Close the thread. Win here.
What makes Herrera good?
- Thread starter ThomasEmil
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I know what kind of tasks that defender and midfield need to do and you don't need to questioned that to me. And I think you are the one who don't understand the term of being complete or being good. Vidic is a great defender but not complete since he lacks something. Defenders is called good or great if they are good with defending but they will called complete if they can do even more than defending and that's why Rio is more complete. Herrera is good midfielder but he's not a complete since he lacks something that a box to box or no8 needs to have which is a physical attribute and other stuff, and both Dembele and Pogba have almost all the attributes that Herrera has and that's why they both are more complete than Herrera.
Being good and complete is two different things and you are confused about this and I never have argued or denied about Herrera being not good this season I'm just saying he's not as complete as Dembele and Pogba.
What did Vidic lack as a defender?
I think we're just going round in circles. I think Herrera is great and I would class him as a complete midfielder. You don't and that's your opinion.
Last edited:
Dembele is a fantastic player but I think his style of play would suit only a very small group of teams and neither of the big teams. He is really a niche player and while I agree that he is a more complete footballer I don't think he is a more complete midfielder than Herrara. If he were to join us, his direct competition would be Pogba and not Herrara, and clearly Pogba is the better player.
Pace and ball distribution. That's why he's not complete defender, if he's a complete defender he could have played as a ball playing centre back.
Again, you seem classified a "great" and "complete" as the same thing which is not. Well not just my opinion, it seems there are more than me who are trying to tell you that Pogba or Dembele are more complete than Herrera.
I think your definition of "complete" is flawed and you are talking about natural physical talent.
Every player has pros and cons. Rio was poor in the air and susceptible to losses in concentration and mistakes. Does that make him "complete"? Vidic was a much better defender.
Similarly, Herrera is not naturally athletic but has far better reading of the game, better defensive instincts and game intelligence than Pogba. You just seem to value those abilities less than being a skillful physical specimen.
I'd encourage people to watch some of Herrera's compilations from his days at Bilbao. He's changed his game to suit a different role he's being asked too know, but as an AM there under Bielsa he learned the value of pressing higher up the pitch and he's brought it to United.
From an attacking sense it's pretty clear he has more in his locker then he shows in his distribution, which imo is because of the role he's being asked to play. Even at his best he was no Pogba or Carrick in being able to ping the ball all around the pitch, but he's more capable of dribbling past defenders or playing balls between the lines than we see now. LVG neutered his attacking instincts far too much, but I think Mourinho is asking him to curtail them to serve a valuable role in the team and it's working.
Personally I think his natural progression will eventually lead him to become a successor to Carrick and we'll have to find a replacement for him, but we'll see. Fwiw he played as the holding midfielder at Stamford Bridge in 14/15. We lost the match 1-0, but I thought him and Shaw had standout performances and for Herrera to do it in a role he hadn't played very much before always stuck in my head.
From an attacking sense it's pretty clear he has more in his locker then he shows in his distribution, which imo is because of the role he's being asked to play. Even at his best he was no Pogba or Carrick in being able to ping the ball all around the pitch, but he's more capable of dribbling past defenders or playing balls between the lines than we see now. LVG neutered his attacking instincts far too much, but I think Mourinho is asking him to curtail them to serve a valuable role in the team and it's working.
Personally I think his natural progression will eventually lead him to become a successor to Carrick and we'll have to find a replacement for him, but we'll see. Fwiw he played as the holding midfielder at Stamford Bridge in 14/15. We lost the match 1-0, but I thought him and Shaw had standout performances and for Herrera to do it in a role he hadn't played very much before always stuck in my head.
I don't get why you have to be a ball playing centre back to be a complete defender. As someone has said Ferdinand was prone to switching off and lapses in concentration which made him less reliable defensively than Vidic. Again you seem to be getting confused with being complete in a certain position and being a complete footballer in general.
No, I just said I think he is great as well as thinking he is a complete midfielder. There seem to be a few more people agreeing that Herrera is a complete midfielder but like I said, it's people's opinions.
For all of Herrera's deficiencies in physical attributes he does quite well in the defensive aspect of his role which is where you'd expect them to be needed. I thinm his passing does leave a lot to be desired but we know enough of him to expect him to improve on its consistency now that he is more settled in the side. I suspect, though, that his transformation into a conservative passer has more to do with the presence of a more talented creator than he.
In my view a complete midfield player is one that is able to contribute to both attack and defense to an equally high standard. Herrera can do the dual role of a box to box midfielder but often struggles to strike the balance - in his first season his influence was skewed to the attacking aspects of the game whereas this year it is more inclined towards the defensive side. If he had 4 goals added to his defensive stats he'd be a monster of a player.
