What to do about Online Racist Abuse?

RUCK4444

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Its simple, only allow people who are ID verified to respond to posts by verified accounts.
This. Your online ID should be directly linked to your real ID.

That way if some cretin posts racist abuse then they get arrested and are accountable for their actions just like they would be on the street.

In no world should you be able to break the law under the guise of anonymity.
 

Ramshock

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This. Your online ID should be directly linked to your real ID.

That way if some cretin posts racist abuse then they get arrested and are accountable for their actions just like they would be on the street.

In no world should you be able to break the law under the guise of anonymity.
Yeah but only if you want to tweet to a verified account, for those who value anonymity
 

alquemyst

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The government should step in and barge over these social media sites.
You either force real user identification as a social media platform or you're out. Thing is, the government gets a lot of data from media platforms and most likely won't do jack shit to jeopardize that.
 

Borys

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The issue with online is the anonymity. It makes people feel people much invincible and gives them a platform to say things they'd never dream of doing in person or without the safety net anonymity provides.

Logically the only thing you can do to is reduce this element. Identification, age restrictions and personal detail verification. If you want to use Twitter/Insta provide them, have them verified, and agree they can be shared freely with law enforcement if your account is used in illegal activities.
Its simple, only allow people who are ID verified to respond to posts by verified accounts.
This. Your online ID should be directly linked to your real ID.

That way if some cretin posts racist abuse then they get arrested and are accountable for their actions just like they would be on the street.

In no world should you be able to break the law under the guise of anonymity.
Simple?
Arrests?

You reduce privacy world wide for the promise of persecuting abusers in some specific countries. I can assure you, outside of UK, USA and maybe a few other regions the law enforcement won't move a finger to fight online racism (not because they don't care, but because there are bigger local problems). If you think it's worth it for those countries alone, read this post. Not to mention you risk lynchment of individuals.

People need to stop repeating the same things over and over again. ID verification is not the solution, and the cons overwhelme the pros. Also, it'd require cooperation between countries, and big tech companies risking losing many users. Which is not happening.
 

TheReligion

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Simple?
Arrests?

You reduce privacy world wide for the promise of persecuting abusers in some specific countries. I can assure you, outside of UK, USA and maybe a few other regions the law enforcement won't move a finger to fight online racism (not because they don't care, but because there are bigger local problems). If you think it's worth it for those countries alone, read this post. Not to mention you risk lynchment of individuals.

People need to stop repeating the same things over and over again. ID verification is not the solution, and the cons overwhelme the pros. Also, it'd require cooperation between countries, and big tech companies risking losing many users. Which is not happening.
Sorry I don't see why is not a solution or part of one?
 

Ramshock

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Simple?
Arrests?

You reduce privacy world wide for the promise of persecuting abusers in some specific countries. I can assure you, outside of UK, USA and maybe a few other regions the law enforcement won't move a finger to fight online racism (not because they don't care, but because there are bigger local problems). If you think it's worth it for those countries alone, read this post. Not to mention you risk lynchment of individuals.

People need to stop repeating the same things over and over again. ID verification is not the solution, and the cons overwhelme the pros. Also, it'd require cooperation between countries, and big tech companies risking losing many users. Which is not happening.
Why are you conflating the two posts? I said nothing about arrests. If you as a verified twitter account holder want the protection of only being tweeted to by people with verified IDs then you should have that privilege if you want it. That way if people want to remain using the platform anonymously they can do so, but if they want to interact with a verified account that chooses this setting then they have to be ID verified. I cannot see any other way to do it except for the abused account owners leaving twitter.
 

hobbers

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Why are you conflating the two posts? I said nothing about arrests. If you as a verified twitter account holder want the protection of only being tweeted to by people with verified IDs then you should have that privilege if you want it. That way if people want to remain using the platform anonymously they can do so, but if they want to interact with a verified account that chooses this setting then they have to be verified. I cannot see any other way to do it except for the attacked accounts leaving twitter.
Does that not massively discriminate against most of the world though?

Essentially you're creating a two-tier system where users in the west can make verified accounts and interact with celebs (why the feck they would want to is another matter) and most of the rest of the world can't properly verify themselves and so are excluded.
 

