What is worth? What is value? What is £10m?

[Shakesy]

How do you judge the value of a player?

After reading a whole lot of bitching about potentially paying £80m for Maguire and not £70m I asked myself that question. How do fans or whoever judge value. Where do they get these estimates from? Newspapers? Pundits? That outspoken geezer in the pub?

Can a 15% price increase be the difference between a good or a bad deal?

VVD's fee was steep, but turned out to be a "shrewd investment". AWB's fee was first seen as "on the high side" and has since been viewed as being "on the low side". Does one transfer immediately change the perceptions of another made a little earlier in the window? When people make a value judgement, do they consider inflation? What is inflation in football anyway? 300%?

The true value of something can only be determined when you know everything there is to know about a product (player), determine the supply and demand, and weigh it up with similar products on the market.

We've all seen Maguire play, but what about James, for instance? We don't know him well enough. We knew we wanted him, we knew almost no-one else was in for him, and we didn't know what a speedy, inexperienced winger would sell for in the current window. So, did we get a good deal?

If we buy Maguire for £40m and he stinks out the place - was it a good deal?
If we buy him for £100m and he is the catalyst we were dreaming of - was it a good deal?
Can we truly judge a good price from a bad one before we see the effect the person has had?

It's priceless hearing all these prices being bandied about and debated. It's like walking around in a Turkish market.

So, maybe you can tell me how you differentiate a good deal from a bad deal. Where do you get your figures from?

 

[2 man midfield]

Against other players. This is how clubs do it as well, which is why the market has been spiralling lately.

“Well if Van Dijk is worth 75m, Maguire is worth 70m at least!”

At the end of the day though, as is the case everywhere else, the true value is only what someone is prepared to pay. The problem is, most clubs are awash with more money than sense. Add in a touch of desperation in our case, and you’ll see us shaking hands with Leicester on that very valuation.

 

[Shakesy]

Against other players. This is how clubs do it as well, which is why the market has been spiralling lately.

“Well if Van Dijk is worth 75m, Maguire is worth 70m at least!”

At the end of the day though, as is the case everywhere else, the true value is only what someone is prepared to pay. The problem is, most clubs are awash with more money than sense. Add in a touch of desperation in our case, and you’ll see us shaking hands with Leicester on that very valuation.

So, if I bought a £30 hat for £300, then my hat is now a £300 hat? My insurance company will have something to say about that. It remains a £30 hat. So, what is Maguire actually worth? I don't think anyone has the faintest idea. That's where the trouble lies. It's all subjective.

 

[Drainy]

There is only a moderate relation between fees for different players because how good a player is really is subjective. Then you have:

Current length and value of the contract
Terms in the contract
The financial strength of both parties
How much the player wants to leave
How much competition there is for the player
The talent of the negotiation teams
etc.

 

[Delano]

It's not the fact that we'd be buying Maguire for a 80 million that is the issue in and of itself. It's the fact we have seen ourselves overpay for mediocrity over the last 6 years and have barely sold anyone for a decent fee.

We have a reputation for overpaying and underselling which is why as a fan base, the thought of paying £80million for Maguire (more than De Light) brings a sense of deja vu.

Maguire may be a great signing, but the overriding issue is that other clubs continue to mug us off in the market and by paying these crazy fees, we continue to let them do so.

 

[Gopher Brown]

He might not help us win the league, but he might help us finish (sigh) fourth and secure the money which comes with CL qualification which is potentially more than £80m.

 

[Shakesy]

It's not the fact that we'd be buying Maguire for a 80 million that is the issue in and of itself. It's the fact we have seen ourselves overpay for mediocrity over the last 6 years and have barely sold anyone for a decent fee.

We have a reputation for overpaying and underselling which is why as a fan base, the thought of paying £80million for Maguire (more than De Light) brings a sense of deja vu.

Maguire may be a great signing, but the overriding issue is that other clubs continue to mug us off in the market and by paying these crazy fees, we continue to let them do so.

And in doing so our club inflates the market for everyone. Talk about a weak link in the chain. We need need more Levys less Eds to tame this beast!

