What South Asians need to do to break into the Professional Game...

[Raees]

Spoke to Imrul Gazi, the manager of Sporting Bengal - the leading team in Non-League football in terms of 'South Asian' representatives. He also recently appeared in Micah Richard's documentary on racism. He went into depth on his own career as a player and the challenges he faced, whilst comparing it to the current challenges faced by the modern player trying to break through the system. It seems as though, whilst there has been some progress made - it is not going to be enough for us to see a flood of South Asian's make it into professional football.

Key messages to take away from it...

• Education/getting a professional job/family business comes first is a major factor which affects young South Asian footballers. Football is seen as too risky a career, and there is a snobbish attitude to not making it into the EPL... anything less is seen as a failure
• Therefore the lack of representation of South Asian's in lower league football is the bigger problem, as if they are unwilling to compete here - less likely to get scouted and funnel their way upwards into the higher divisions.
• Diet - remains a taboo subject still. It is getting better, as young Asian's are more likely to become independent and eat healthily once they are into their teens but there is a real 'foodie' culture, where there is a lot of pressure to eat what is unsuitable food for pro athletes and dedication to diet is frowned upon in many family environments - thus as a youngster, a lot of asian's have zero guidance or ability to request a healthier diet and that has long term impacts on their overall athleticism. By the time they grab control of their diet, the damage is done.
• Ties in with point 1, but the sheer amount of commitment needed to make it professional is a turn off for many families as it will undoubtedly impact the child's education. Midweek games, driving here and there to take kids to training/away games. Many asian's lack that family support to undertake this commitment and thus they end up either walking away from the game or pushed out of academies.
• There is an element of institutional racism, but the big takeway is that if we see the amount of Afro-Carribean's in the modern game, the proof is there that despite racism, if you are good enough and willing enough, the pathway is there... but a genuine commitment to making it professional has to be there, and it needs to be a mass scale movement, so that out of 1000's (all with excellent commitment/diet etc) then you'll get the best make it through. Simply not enough even getting into the first steps on the pro pyramid.

Keen to hear your thoughts.

 

[Oranges038]

Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.

 

[RUCK4444]

On point one, that’s not really a bad thing. I mean it is a very risky career.

You wouldn’t really want to change that advice imo.

 

[Raees]

Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.

This is a good point but many top footballers of the past barely touch 6 ft and the best player of the previous decade is a shortie... so it can't be the only reason. Also 'Arabs' and 'Koreans' aren't that blessed with height, yet are able to break through. Now in my experience at school, the Arab's were more quicker/better stamina... so I think their diet over the years is definitely better than the south asian diet.

 

[R0nald0]

Is there an issue here?

the story is - not many south Asians are in professional football as they lack the ambition/dedication/commitment needed to!

It is not a bad thing to prioritise other things such as education but if parents and/or children aren't prepared to put the time in to training and diet to get to the very top, what do they want, an easier pass there?

Pollitical correctness gone mad!

 

[africanspur]

Is there an issue here?

the story is - not many south Asians are in professional football as they lack the ambition/dedication/commitment needed to!

It is not a bad thing to prioritise other things such as education but if parents and/or children aren't prepared to put the time in to training and diet to get to the very top, what do they want, an easier pass there?

Pollitical correctness gone mad!

What? Who has suggested that? And what does this have to do with PC?

The discussion is what are the factors which might stop our biggest ethnic minority in this country from participating in what is essentially the national sport of this country.

Not just because its right for them but also from a selfish point of view, to increase the potential pool of players in our league and national team.

 

[Fully Fledged]

[

Is there an issue here?

the story is - not many south Asians are in professional football as they lack the ambition/dedication/commitment needed to!

It is not a bad thing to prioritise other things such as education but if parents and/or children aren't prepared to put the time in to training and diet to get to the very top, what do they want, an easier pass there?

Pollitical correctness gone mad!

There is an element of institutional racism, but the big takeway is that if we see the amount of Afro-Carribean's in the modern game, the proof is there that despite racism, if you are good enough and willing enough, the pathway is there..

Read the OP before commenting.

 

[Boavista]

Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.

Professional athletes are by definition not average people, so I never liked this argument that gets brought up every time topics like this are discussed. South Asians on average are shorter than most regions, but the average is hardly that important. Even if you pretend that height is absolutely crucial for football, you argue as if there aren't millions of taller people on the subcontinent. Spain, Portugal, Italy and practically all of South America are significantly shorter than the rest of Europe yet produce fantastic footballers. Some of these countries probably have smaller populations than India has teenaged boys taller than 180cm.