Ramshock

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Does that not massively discriminate against most of the world though?

Essentially you're creating a two-tier system where users in the west can make verified accounts and interact with celebs (why the feck they would want to is another matter) and most of the rest of the world can't properly verify themselves and so are excluded.
Why can they not properly verify themselves? Most or if not all twitter users have access to a phone right?

Also how else do you control it? I dont see you put forward any suggestion which suggests you are okay with people being
abused.,
 

Borys

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Sorry I don't see why is not a solution or part of one?
I explained why I don't see this working, not sure what is not clear.
What do you think will happen if social media account has an ID, and how is it a solution?

Why are you conflating the two posts? I said nothing about arrests. If you as a verified twitter account holder want the protection of only being tweeted to by people with verified IDs then you should have that privilege if you want it. That way if people want to remain using the platform anonymously they can do so, but if they want to interact with a verified account that chooses this setting then they have to be ID verified. I cannot see any other way to do it except for the abused account owners leaving twitter.
That sounds sensible to me, but I don't see how it solves the problem as probably most racist posts are not direct interaction. Those posts might be less visible but they can still talk shite using other hashtags for wider range right?
 

JohnZSmith27

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Why can they not properly verify themselves? Most or if not all twitter users have access to a phone right?

Also how else do you control it? I dont see you put forward any suggestion which suggests you are okay with people being
abused.,
That is extremely unfair. Not having the ultimate answer on how to handle the issue is not the same as him being OK with abuse.
 

Ramshock

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I explained why I don't see this working, not sure what is not clear.
What do you think will happen if social media account has an ID, and how is it a solution?


That sounds sensible to me, but I don't see how it solves the problem as probably most racist posts are not direct interaction. Those posts might be less visible but they can still talk shite using other hashtags for wider range right?
That would be up to twitter, if there is no direct contact with the account then that is something. I saw posters directly attacking the three lads.
 

hobbers

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Why can they not properly verify themselves? Most or if not all twitter users have access to a phone right?

Also how else do you control it? I dont see you put forward any suggestion which suggests you are okay with people being
abused.,
The majority of the world cannot magic up ID that would do an acceptable job of identifying them. Having a phone is not ID.

Even if you could magic up ID for every platform user, how would you force i.e. Russian or Indian police forces to prosecute people who were found to be sending online abuse? Because without that they can have a verified account and still say whatever the feck they like.

I'm not going to put forward suggestions because there is no workable solution, at least none that involves ID.

The only valid options are following your suggestion of creating two-tier systems, where most of the world can't interact with famous people. Or simply blocking all forms of messaging to famous people/verified accounts. To be honest these accounts are nothing more than one-way marketing tools now anyway so I don't really see much of a problem with that.

Beyond that it's just the usual. Better algorithms, faster responses, more robust banning (i.e. banning devices rather than IP addresses).
 

jesperjaap

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The only people that can do something properly about online abuse are the actual sites themselves. A lot of the worst abuse I have senn is from anoymynous accounts or accounts with usernames and profile pics etc that are not of an actual person.

We have seen with some of these media giants, they really dont care about being ethical or there users like you....you are just a nuber, but revenues and reach. So the only way this changes for these companies is if they dont have customers. The answer is simple, mass boycotts of these sites, that is the only answer for me
 

Borys

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That would be up to twitter, if there is no direct contact with the account then that is something. I saw posters directly attacking the three lads.
I'm no social media specialist, but it's not like Rashford and co are getting direct messages from random people right? Not sure what you mean by direct attack, maybe I am missing something.
 

JohnZSmith27

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Okay that may be unfair but what is your suggestion?
I don't know what the answer is. I really wish I did. I can't imagine what it's like to receive such hateful abuse.

I just don't think the proposed idea of requiring identification to be the solution as it is unfair to marginalised people. Someone who needs to hide their online ID for fear of being found by an abusive ex or someone who would be in danger if they were disclose their sexual identity should enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else online, including interacting with verified users. They should not have to give up their anonymity because of these scumbag racist trolls.
 

Camilo

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Why can they not properly verify themselves? Most or if not all twitter users have access to a phone right?