I don't get what are you talking about here. My definition of being more complete isn't about being who's better or who's good or great. My definition of being more complete is about a player can do more things and Rio is obviously more complete than Vidic because he can do more stuff than Vidic as a defender but being more complete doesn't make him better. Vidic is a better defender and I have said this in United's thread many times.
And I don't know when did you start watching Rio though but he's very good in air when he was at his prime and rarely make mistakes.
Pogba still can do defensive attribute!! I'm not talking about who's better in what aspects but I'm talking about who's more complete.
I don't talk about Herrera is a bad player at all or you need physical attribute to be a good player either. I rate him as a good midfielder. But the poster was talking about him being a complete midfielder and i argued with that since Dembele and Pogba are more complete than him. Please read the posts properly!!!
Last edited:
Do you even read my post? Do you not understand the definition of who's more complete and who's a better defender? Rio is a more complete defender than Vidic but Vidic is a better defender than Rio. You don't have to be a ball playing centre back in order to be complete but I'm using an example of Rio as a "more complete" defender than Vidic because Rio can do defending and also can distribute the ball like a ball playing centre back!!
I'm clearly not getting confused about being complete in certain position and being complete as footballer in general. Being better defender means better in defending aspect, but being more complete as a defender means capable do more things that nowdays defenders need to have as well like great passer, can bring the ball forward from defense with their passing ability and more composed. I'm not asking a defender to be good dribbler or more skillful or scoring goals in order to be complete because we don't need them!!!
You seem confused about the definition of being more complete in certain position with being better in certain position. Ask everyone in the world who is more complete as a centre back Rio or Vidic and they will say Rio even though Vidic is a better defender.
Not really I rarely see anyone here agree that Herrera is more complete than Dembele and Pogba.
Last edited:
6.5-7/10 player, he's component in a lot of areas without being anything special. He doesn't specialise in anything. His position in midfield is the next one we should be looking to upgrade if we want to go up a level as a team.
He's a cracking player, aggressive, good passer and comfortable with taking the ball on the half turn. He sets the tempo and leads the press, he's an important balance between Carrick and Pogba and makes up for each of their deficiencies. It's unbelievable that there are people that don't appreciate him. Just watch the Mkhitaryan goal vs Spurs and it sums up Herrera - wins the ball back in midfield and plays a brilliant ball to put Mikky through on goal. Also, a lot of people criticising his shooting have very short memories! Yes he has been a bit wasteful from long range in the last couple of games but he scored with almost every shot he had in his first season.
I read them and thought I understood them but you seem to have a level of thought on this "complete" definition that is outside of the scope of my limited mind.
Please help me understand. So Vidic isn't a complete defender because he lacks pace and the ability to be a ball playing centre back? He still has the ability to run and pass the ball though? Wouldn't you then say that Rio is just better than him in those 2 aspects of the role?
Now on the other hand Vidic was better than Rio in the air and his anticipation was better. He also made less mistakes and organised the defence better evidenced by players like Jonny Evans looking better next to Vidic than Rio.
So, this is the part I cannot grasp. Rio was better than Vidic at some aspects of the role, Vidic was better than Rio at others. What makes Rio a more complete defender than Vidic?
If you said that Rio was a more complete "footballer" than Vidic I would agree with you. Rio had a spell playing in midfield which Vidic could never do. But as a complete "defender" it has to be Vidic because what he was better at than Rio was more relevant to the role.
As for Herrera/Pogba/Dembele, I would say Herrera is the most "complete" midfielder of the 3 because he can play to a high level in multiple roles in midfield. Look at the Griezmann thread for "Pogba and Griezmann can't play in the same team" debate. You will not find one of those about Herrera.
Like I said before, being more complete as a defender means player can do more stuff than he other player as a defender. It's not about who's better defender. Defender's primary duty is about defending but a defender task can also be both defending and be a ball playing centre back. Rio can do both as a centre back and ball playing centre back while Vidic can only do what centre back does.
Like I already mentioned above, being more complete and being better is two different things. Player is called more complete because he can do more stuff in defender aspect. I'm not asking a defender to be able to do skill or dribble. But as a defender it's also important to know how to stay composed, bring the ball forward with their passing and Rio has these ability. And I'm not saying that just because you are a ball playing centre back means you are more complete. I'll take an example of one of ball playing centre back who isn't a complete defender.
Vidic is a more complete centre back than Stones who is ball playing centre back because stones can't defend!! He can only distributed the ball. But Rio is more complete than both of them because he can do what Vidic does and also what Stones does. If we only count what Vidic does, Vidic is obviously a better centre back in defending but not as complete as Rio as a centre back.