 

[Reynoldo]

So, if I bought a £30 hat for £300, then my hat is now a £300 hat? My insurance company will have something to say about that. It remains a £30 hat. So, what is Maguire actually worth? I don't think anyone has the faintest idea. That's where the trouble lies. It's all subjective.

The "true" value is kinda meaningless your right as none of these players are actually worth these crazy money sums being thrown about and it makes it all kinda feel like monopoly money but its been that way for a long time. That been said what @2 man midfield is also correct the value is what someone is prepared to pay. The problem is we are basically known suckers at this stage with a deserved reputation for overpaying so it will be one price for us and another price for someone like Juve in the same market. The only way to stop this is to stop overpaying (Like City seem to refuse to do but it helps when you are that good) Unfortunately we are not in a position now not to pay these crazy amounts as we are desperate and everyone knows it. We can only enforce this from a positions of strength once we are back on top.

Also not your point I know but if you bought a £300 pound hat and have a receipt then your hat is worth £300 surely, doesn't matter if you could buy it somewhere else for £30 quid or in a back ally market in China for £3.

 

[Gopher Brown]

It's not the fact that we'd be buying Maguire for a 80 million that is the issue in and of itself. It's the fact we have seen ourselves overpay for mediocrity over the last 6 years and have barely sold anyone for a decent fee.

We have a reputation for overpaying and underselling which is why as a fan base, the thought of paying £80million for Maguire (more than De Light) brings a sense of deja vu.

Maguire may be a great signing, but the overriding issue is that other clubs continue to mug us off in the market and by paying these crazy fees, we continue to let them do so.

Yes, but if we don’t pay the fees we don’t get the players and we stand still. The issue is our problem with identifying players earlier and taking a chance on them. I hope we’ve done that with James and that’s more of a signal for the future.

Clubs no longer have to sell their best players because of the massive TV money. I refuse to believe there isn’t a player out there of comparable quality to Maguire for a fraction of the price, but until we have our shit together to find these players, this is our only option.

But then again, Lindelof and Bailly still cost us the best part of £70m, so I’m not sure what the solution is

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Honestly, as a Man Utd fan in this day and age, I couldn't give the beginnings of a feck about value...

That's not to negate the conversation for other people. But for me, value (especially around 10m) is for clubs like Watford, or Southampton, or Everton, or Burnley, or even Spurs.

But when you know the fecking money that this great club generates on it's own, it just seems ridiculous to be talking about 'value'.

In fact, with Utd, as perverse as it sounds, I'm at the point with the Glazers where I almost want them to pay over the odds! I want to see big money signings, I want to see mental transfer windows from Utd right now - because we fecking need it.

At the very least, I'm utterly ambivalent.

We're a giant, we should be using our wealth to crush other teams around us. And I won't humour the Glazers by talking about fecking 'value'.

 

[2 man midfield]

So, if I bought a £30 hat for £300, then my hat is now a £300 hat? My insurance company will have something to say about that. It remains a £30 hat. So, what is Maguire actually worth? I don't think anyone has the faintest idea. That's where the trouble lies. It's all subjective.

To you, yes. But you could also be a mug. It doesn’t necessarily mean your insurance company has to share that valuation. It’s all subjective, and as such there is no objective market value. It’s constantly fluctuating.

 

[Kag]

If you’re prepared to spend £70 million on a player you believe will significantly improve part of your team then you’re probably prepared to pay £80 or £90 million. Selling clubs know that.

Plus, most of what you read in newspapers and on websites is public relations posturing from clubs. Club A knows it will sell to Club B. Club B want to make sure they are getting good value. Club A want to make sure they don’t like they are bending over and spreading their cheeks.

 

[Saffron]

What is worth? Bebe don’t hurt me, don’t hurt me, no more.

United’s decision to not stock up on good, young players when prices were reasonable is hurting us a lot. Even shipping them away like Zaha. Now we have to play catch up.

