaldo.

I dont think this is about the players, this is about the Madrid-United relationship.

The "I wouldn't sell them a Virus" mentality came from somewhere to be fair,

 

[Wumminator]

Why do I feel like I read something differently from SAF before about Beckham?

Because Beckham has somehow manipulated everyone into thinking he got kicked out of his boyhood club, rather than forcing a move.

 

[J-Stander]

Ruud was supposedly a bit of a cnut near the end. Remember him being left out of the league cup final and then having a scrap with Ronaldo and saying something about his dad. I don't think Fergie was too arsed about getting rid of him.

 

[The Law of Denis]

I dont think this is about the players, this is about the Madrid-United relationship.

The "I wouldn't sell them a Virus" mentality came from somewhere to be fair,

People need to remember that Sir Alex was talking about Calderon, the previous Real Madrid president, when he said that.

 

[11101]

We werent forced to sell them by any means, but Madrid had been tapping them up and acting their usual selves.

 

[Scarecrow]

Beckham has repeatedly said that he didn't want to leave, that he never wanted to leave and he talked to Real only after United had told him he's about to be sold. His agent might have done something else but I don't think he's lying about this.

 

[K2K]

Because Beckham has somehow manipulated everyone into thinking he got kicked out of his boyhood club, rather than forcing a move.

I think that too..Beckham has a great PR team,almost too good that he comes across as fake..and Fergie hated all that celebrity business and has never been afraid to state it.

 

[Snow]

Because Beckham has somehow manipulated everyone into thinking he got kicked out of his boyhood club, rather than forcing a move.

I'm not thinking about "something" I read. I'm thinking about previous comments from SAF. Something selling him because of what his lifestyle was becoming, hinting at Victoria or something like that.

 

[Dan]

I remember Barcelona being in for Beckham.

 

[Revan]

Ruud by the time he left was comfortably second choice, although he would have gotten plenty of games due to Saha's fitness issues, he was very obviously slowing down our attack and past his usual excellent standard. We did not look back on selling him, he was a cancer in the dressing room. In the end, if he had stayed and was less of an ass he could have been in Sir Alex's best team.

Beckham I think hurt a lot more, he was the golden boy, home grown, number 7 and beloved by all. There was no he could have stayed after defying Sir Alex.

Not really. He was a starter and our best striker. He got benched only in the last 10 games of the season or so, but that wasn't for footballing reasons. By then, SAF had decided to sell him and so even Giussepe Rossi was starting ahead of him (when Saha wasn't available).

If Ruud wouldn't have been pushing for a move, he would have never got benched. He was light years ahead of Saha in terms of footballing ability.

 

[The Law of Denis]

Not really. He was a starter and our best striker. He got benched only in the last 10 games of the season or so, but that wasn't for footballing reasons. By then, SAF had decided to sell him and so even Giussepe Rossi was starting ahead of him (when Saha wasn't available).

If Ruud wouldn't have been pushing for a move, he would have never got benched. He was light years ahead of Saha in terms of footballing ability.

We can agree to disagree here. I believe that Saha's movement and superior ability to link up play offered us a dimension that Ruud was not giving us by that point.

 

[Jagga7]

Not really. He was a starter and our best striker. He got benched only in the last 10 games of the season or so, but that wasn't for footballing reasons. By then, SAF had decided to sell him and so even Giussepe Rossi was starting ahead of him (when Saha wasn't available).

If Ruud wouldn't have been pushing for a move, he would have never got benched. He was light years ahead of Saha in terms of footballing ability.

He was easily 2nd choice when he left. We played a lot better with Saha upfront, there were rumours of him and Ronaldo having a bust up I remember. RVN was a great goal scorer but we benefited greatly from Saha's added movement and speed. This was entirely justified when we won the season the season after playing some of the best football seen under Fergie.

 

[Kag]

Ruud clearly agitated for the move, but Beckham would have been inclined to stay had he not been made clear where he stood with regards the manager.