Also how else do you control it? I dont see you put forward any suggestion which suggests you are okay with people being
abused.,
It's awful to see this decisive, antagonist nonsense still being written. Horrid attitude.
 

Borys

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The majority of the world cannot magic up ID that would do an acceptable job of identifying them. Having a phone is not ID.

Even if you could magic up ID for every platform user, how would you force i.e. Russian or Indian police forces to prosecute people who were found to be sending online abuse? Because without that they can have a verified account and still say whatever the feck they like.

I'm not going to put forward suggestions because there is no workable solution, at least none that involves ID.

The only valid options are following your suggestion of creating two-tier systems, where most of the world can't interact with famous people. Or simply blocking all forms of messaging to famous people/verified accounts. To be honest these accounts are nothing more than one-way marketing tools now anyway so I don't really see much of a problem with that.

Beyond that it's just the usual. Better algorithms, faster responses, more robust banning (i.e. banning devices rather than IP addresses).
I don't know what the answer is. I really wish I did. I can't imagine what it's like to receive such hateful abuse.

I just don't think the proposed idea of requiring identification to be the solution as it is unfair to marginalised people. Someone who needs to hide their online ID for fear of being found by an abusive ex or someone who would be in danger if they were disclose their sexual identity should enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else online, including interacting with verified users. They should not have to give up their anonymity because of these scumbag racist trolls.
Exactly. Online ID might be a solution for a very very small number of highly developed (not only technologically, but also culturally) places in the world, but it creates many more problems in all the other areas.
 

buchansleftleg

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Try uploading some copyrighted music, or live stream some football via social media and see how quick it is automatically deleted.

Unfortunately the victims of racist abuse don't seem to have as much influence as lawyers for major music and sports organisations.

The coding wouldn't be bulletproof but it would knock out 90% of it without requiring people to have solid ID for an account.
 

Ramshock

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Try uploading some copyrighted music, or live stream some football via social media and see how quick it is automatically deleted.

Unfortunately the victims of racist abuse don't seem to have as much influence as lawyers for major music and sports organisations.

The coding wouldn't be bulletproof but it would knock out 90% of it without requiring people to have solid ID for an account.
The Beanysports guy had his twitter account suspended for 4 months because of unverified claims against him. He only just got it back. It affected his youtube income. If the person who made the unsubstantiated claims had their ID verified they probably wouldnt have done it.
 

Ramshock

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I don't know what the answer is. I really wish I did. I can't imagine what it's like to receive such hateful abuse.

I just don't think the proposed idea of requiring identification to be the solution as it is unfair to marginalised people. Someone who needs to hide their online ID for fear of being found by an abusive ex or someone who would be in danger if they were disclose their sexual identity should enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else online, including interacting with verified users. They should not have to give up their anonymity because of these scumbag racist trolls.
How can they be found by an abusive ex if their ID is for twitter verification only? We arent talking about them having to use their real names to post. The ID only comes into play if said account has been abusive to other twitter users. Twitter can then send the ID to the appropriate authorities.
 

Ramshock

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Exactly. Online ID might be a solution for a very very small number of highly developed (not only technologically, but also culturally) places in the world, but it creates many more problems in all the other areas.
Again the purpose of ID verification isnt that the real name is to be used on the twitter account. Its only to be used if the account has breached Twitter TOS by abusing other accounts.
 

JohnZSmith27

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How can they be found by an abusive ex if their ID is for twitter verification only? We arent talking about them having to use their real names to post. The ID only comes into play if said account has been abusive to other twitter users. Twitter can then send the ID to the appropriate authorities.
The point is they shouldn't have to. Maybe having to give real ID, even if it is only to Twitter might stop some vulnerable people from having an account and it shouldn't be that way. There needs to be a solution that doesn't involve forcing the vast majority of people who use twitter like normal people to have to provide ID so we can track down the people who use it to dish out abuse.
 