Dembele has pretty much played as a no 6, no 8, no 10 in his career. I don't know what are you talking about. Even Pogba did play as a no 6 with France national team in Euro. If you called Pogba isn't good enough as a no 6, I'm sorry but Herrera isn't that good for high level either as no 6. We all know even 35 years old Carrick is still a better no 6 than Herrera.
Ok, I admit defeat. My ability to comprehend your definition of "complete" has failed. Just one last question. You say Rio is more complete as a centre back than Vidic because he can match Vidic defensively but also has pace and can be a ball player. How does that make Vidic a better centre back than Rio?
We all don't. Herrera has been brilliant this season and most of his best performances have come as the deepest midfield player. He was outstanding in that role and replacing Fellaini with him in that position was a huge reason for the turnaround in performance levels earlier in the season. The fact Carrick can come in and he can slide so effortlessly into another role shows how complete his game is.
I've never seen Dembele play as the deepest midfield player. When did he play there? Pogba struggles with the defensive responsibilities of playing as an 8 let alone a 6.
Nice post. Might be a figment of my imagination but I recall once it was reported by Herrera(?) that LVG told him to take a touch before shooting.
I think you still don't get it, you are still confused about being more complete or being better. Rio can do what Vidic does but doesn't make Rio does better in term of quality. Vidic's tackle, header, and all his defending attributes are better quality than Rio. It's like saying Blind can pass the ball just like Carrick but Carrick's passing is better in term of quality. Remember quality and quantity are different. Rio might have the quantity as a centre back which makes him more complete centre back but Vidic has the quality which makes him better centre back.
Most his best performance doesn't come as no 6 but as a no 8. I'm very surprised if you don't know or can't admit that 35 years old Carrick is still a better no 6 than Herrera.
I have seen Dembele played and even followed him since AZ Alkmaar when he used to play as a striker. He was converted as no 10 and no 8 and sometimes as no 6 at Fulham. He is playing as a no 8 with Spurs in 2 deeper midfield of 4231 formation compared to 433 or 4141 formation.
Pogba played as a no 6 against Germany and Portugal in Euro. Please don't tell me they are not high level teams and high level competition. Clearly Dembele, Pogba, and Herrera have played as a no 6 in high level but none of them are best in that role. Thry can play but not considered to be top level of no 6. There is a reason why we are still relying on 35 years old Carrick. If Herrera can compete in high level as no 6 then we wouldn't need to play Carrick anymore this season.
If Hererra were any more expansive, he'd be straying into the same territory as Pogba. We've already seen how the latter wanes when teammates tread on his toes in the French national team. As it is, Herrera does everything he needs to do, and he does it impeccably well.
If he did more, it wouldn't actually add a lot to the team. Carrick and Pogba only need him to plug gaps, make himself available for passes and keep the ball moving. The fact he does all of that with tireless energy, great technique and good creativity means there isn't any player out there who'd be a significant upgrade. As a cog in the midfield machine, he's as good as it gets.
If he did more, it wouldn't actually add a lot to the team. Carrick and Pogba only need him to plug gaps, make himself available for passes and keep the ball moving. The fact he does all of that with tireless energy, great technique and good creativity means there isn't any player out there who'd be a significant upgrade. As a cog in the midfield machine, he's as good as it gets.
Herrera played as the 6 just 3 games ago. His second last game for United was in that position. He has played far more in that position this season than on the right of the 3 and was absolutely outstanding in that role at Anfield.
He moved position in midfield because a 3 of Herrera, Carrick and Pogba is better than a 3 of Fellaini, Herrera and Pogba and it provides better balance in midfield and to the team in general.
fwiw i think hererra is complete despite his lack of physicality, which is overstated imo.
Fellaini will use his physicality to win the ball back - he'll push players out of the way and he has the strength to make it pretty easy
but hererra just takes the ball - its 2 means to the same end, we get the ball back
I think a complete midfielder needs to be hard to get past and hardworking when you dont have the ball.
They should almost be ever present and always relevant (as an option for a pass that isn't used if nothing else)
The should be able to dictate play and to be able to change the tempo or pace of the game when you do have the ball.
Being able to move the ball forward fast so the attacking players have a bit of space and don't have the other teams midfield parked right on top of them is important
Chipping in with a few goals and asists helps ... but probably isn't necessary.
I'd consider it more a bonus like being able to dribble or play a scholes style 40 yard pass or being tall or being a good set piece taker.
Part of it would be knowing and understanding their role relative to the guys next to them I guess. Or maybe most of it
Consistency is important too - if they dont bother tracking the odd run its always going to bite you in the ass sooner or later.