The latter was done at the top level, and we offloaded at the right time. The former was still very, very good, but we can hardly regret it now.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I remember Barcelona being in for Beckham.

They were, but missed out so signed Ronaldinho (beating us to his signature) instead.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

They were, but missed out so signed Ronaldinho (beating us to his signature) instead.

And Beckham wanted Barcelona.

 

[Revan]

He was easily 2nd choice when he left. We played a lot better with Saha upfront, there were rumours of him and Ronaldo having a bust up I remember. RVN was a great goal scorer but we benefited greatly from Saha's added movement and speed. This was entirely justified when we won the season the season after playing some of the best football seen under Fergie.

That is like saying that De Gea is now second choice (assuming that we don't play him 'till January) and then sell him.

He is second choice, but that it isn't for football reasons.

 

[K2K]

Beckham has repeatedly said that he didn't want to leave, that he never wanted to leave and he talked to Real only after United had told him he's about to be sold. His agent might have done something else but I don't think he's lying about this.

Its his word against Fergie..and I believe Sir Alex in this case..there is no way that an agent starts negotiations with another club without his client knowing about it, especially a client as big as Beckham..At times, agents get blamed unfairly, but most of the time, its the client that wants the move, and the agent simply facilitate it(Just like with Ronaldo and DDG imo)

 

[rcoobc]

Its his word against Fergie..and I believe Sir Alex in this case..there is no way that an agent starts negotiations with another club without his client knowing about it, especially a client as big as Beckham..At times, agents get blamed unfairly, but most of the time, its the client that wants the move, and the agent simply facilitate it(Just like with Ronaldo and DDG imo)

Sometimes they just want a bigger contract though. Usually that's when we get called in.

 

[Minimalist]

Neither player was missed. Harsh as it is on the individuals. I think the Beckham transfer hurt a bit due to his image more than anything.

After RVN left, United immediately began playing the best football (consistently throughout the season) I've seen at the club and I haven't seen anything as good since. God I miss 2006/07.

 

[K2K]

Sometimes they just want a bigger contract though. Usually that's when we get called in.

..That too.

 

[Jagga7]

That is like saying that De Gea is now second choice (assuming that we don't play him 'till January) and then sell him.

He is second choice, but that it isn't for football reasons.

Totally different. We had been struggling as a team for a few seasons while Chelsea were dominating. I remember we totally bombed in the CL that year also. Saha came in and was a much better fit for that team and he stayed there.

In the end we were happy to sell both Beckham and RVN as both of their time at United at come to an end and we were playing better without them in the team.

 

[K2K]

Neither player was missed. Harsh as it is on the individuals. I think the Beckham transfer hurt a bit due to his image more than anything.

After RVN left, United immediately began playing the best football (consistently throughout the season) I've seen at the club and I haven't seen anything as good since. God I miss 2006/07.

I agree to that, but I think what @devilish is saying is that at the time of the sale, they were the ones that forced the move..and had it not been been for that, we would have kept them.

 

[Mockney]

Is it still sacrilege to point out that SAF's book might not be the most objective view of events, in either case?

This seems fairly self evident in any biography, Fergie or otherwise.

 

[Ixion]

I think Sir Alex was happy to sell both, in a perfect world their form wouldn't have dipped and there would have been no off-field nonsense but the situations as they were we were fine with them leaving.

I was personally not fussed to see Ruud leave but I wanted Beckham to stay and work things out.

 

[Invictus]

Van Nistelrooy leaving United in 2006 was probably the best thing that could've happened to the club, and this coming from a major fan of the player. Because of his profile as an orthodox #9, and the experienced head of the frontline - shepherding the young duo, we were forced to play a rigid style of football with him being the focal point, and that didn't extract the 100% out of Ronaldo's abilities because the emphasis was on Ruud. Not surprising that our attacking unit as a whole became more fluid with Ronaldo taking center stage and Fergie transitioning to an inter-changable front that was a lot more dynamic and varied. Remember being distraught at the time, but in hindsight, he left at just the perfect time with Rooney, and especially Ronaldo coming into their own and assuming control of the attack. Can't be dissatisfied with the medium term result of the move.