 

[Oranges038]

Professional athletes are by definition not average people, so I never liked this argument that gets brought up every time topics like this are discussed. South Asians on average are shorter than most regions, but the average is hardly that important. Even if you pretend that height is absolutely crucial for football, you argue as if there aren't millions of taller people on the subcontinent. Spain, Portugal, Italy and practically all of South America are significantly shorter than the rest of Europe yet produce fantastic footballers. Some of these countries probably have smaller populations than India has teenaged boys taller than 180cm.

The op specifically mentions South Asia, I merely pointed out that a lot of it now is about physicality and height, it is a very determining factor in modern football. Smaller skilful players like are the exception now. Footballers are more about physicality and athletic ability in the last number of years.

 

[MonkeysMagic]

Does anyone have a clue about what political correctness actually means?

Before making idiotic comments, read the OP and take in what's bein implied!

I def sit in the camp that talent (at an early age) is there but is usually not harnessed due to point 1 mostly. But its true to say also that when physical development is at its peak, inappropriate diet will have a significant impact and due to point 1, late developers really don't stand a chance against their compatriots.

 

[Boavista]

The op specifically mentions South Asia, I merely pointed out that a lot of it now is about physicality and height, it is a very determining factor in modern football. Smaller skilful players like are the exception now. Footballers are more about physicality and athletic ability in the last number of years.

There's definitely more emphasis on physicality these days, and height is part of that but not a huge part. Take that brilliant Chile side from a few years ago as an example, extremely physical, yet the tallest player in their match against Brazil in 2014 was Vidal at 1.80m.

Besides, it's not like South Asia has produced anyone notable before the trend to more athletic football. I just don't think height is the reason we don't see more South Asians in professional football. If height were the main reason, it's likely we'd see more South Asians anyway because there's enough tall people there too.

 

[WeePat]

This is only anecdotal but maybe there is something to it, especially for those in my generation and older. When I was a teenager, I had a mate who was seriously good. I always thought I was pretty decent but this lad was always the best player on the pitch wherever we played. One day, during the summer holidays, after a local tournament we played in, he and his older brother were approached by Leicester City of all teams and he was offered a trial. We were all ecstatic for him but when I saw him at school a few weeks later, he told us he never went for that trial because when he and his brother went home to their parents with this, they weren't interested in letting him do it because, among other reasons, they didn't look at football as a seriously viable path in life, it was something you did with your mates in the park. So he didn't go. I think he ended up going for a trial at a different club when he was 18 but nothing came of that.

I've told this story a couple of times to Asian mates over the years and it's a similar response every time - in their community you're expected to be very studious and pursue the more traditional careers. As I said, only anecdotal but it does, to me at least, offer up one of the reasons Asians are so underrepresented in football.

Cracking interview btw. Keep them coming mate.

 

[dal]

Football is deeply racist at most levels and will be for at least another 50 years or longer without the right education.

 

[Oranges038]

There's definitely more emphasis on physicality these days, and height is part of that but not a huge part. Take that brilliant Chile side from a few years ago as an example, extremely physical, yet the tallest player in their match against Brazil in 2014 was Vidal at 1.80m.

Besides, it's not like South Asia has produced anyone notable before the trend to more athletic football. I just don't think height is the reason we don't see more South Asians in professional football. If height were the main reason, it's likely we'd see more South Asians anyway because there's enough tall people there too.

One small team did well in one tournament 7 years ago, that's your best example.

How well do South American or South Asian countries fair in all the other sports at the Olympics? Who dominates the majority of these sports?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I'm a goalie and played for a junior football team, but I got sick of the racism and switched to hockey instead, played for 15 years at national league clubs. I'm not saying I was good enough to become a professional footballer, but I was pushed out.

I'm 6'5" and most of the men in my family are 6 foot plus. I've been hearing for years the excuse that our "physicality" is the problem. I'm sorry, but that is bollocks

 

[Raredaredevil]

This is only anecdotal but maybe there is something to it, especially for those in my generation and older. When I was a teenager, I had a mate who was seriously good. I always thought I was pretty decent but this lad was always the best player on the pitch wherever we played. One day, during the summer holidays, after a local tournament we played in, he and his older brother were approached by Leicester City of all teams and he was offered a trial. We were all ecstatic for him but when I saw him at school a few weeks later, he told us he never went for that trial because when he and his brother went home to their parents with this, they weren't interested in letting him do it because, among other reasons, they didn't look at football as a seriously viable path in life, it was something you did with your mates in the park. So he didn't go. I think he ended up going for a trial at a different club when he was 18 but nothing came of that.