Hererra ticks all the boxes for me
Fellaini will use his physicality to win the ball back - he'll push players out of the way and he has the strength to make it pretty easy
but hererra just takes the ball - its 2 means to the same end, we get the ball back
I think a complete midfielder needs to be hard to get past and hardworking when you dont have the ball.
They should almost be ever present and always relevant (as an option for a pass that isn't used if nothing else)
The should be able to dictate play and to be able to change the tempo or pace of the game when you do have the ball.
Being able to move the ball forward fast so the attacking players have a bit of space and don't have the other teams midfield parked right on top of them is important
Chipping in with a few goals and asists helps ... but probably isn't necessary.
I'd consider it more a bonus like being able to dribble or play a scholes style 40 yard pass or being tall or being a good set piece taker.
Part of it would be knowing and understanding their role relative to the guys next to them I guess. Or maybe most of it
Consistency is important too - if they dont bother tracking the odd run its always going to bite you in the ass sooner or later.
Hererra ticks all the boxes for me
You don't seem to read my post properly.
I never say Herrera never played as a no 6 or barely played as a no 6 this season. I said his most best games comes from as a no 8. It's true he had a great game against Liverpool as a number 6 but I can only recalled that performance and the Bournemouth ones. Playing good in a few games as a no 6 means not much different with what Pogba did in Euro, Pogba was very good as a no 6 against Germany though, and then against Portugal he wasn't effective but he wasn't poor either.
Even the one against Middleborough Herrera wasn't good at all and everyone said "we missed Carrick" "he does barely decent job as a no 6" he can't play deep like Carrick", check out his performance thread and even I watched the game and I agree. Some of the games in Europa league I remember he was caught off with his positioning since he stays too much on the right side which gave a massive gaps on the left side. Sorry mate, I'm not saying he can't but this season he wasn't as good as what you said as a no 6, neither consistent as well. His best is definitely a no 8.
I amazed how someone is actually still trying to compare the quality of what Carrick offers as a no 6 with Herrera as a no 6.
I agree with this. Herrera complements Carrick's lack of pace and movement and Pogba's tendency to charge up. He helps wins the ball back and provides an option for possession recycling.
Who would you replace him with? He is a pretty good all rounded midfielder with great reading of play and quite good passing.
Yes. And after that he scored 2 goals in one game - one after taking additional touch (and LVG hugged him), and another one with the first touch iitc
Pretty sure that was Lingard
Edit: Nope seems you were right
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...Herrera-pleased-goal-against-Aston-Villa.html
You know what I think. He listens and thinks United is the one team he always wanted to play for. So when he's told so this he goes out and does it as best as he can. That why even from TV I love him.
You can't help loving a guy that is playing for the fans. That's the guy you get out your seat and say go on lad!!
You can't help loving a guy that is playing for the fans. That's the guy you get out your seat and say go on lad!!
Ok, so what were Herrera's good games as an 8 and poor games as a 6 this season?
I think our fans are doing that thing were they overrate a player who is playing well. We can do better than Herrera in midfield. In fact we need to if we want to be a top side. He won't get into any of Europe's best sides for good reason. He's a solid player he just doesn't do anything very well that makes him really stand out as a midfielder. No weaknesses but no real strengths either.
Why do I need to tell you all of these. It's not like I'm willing to check out them again from the Bournemouth game to West ham game when we have played many games this season. Can't be bothered, if you really watch him you should know by yourself that he wasn't performing as good as Carrick in no 6 role and when he did in Middleborough game that you mentioned he wasn't even good enough as a no 6.
Not following your convo that much, so what I say may be out of context/missed the point completely lol but don't forget that when Carrick plays in a 6, he will have Herrera in front of him. Who's in front of Herrera when he's the 6? Usually Pogba, then Mata or Rooney, all who don't offer the same kind of protection and link up play Herrera offers Carrick.
I think it's an excuse.
Carrick did ever play with Pogba as his no 8 against Feyenoord, that's definetly less protection as well and we won 4-0 with a clean sheet. This is Carrick a 35 years old who has lost his prime. A player like Carrick at his prime has been proven to be able to play as a no 6 in a "high level expectation" with worse partner than what Herrera is having right now like Anderson, Cleverley, 38 years old Giggs, Jones. I'm not saying Herrera can't play in there, but at the moment as no 6 he's definitely not in the same level of Carrick who has proven to be able to fullfil the high level performance and expectation.
He brings bite to the midfield, decent passer, decent dribbler, taste for the occasional throughball, dynamic, hard worker, vocal, seems to really like big games.
Good player, not world-class. Difficult to find a player better than him who is also available.
Good player, not world-class. Difficult to find a player better than him who is also available.