 

[Shakesy]

To you, yes. But you could also be a mug. It doesn’t necessarily mean your insurance company has to share that valuation. It’s all subjective, and as such there is no objective market value. It’s constantly fluctuating.

So, £80m can be a good fee for Maguire and it can be an inflated one. I agree, it fluctuates. It fluctuates even after the purchase has been made. Which means we cannot ever be certain whether a fee was good or bad until long after it was made. And by then we will be too busy questioning how Justin Kluivert was sold for £1.2billion.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

So, if I bought a £30 hat for £300, then my hat is now a £300 hat? My insurance company will have something to say about that. It remains a £30 hat. So, what is Maguire actually worth? I don't think anyone has the faintest idea. That's where the trouble lies. It's all subjective.

Just in case you're confused - you do understand that Maguire is a football player and not a hat, right?

 

[Shakesy]

Just in case you're confused - you do understand that Maguire is a football player and not a hat, right?

Did you know there is a book entitled "Magic Maguire and the happy hat"?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Did you know there is a book entitled "Magic Maguire and the happy hat"?

How much does it cost?

 

[Shakesy]

How much does it cost?

300 quid I tells ya! But what is it worth?!?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

300 quid I tells ya! But what is it worth?!?

 

[stevoc]

So, if I bought a £30 hat for £300, then my hat is now a £300 hat? My insurance company will have something to say about that. It remains a £30 hat. So, what is Maguire actually worth? I don't think anyone has the faintest idea. That's where the trouble lies. It's all subjective.

When you bought it yes it was worth £300. But as soon as you decide to sell it then it's only worth as much as the next buyer is willing to pay for it.

 

[Njord]

I've noticed that I've completely stopped caring about the amount of money we pay. What's most important for me is that we secure the reinforcements we need. If we spend £100 million on Maguire and don't buy anyone else, because we're out of money, then it is a bad deal. But if we have another £200 million lying around and buy two or three more players that we need, then I don't care how much we spend. Better to spend it on players than dividens to the Glazers.

 

[George The Best]

Tbf we’ve splashed a fair bit of cash in the transfer market since the Glazers took over. Our problem is that we’ve spent it very, very badly. Why, because nobody in the management of this club has a clue about football, or the real ‘value’ of players. Hence we renew contracts for dross and completely miss opportunities to invest wisely. Ed doesn’t have a clue how to evaluate football players, but he’s great at deciding who our next dildo sponsor should be.

 

[Shakesy]

When you bought it yes it was worth £300. But as soon as you decide to sell it then it's only worth as much as the next buyer is willing to pay for it.

But what if my hat cost £80 million and I ended third in the League of Hats, was it a good price to pay? When I bought the hat, other hat-sellers were laughing, but now my hat is the envy of town. But I have another one.
That hat I bought 5 years ago for $3.50? It could be worth a lot more than my £80 million hat, because it has contributed so much more to my hatness.

A hat's value is not what someone would to pay for it, or even what I paid for it. It is much more than that.

 

[Reynoldo]

But what if my hat cost £80 million and I ended third in the League of Hats, was it a good price to pay? When I bought the hat, other hat-sellers were laughing, but now my hat is the envy of town. But I have another one.
That hat I bought 5 years ago for $3.50? It could be worth a lot more than my £80 million hat, because it has contributed so much more to my hatness.

A hat's value is not what someone would to pay for it, or even what I paid for it. It is much more than that.

Right...hats it for me, I’m off to bed

 

[2 man midfield]

But what if my hat cost £80 million (bear with me) and I end third in the League of Hats, was it a good price to pay? When I bought the hat, other hat-sellers were laughing, but now my hat is the envy of town. But I have another one.
That hat I bought 5 years ago for $3.50? It could be worth a lot more than my £80 million hat, because it has contributed so much more to my hatness.

A hat's value is not what someone would to pay for it, or even what I paid for it. It is much more than that.

The problem we have is, it’s absolutely pissing it down at the moment, and there are very few other hats on the market. So imagine you’re trying to buy a new hat, in the rain, while everyone knows you have a shit hat.