As for Beckham, I really don't believe he wanted to leave, he just seemed to love the club too much, all his friend were there, and Madrid was the big wide unknown. Fergie was reportedly the one who sent him over the edge, being more than fed up with his growing status as a transcendent 'brand', and specifically the whole Becks-Posh alliance, so I doubt he (the marketing department is another matter) was unhappy letting him go, especially with Ronaldinho lined up in equivalent exchange. Kenyon messing the deal up was a more egregious offense in Fergie's eyes IMO.

Anyway, with both transfers, there are two ways of looking at things. The short term reaction/ dissatisfaction, and the longer term view. Without Beckham leaving, and Ronaldinho not signing, we probably wouldn't have signed the 4th Ballon D'Or winner in the club's history. Without Ruud leaving, Ronaldo might have scored fewer goals, and been less influential in the overall scheme of things. Looking back now, I personally don't care that either left to be honest, aside from the emotional reaction at the time because the club entered a period that is arguably the greatest 5-6 year stretch in its entire history - starting off with the 2006 Carling Cup final that ended the club's short barren spell, ended Chelsea's period of dominance; to 5 league titles, 3 European Cup finals and so forth.

Can't say for certain if Beckham was tapped up, more inclined to say nah. Ruud I'm kind of unsure on, but his behavior suggests maybe. Also, is there something lost in translation here? Is this a 100 % factual account of what went on? If it is, then this might sound overly simplistic, but from a United perspective if you're swayed by Madrid's interest and can't keep United at the forefront of your thoughts, and can't act in professional manner (more so for Ruud who was reportedly turning into a dressing room/ training ground nuisance, hurled cuss words at Fergie after not playing a minute of the Carling 2006 Cup Final, even tearing off the medal in front of the impressionable young ones), then you're off being shipped out, and not being a part of the club's plans going forward. So even if one or both were tapped up, semantics aside, I don't really care.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I don't know others but I definitely didn't want to sell them at that time, especially for peanuts! But looking back we've sign Ronaldo as replacement so maybe it's a good decision afterall.

 

[sullydnl]

As I remember it, the rumours linking both Beckham and RVN to Real came first. With that hanging over them, their relationship with SAF then began to deteriorate, to the point where they really had to go.

By the end we were probably happy enough to sell them alright. The question is how big a role Real flirting with them led to their fall out with SAF. If it was a big (or especially deliberate) part then I guess you could say Real lured them away. Otherwise, Real just maintained an interest in them and picked them up when the opportunity arose.

 

[NoLogo]

I think it's probably a mix of both. If a player wasn't giving 100% for the club anymore and thinking about playing for someone else they had automatically lost SAF's support and he would not stop them from leaving. I think the motto "No player is bigger than the club" wasn't just a phrase for SAF, he really lived that motto.

 

[devilish]

I remember Barcelona being in for Beckham.

Yep and so were Bayern

 

[Theonas]

In the case of Ruud, I think it simply sounds like he was open to moving to Madrid from day one. When our performances dipped and he did not have confidence in the quality of our squad, he pushed for the move more aggressively. Fergie was smart enough to anticipate that and plan around it so by the end he was not missed. In the case of Beckham however, I really think both him and Fergie are not telling it like it was. Beckham wants it to come across like he was kicked out of his boyhood club and Fergie wants it to look like Beckham's heart was not in it anymore which meant it was best to get rid. The truth as usual was probably somewhere in the middle. Beckham was probably attracted to the idea of expanding his portfolio and having more freedom commercially and Fergie was simply fed up with the circle around him. When you add 2 and 2 together, the best outcome for all parties was to part ways.

People want to narrow down every story as a straight case of "he left us for them" or "we got rid of them" when reality is usually a wee bit more complicated than that but what you gonna do, narratives sell and they always will.