I've told this story a couple of times to Asian mates over the years and it's a similar response every time - in their community you're expected to be very studious and pursue the more traditional careers. As I said, only anecdotal but it does, to me at least, offer up one of the reasons Asians are so underrepresented in football.

Cracking interview btw. Keep them coming mate.

May I know what country is he from? I have a feeling we both know the same person.

 

[cj_sparky]

I remember the BBC followed Punjab United FC for a season which was a good watch.

A brief part of it highlighted the Chairman/Manager's own father questioning the time/passion he had for the football club and wanted him to fully focus on their own business. The son then taking him to see the football club's ground, what his son was achieving the father's opinion changed and it made him immensely proud of what his son was doing.

They played in the FA Cup Qualifiers for the first time in 2019.

 

[Lay]

I know a story of a Pakistani mate of mine who had a trial at a non league club but was told they weren’t sure how the crowds would react to an Asian player so were wary of bad publicity. They told him to stick around but he thought feck that.

He later had a trial at a championship club/league 1 but had a hairline fracture injury on the first day and decided to just go into the family business. Right up there with some of the best players I’ve played with

This was about 15 years ago or so.

I think family is one of the main reasons, my cousin probably could have been a lower league player but was told he was the next in line to run the family business, so he gave up on playing football.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Spoke to Imrul Gazi, the manager of Sporting Bengal - the leading team in Non-League football in terms of 'South Asian' representatives. He also recently appeared in Micah Richard's documentary on racism. He went into depth on his own career as a player and the challenges he faced, whilst comparing it to the current challenges faced by the modern player trying to break through the system. It seems as though, whilst there has been some progress made - it is not going to be enough for us to see a flood of South Asian's make it into professional football.

Key messages to take away from it...

• Education/getting a professional job/family business comes first is a major factor which affects young South Asian footballers. Football is seen as too risky a career, and there is a snobbish attitude to not making it into the EPL... anything less is seen as a failure
• Therefore the lack of representation of South Asian's in lower league football is the bigger problem, as if they are unwilling to compete here - less likely to get scouted and funnel their way upwards into the higher divisions.
• Diet - remains a taboo subject still. It is getting better, as young Asian's are more likely to become independent and eat healthily once they are into their teens but there is a real 'foodie' culture, where there is a lot of pressure to eat what is unsuitable food for pro athletes and dedication to diet is frowned upon in many family environments - thus as a youngster, a lot of asian's have zero guidance or ability to request a healthier diet and that has long term impacts on their overall athleticism. By the time they grab control of their diet, the damage is done.
• Ties in with point 1, but the sheer amount of commitment needed to make it professional is a turn off for many families as it will undoubtedly impact the child's education. Midweek games, driving here and there to take kids to training/away games. Many asian's lack that family support to undertake this commitment and thus they end up either walking away from the game or pushed out of academies.
• There is an element of institutional racism, but the big takeway is that if we see the amount of Afro-Carribean's in the modern game, the proof is there that despite racism, if you are good enough and willing enough, the pathway is there... but a genuine commitment to making it professional has to be there, and it needs to be a mass scale movement, so that out of 1000's (all with excellent commitment/diet etc) then you'll get the best make it through. Simply not enough even getting into the first steps on the pro pyramid.

Keen to hear your thoughts.

Interesting points. Not sure about point one: This attitude exists very strongly in African immigrant communities as well (education/professions > sport and entertainment) yet there are lots of players of African descent playing in the top divisions.

Also, why hasn’t this supposed cultural prejudice stopped South Asian people from breaking through into top level professional cricket in the UK?

I think the most likely explanation for the dearth of Asians in football is still racism and stereotypes about size and strength etc. I mean, black players still struggle to become coaches and managers, so it’s not like the system is a perfect meritocracy (which people often like to pretend sport is).

 

[Boavista]

One small team did well in one tournament 7 years ago, that's your best example.

How well do South American or South Asian countries fair in all the other sports at the Olympics? Who dominates the majority of these sports?

It's hardly the only example of good football teams with short players. It's one of the more extreme examples of a team I could think of with not a single tall player, to show that it's not a necessity. And again, South Asians can be tall too, so it's not even the main point. You said:

unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

as if there aren't many millions of tall South Asians. And just because I only gave you one example doesn't mean the argument is invalid. Not every argument needs hundreds of examples, especially when your argument is essentially "unless you have tall people and can turn them into good footballers then you won't have South Asians in the professional game". But I'm sure you can think of other examples anyway. How about Argentina in 2018? Only players above 180 are their centre backs.