Ramshock

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The point is they shouldn't have to. Maybe having to give real ID, even if it is only to Twitter might stop some vulnerable people from having an account and it shouldn't be that way. There needs to be a solution that doesn't involve forcing the vast majority of people who use twitter like normal people to have to provide ID so we can track down the people who use it to dish out abuse.
ID is only required if you want to talk to verified accounts though that was my point. You wont be able to tweet to a celebrity, or any public figure who chooses to set up their account that way. If Marcus Rashford for example only wants people to respond to his tweets who are ID verified then if you want to respond to his tweet you must be verified. If not then you cannot respond to his tweet. It doesnt impinge on you using twitter any other way.
 

nathanf99

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I would suggest the system of a blue tick for verified "famous" people being applied to everyone. That way, everyone can have a social media account, but only those who have validated their ID can post messages. Isn't the tick meant to tell us which celeb accounts are genuine? Why can that not apply to the masses?

This would mean the platform still maintains the same level of users, but only allows those willing to prove who they are, to engage.

Advertisers on these social platforms only care about number of viewers, not how many are genuine or validated, so this method covers all bases.

You can sign up if you are a racist idiot, which boosts the user number on the platform, but you can't send obscene messages or posts to anyone. If you are a good person, like most of us are, you won't care about a quick validation.. I mean you even do that sort of validation on dating apps nowadays! Don't ask me how I know that :-)
 
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JohnZSmith27

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ID is only required if you want to talk to verified accounts though that was my point. You wont be able to tweet to a celebrity, or any public figure who chooses to set up their account that way. If Marcus Rashford for example only wants people to respond to his tweets who are ID verified then if you want to respond to his tweet you must be verified. If not then you cannot respond to his tweet. It doesnt impinge on you using twitter any other way.
That's fine. If people who are verified only want to be contacted by other verified people they should have that option in their settings. My issue is with people suggesting you should need to provide ID to have a twitter account at all.
 

Ramshock

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That's fine. If people who are verified only want to be contacted by other verified people they should have that option in their settings. My issue is with people suggesting you should need to provide ID to have a twitter account at all.
Nah Im all for people using social media anonymously as long as they dont use it to abuse others. The above method is the only way I see it working.
 

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Lines up with what Southgate said:



BBC Newsnight did a similar analysis and found that potentially only 5 of the 105 racist comments they found may have originated in the UK.

During the group stages Hope Not Hate found 44 racist messages out of 585,000 posts analysed. 0.0075%. No country data was available.

Even just looking at the accounts involved is an easy indicator. After the EL final when De Gea and Rashford got sent abusive messages, it was again almost exclusively non-European accounts - and they were begging to be 'included in the screenshot' and boasting 'about to be famous'. From the dawn of the Internet 'don't feed the trolls' has been the mantra, and societally we're instead choosing to ignore that and feed them with the attention they crave.

On the back of all of this, wannabe authoritarian idiots like Piers Morgan, and other reactionaries, are using it to campaign for further online privacy erosions. The 'Online Harms Bill' has already been crucified by multiple leftist organisations and free speech groups - and no doubt it's getting more draconian by the day. I don't think it's a coincidence when you see outlets like The Daily Mail printing Southgate's entire interview about the abuse but leaving out the line about 'a lot of it has come from abroad'.
This! Sadly there are professional trolls these days, and they feed on the attention. Personally I would never be bothered by abuse from faceless cowards, but I understand how hurtful it can be to these young players. Surely the tech companies can make it impossible for them to post to the players directly, and leave them shouting at thin air, while being rightfully ignored. Take away their oxygen and they'll crawl back under their rocks. Or more likely find another sad hobby.
 

MUFC OK

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This. Your online ID should be directly linked to your real ID.

That way if some cretin posts racist abuse then they get arrested and are accountable for their actions just like they would be on the street.

In no world should you be able to break the law under the guise of anonymity.
They can still use the “I was hacked” excuse. Very hard to disprove such a claim.
 

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Yeah but only if you want to tweet to a verified account, for those who value anonymity
It should be a setting available to verified accounts. Only accept responses and DMs by other verified accounts. If there are some verified accounts who are nutty enough to want to keep the status quo and have interaction with the wider anonymous internet, that's their choice. Which carries the known risks.

There should also be 3rd party verification services that are regulated more strictly by the governments but are neither part of the social media tech giants nor necessarily part of the government. To encourage more people to get a verified accounts by alleviating worries about sensitive data being available to tech companies.
 