Imagine then you were told you had to buy a hat from a particular store where hats come at a premium for no other reason than where they were made, and because they apparently are more proven to fit in amongst your other hats or something.

Then consider that the hat salesman knows all this, and therefore he wants a lot for his hat, because he knows if we don’t pay it, we will have to walk down the street until next May with our current, very leaky hat letting in all the rain.

So that hat that might only be worth £60m to our sky blue friend with an already fabulous and watertight hat, suddenly becomes worth even more to us since we’d quite like to stay dry. So we hand over the money while the hat salesman laughs, and other shoppers exhange memes about the price of our overpriced hat. But we don’t care, because we’re dryer than we were last season, and that’s worth every penny to us.

The only problem is we’re still toothless up top, so have to visit the dentist on the way home.

 

[Shakesy]

The problem we have is, it’s absolutely pissing it down at the moment, and there are very few other hats on the market. So imagine you’re trying to buy a new hat, in the rain, while everyone knows you have a shit hat.

Imagine then you were told you had to buy a hat from a particular store where hats come at a premium for no other reason than where they were made, and because they apparently are more proven to fit in amongst your other hats or something.

Then consider that the hat salesman knows all this, and therefore he wants a lot for his hat, because he knows if we don’t pay it, we will have to walk down the street until next May with our current, very leaky hat letting in all the rain.

So that hat that might only be worth £60m to our sky blue friend with an already fabulous and watertight hat, suddenly becomes worth even more to us since we’d quite like to stay dry. So we hand over the money while the hat salesman laughs, and other shoppers exhange memes about the price of our overpriced hat. But we don’t care, because we’re dryer than we were last season, and that’s worth every penny to us.

The only problem is we’re still toothless up top, so have to visit the dentist on the way home.

Especially 'cause we're leaky at the back.

 

[stevoc]

But what if my hat cost £80 million and I ended third in the League of Hats, was it a good price to pay? When I bought the hat, other hat-sellers were laughing, but now my hat is the envy of town. But I have another one.
That hat I bought 5 years ago for $3.50? It could be worth a lot more than my £80 million hat, because it has contributed so much more to my hatness.

A hat's value is not what someone would to pay for it, or even what I paid for it. It is much more than that.

Well you can value it at £80M, £35m, £25m, £15m or whatever and you might love it and think its great but if no one else wants to pay any money for it and only offer to take a loan of it. Then unfortunately its worth feck all and in that case you are then stuck with a Darmian you don't want or need anymore, eh i mean a hat you don't want.

 

[Needham]

Did Jose Mourinho write the thread title?

 

[LoneStar]

So, if I bought a £30 hat for £300, then my hat is now a £300 hat? My insurance company will have something to say about that. It remains a £30 hat. So, what is Maguire actually worth? I don't think anyone has the faintest idea. That's where the trouble lies. It's all subjective.

Does some very famous company not do that ?

Forgot the name, but all they do is put up their logo on readymade products (clothing and shoes), and the price is bumped up by 10-100x.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

It's not the fact that we'd be buying Maguire for a 80 million that is the issue in and of itself. It's the fact we have seen ourselves overpay for mediocrity over the last 6 years and have barely sold anyone for a decent fee.

We have a reputation for overpaying and underselling which is why as a fan base, the thought of paying £80million for Maguire (more than De Light) brings a sense of deja vu.

Maguire may be a great signing, but the overriding issue is that other clubs continue to mug us off in the market and by paying these crazy fees, we continue to let them do so.

We do overpay and undersell, however that has a lot to do with circumstance. For example, the last time we sold a player that we didn't want to sell was Ronaldo, and we made out pretty good there. Any other time we have sold a player it's been because we didn't want that player anymore. So if we don't want him, the price goes down. However, as seen in the case of CR7, when we do want the player, the price goes up. This is why we should be playing hardball with Pogba. Personally, I want him gone as quick as possible, but I understand why we are holding out for the right price. If Juve or Real Madrid don't pay that price, then feck them and feck Pogba because regardless of what he wants, he's going to stay.