We're not talking about the Olympics. It should be pretty self explanatory why athletics is the most important factor in a predominantly athletic sports tournament. What's the correlation between doing well at the Olympics and doing well in football? The US and China aren't exactly known for their football players. Japan does pretty well at the Olympics, despite not being very tall on average. They also produce some pretty decent football players.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Therefore the lack of representation of South Asian's in lower league football is the bigger problem, as if they are unwilling to compete here - less likely to get scouted and funnel their way upwards into the higher divisions.

Intuitively, I'd say this is the key factor.

If the mindset is: "Yeah, football is a good career if and only if you make it as a PL player", then you have a problem. Because statistically, it's extremely unlikely that any youth player (even if they're reasonably talented and/or hard working) will ever make it at that level.

You need a steady inflow of players on a lower (professional) level before you can expect a change at the top level.

Very interesting, though - kudos on your work here. I enjoyed the thing you did with the former Liverpool guy too (forgot to mention it in the relevant thread - but brilliant stuff, mate).

 

[T00lsh3d]

Too busy chasing those IT careers - Greg Clarke

 

[Desert Eagle]

One small team did well in one tournament 7 years ago, that's your best example.

How well do South American or South Asian countries fair in all the other sports at the Olympics? Who dominates the majority of these sports?

America, China and Russia. Average height 1.77m, 1.75m, 1.76m

More correlated to money and investment (large scale doping) than anything else .

 

[Oranges038]

It's hardly the only example of good football teams with short players. It's one of the more extreme examples of a team I could think of with not a single tall player, to show that it's not a necessity. And again, South Asians can be tall too, so it's not even the main point. You said:

as if there aren't many millions of tall South Asians. And just because I only gave you one example doesn't mean the argument is invalid. Not every argument needs hundreds of examples, especially when your argument is essentially "unless you have tall people and can turn them into good footballers then you won't have South Asians in the professional game". But I'm sure you can think of other examples anyway. How about Argentina in 2018? Only players above 180 are their centre backs.

We're not talking about the Olympics. It should be pretty self explanatory why athletics is the most important factor in a predominantly athletic sports tournament. What's the correlation between doing well at the Olympics and doing well in football? The US and China aren't exactly known for their football players. Japan does pretty well at the Olympics, despite not being very tall on average. They also produce some pretty decent football players.

My reply to the Op is simple. Physicality is a major factor in football Europe and England and it is becoming increasingly dominated by bigger athletes, then those people who are smaller are immediately at a disadvantage. It really is quite simple.

The height average was taken, so it is a fair point, when the average height is at the opposite end of ths scale to what is now required to be at the top end of the game for most players.

 

[Dumbstar]

Nothing here I haven't been hearing or reading for the past 30 years. If I'm still alive for the next 30 I expect this very same conversation.

Bottom line is no one is interested about promoting South Asian football and footballers. Either scouts or western based South Asians themselves. No one cares enough to break the cycle.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The average height of males defined as "African American" in the USA is lower than that of males defined as "Caucasian" and only slightly higher than males defined as "Asian Americans".

But somewhere close to 75% of all players in the NBA (where height is generally considered very important for most positions) are "African American" (defined as such by relevant sources).

Average height for a specific group of people, defined by whatever standards, means feck all.

So-called "race" or "ethnicity" usually means feck all in most contexts.

More correlated to money and investment (large scale doping) than anything else .

...is the right answer.

Anyway, the point of the NBA example would be this:

According to a certain logic, the massive over-representation of a certain "ethnic" group in the NBA should be down to the fact that this group is significantly taller than any other group (height being generally very important in basketball).

But it ain't the case. The group in question ain't significantly taller on average compared to other groups.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Also @Raees - 'cause I'm a bit of a cnut, change the title: Asians not Asian's.

 

[paraguayo]

Don't these countries focus on many other sports first?

I think the only underachiever is Indonesia which has football as one of most popular sport and has world's 4th biggest population.

 

[11101]

I used to play football with a guy who after he retired went to coach in the Indian Super League. According to him there are too many 'playstation players', players who grew up watching Ronaldo do stepovers and thought that was how the game is supposed to be played, without getting a fundamental understanding of the game first. I suppose that comes down to it not being a big sport for young kids during the key years where you learn the basics.