On the flip side, Leicester isn't interested in selling their best defender, so because of that, the price goes up. Gone are the days when we could just look at a mid-level club and buy their best players for a relatively good price. Today a club like Leicester doesn't need the money, so our buying power isn't as strong as it once was. Not to mention the player is locked into a contract so unlike being in his last year, we have to pay up if we want to get him.

Bottom line though is transfer fees have gotten way out of hand. But I guess that's what happens when clubs are making money. It just means out scouts are going to have to work a little harder to earn their keep...hell, Leicester found Kante in a division 2 team in France and paid 5.6m for him. They found Mahrez in the same league and paid 750k for him (these 2 players alone have netted over 80m for Leicester from their sales). They also found Vardy playing non-league football and paid 1m for him. I'm not saying we have to start scouting all the lower leagues to find talent, but our scouts definitely have to do a better job. Maguire alone could have been bought from Hull for only 17m a couple years ago...

 

[ChaddyP]

A player is worth whatever you are willing to pay. You're welcome

 

[RedRonaldo]

Fundamentally it’s buyers/sellers market, but most would reference from the market value, for example, when similar type of player/transfer cost that much, other club may ask for similar.

 

[Sassy Colin]

No value in the millinery market.

 

[langster]

£10 million

 

[He'sRaldo]

How do you judge the value of a player?

The price is usually driven by several things at any given time. Unfortunately for us, the prices we pay reflect our ineptitude. We haven't been smart with purchases at all recently.


Take a look at our recent transfers; we've bought players at the wrong times (immediately after their hype season), we've bought players from the richest teams and leagues, we've bought players from the worst type of agents possible, we've bought players at the last minute, etc. All these, combined with the fact that everyone knows we have money, means we are often forced to pay more than what is necessary; problem is, we rarely look for quality bargains, or release clauses to balance these out. And that's without talking about our ability to sell, which seems just as abysmal for similar reasons.


With regards to your question, at the end of the day it's all about value for money. We haven't bought poor quality players per se, but have been really poor in providing a platform for them to showcase their quality. Had we overspent and won big trophies it would be justified.

 

[Ashes1396]

Worth = (Buying team Want * Need) * Player Postion Benchmark * English tax * Premier League proven tax * commercial value * performance index * player motivation * (Selling team Want * Need) * level of competition * financial revenue * champions league place * chance of winning trophy * manager rating * location * weather * language * age * experience * leadership qualities * negotiating skills

There are a lot of variables; the formula is somewhere in there.

 

[Champ]

Value/worth is whatever anyone is willing to pay for that object.
To use the analogy of the hat from earlier in the thread, if someone paid £300 for a hat that's labelled up as £30 then that hat is worth £300, however it may not be worth £300 to anyone else,
The whole of the free market works on this basis,
Money itself is only worth what we deem it to be worth because that's what we are told, the actual object is worthless.
Google Fiat money to understand more.
Maguire may not be worth £70m to most people but if someone's willing to pay £70m than lo and behold he IS worth that.

 

[roonster09]

It's near impossible for fans to judge the price, people just throw numbers randomly for discussing few things.

Price depends on lot of factors, like how important player is for selling club, length of contact, nationality (for HG rule), other transfers in the near past, how rich the buying club is, how badly player wants out, financial stability of the selling club and many more.

Whether the player is worth the money is always tricky one, we will only know once the player play for the club and see how much he can help to achieve the goals.

 

[Shakesy]

A player is worth whatever you are willing to pay. You're welcome

But that means Jones is worthless and we know that isn't true. He's dogshit, but he's not worthless.

 

[Shakesy]

It's near impossible for fans to judge the price, people just throw numbers randomly for discussing few things.

Price depends on lot of factors, like how important player is for selling club, length of contact, nationality (for HG rule), other transfers in the near past, how rich the buying club is, how badly player wants out, financial stability of the selling club and many more.

Whether the player is worth the money is always tricky one, we will only know once the player play for the club and see how much he can help to achieve the goals.

Here we go!