 

[The Mitcher]

They mostly go into cricket or non-sport careers. It's not racism. Their families will want them to go and get real jobs like in the STEM fields (which is why in America especially, they are a big percentage of the work force) or become lawyers and doctors. If they do go into sports, it will be cricket, because it's insanely popular in South Asia. I grew up with a lot of Indians and Pakistani's (also in my teens me and my friends played against a group of Arab boys we became friends with every week). Phisque was not an issue, a lot of them were incredibly pacy and quite well built. I was no slowpoke but even I struggled to keep up. I think it's mostly down to cultural and individual decisions nowadays. There is no institutional barriers that anyone can point to in the England Cricket squad or even in some of the clubs like Leicester and Liverpool who have had players of indian descent. But most of them have been mixed race, which is probably why they are more likely to pick football because they aren't entirely in another culture but in both.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.

What utter crap

 

[crossy1686]

Coaching at most levels I would imagine?

It's the same reason there's hardly any American's at an elite level. Their youth coaching is great, in fact at youth international tournaments they tend to do quite well and even win a few, but once they get to an over 16's age group the level of coaching drops off massively so it's move to Europe time or stay in America and never realise your true potential.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

They mostly go into cricket or non-sport careers. It's not racism. Their families will want them to go and get real jobs like in the STEM fields (which is why in America especially, they are a big percentage of the work force) or become lawyers and doctors. If they do go into sports, it will be cricket, because it's insanely popular in South Asia. I grew up with a lot of Indians and Pakistani's (also in my teens me and my friends played against a group of Arab boys we became friends with every week). Phisque was not an issue, a lot of them were incredibly pacy and quite well built. I was no slowpoke but even I struggled to keep up. I think it's mostly down to cultural and individual decisions nowadays. There is no institutional barriers that anyone can point to in the England Cricket squad or even in some of the clubs like Leicester and Liverpool who have had players of indian descent. But most of them have been mixed race, which is probably why they are more likely to pick football because they aren't entirely in another culture but in both.

Mate, there are Asian artists, musicians, poets, authors, builders, plumbers, silicon valley entrepreneurs, basically any job you can think of, not every Asian goes into STEM subjects or pushed that way. It's a bit of a stereotype saying that they do.

When you have South Asians saying that, yes, there is racism in football, that they've experienced it, maybe listen.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Coaching at most levels I would imagine?

It's the same reason there's hardly any American's at an elite level. Their youth coaching is great, in fact at youth international tournaments they tend to do quite well and even win a few, but once they get to an over 16's age group the level of coaching drops off massively so it's move to Europe time or stay in America and never realise your true potential.

Thought it was because their best athletes opt for American sports more than anything.

 

[Oranges038]

What utter crap

Yeah, I should have said it's all racism.....Because everything where all people aren't equally represented boils down to this.

You may as well ask why women aren't more represented and say its all about sexism and a lack of role models to look up to.

 

[RedTiger]

@Raees it's a very good interview mate. Looking forward to the other videos in the series.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Yeah, I should have said it's all racism.....Because everything where all people aren't equally represented boils down to this.

You may as well ask why women aren't more represented and say its all about sexism and a lack of role models to look up to.

Carry on mate. This is comedy gold

 

[Oranges038]

Carry on mate. This is comedy gold

Yes, yes it is. Top notch stuff.

 

[ariveded]

It's due to the lack of ethnic (footballing) role models. People of all races are influenced, and often "copy" from their social circles. There is nothing of such sorts for South Asians in football. There is for cricket, and more footballers have to reach out to South Asian communities specifically. Share their stories, their journey, their joys, and build the passion from grassroots.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Mate, there are Asian artists, musicians, poets, authors, builders, plumbers, silicon valley entrepreneurs, basically any job you can think of, not every Asian goes into STEM subjects or pushed that way. It's a bit of a stereotype saying that they do.

When you have South Asians saying that, yes, there is racism in football, that they've experienced it, maybe listen.

This. So much this. It’s so funny people saying ‘oh their parents want them to be doctors, that’s why’. What the hell happened to Naughty Boy and Steel Banglez’s parents then?! Were Jay Sean and Nitin Sawhney orphans? Was Paul Chowdhry adopted by a white family?! (he wasn’t, for those who are confused). I guess sometimes Asian people can end up doing stuff other than STEM and medicine. Who’d have thought.

Cultural and community pressures regarding entry into ‘solid professions’ (which definitely exist) don’t explain the almost complete absence of South Asians from higher level football.

Asian people (like any other people) are not a uniform monolith. I’m sure there are thousands and thousands of them across the country who fervently dream of being professional footballers. However, there appears to be some kind of barrier stopping them from getting there, and I’m pretty sure that this barrier is not ‘their parents’. Or else there wouldn’t be any Asian people doing anything in the ‘uncertain’ worlds of sport, the arts and entertainment. And there are many.