My only Eric

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facebook already gets hacked like almost every tuesday, and everyone's info gets leaked.

You think those spam callers and scammers are a nuisance? Just wait until they hack the social media company and get your full ID

Under no condition should anyone put their ID on any social media platform.
 

Stacks

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Its simple, only allow people who are ID verified to respond to posts by verified accounts.
This. Your online ID should be directly linked to your real ID.

That way if some cretin posts racist abuse then they get arrested and are accountable for their actions just like they would be on the street.

In no world should you be able to break the law under the guise of anonymity.
Yeah but only if you want to tweet to a verified account, for those who value anonymity
Why are you conflating the two posts? I said nothing about arrests. If you as a verified twitter account holder want the protection of only being tweeted to by people with verified IDs then you should have that privilege if you want it. That way if people want to remain using the platform anonymously they can do so, but if they want to interact with a verified account that chooses this setting then they have to be ID verified. I cannot see any other way to do it except for the abused account owners leaving twitter.
defeats the purpose. Celebs like interreacting with their fans and many won't want to hand ID over to 3rd party social media companies known for selling data. Solution could be to allow users to limit what type of terms/content can be posted on THEIR page e.g. if you want you can ban monkey emojis on your page specifically and others of your choice. But only under your posts
 

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Again the purpose of ID verification isnt that the real name is to be used on the twitter account. Its only to be used if the account has breached Twitter TOS by abusing other accounts.
That's fine from the perspective of social media stand point.

But it doesn't come close to solving a problem because:
A) people on unverified accounts will still be posting racist content
B) People on verified accounts outside od a few countries will still be posting racist content because it's highly unlikely they'll ever face consequences

Don't get me wrong, your proposition is the best ideas in this thread, but it's still not a solution which fights online racism effectively.
 

Adcuth

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Would it not be easy to have every post have to go through a check before it is actually posted on someone's page to make sure it doesn't include anything hurtful.
 

RUCK4444

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defeats the purpose. Celebs like interreacting with their fans and many won't want to hand ID over to 3rd party social media companies known for selling data. Solution could be to allow users to limit what type of terms/content can be posted on THEIR page e.g. if you want you can ban monkey emojis on your page specifically and others of your choice. But only under your posts
Then they can feck off and send them fan mail.

I’m sorry but I don’t give a shite how people dress it up, you shouldn’t be able to do something online that you can’t legally do on the street. It’s not an alternative universe.

I can’t stand people who clamour for anonymity, get over yourself, nobody cares who you are.
If you want to interact with other humans then it’s fair for you to be identifiable.

That’s not aimed at you of course, just generally speaking. Imo if your desperate for anonymity then your hiding something… but then I’m from an era where if you want to find a mate or a girlfriend you get off your arse and go out into the real world, so what do I know.
 

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Then they can feck off and send them fan mail.

I’m sorry but I don’t give a shite how people dress it up, you shouldn’t be able to do something online that you can’t legally do on the street. It’s not an alternative universe.

I can’t stand people who clamour for anonymity, get over yourself, nobody cares who you are.
If you want to interact with other humans then it’s fair for you to be identifiable.

That’s not aimed at you of course, just generally speaking. Imo if your desperate for anonymity then your hiding something… but then I’m from an era where if you want to find a mate or a girlfriend you get off your arse and go out into the real world, so what do I know.
I have emails that aren't connected to my identity so its always been this. Its not so much about anonymity but protection of our data which has already been abused. Also many demographics of people don't actually have forms of ID so this becomes discriminatory practices. Anonymity can also be actually quite useful as you can protect yourself from being bullied or protect children from Paedos. Imagine a child wants to use social media but maybe doesn't want their real details to be searched and found by stalkers/paedos etc. If I was a young girl who had been approached by Paedos online I would probably make a new anonymous account so I'm not bothered by weirdos but can connect with my fav celebs. Its about being as inclusive as possible while also protecting users. Its not just about celebs protection
 

Ramshock

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That's fine from the perspective of social media stand point.

But it doesn't come close to solving a problem because:
A) people on unverified accounts will still be posting racist content
B) People on verified accounts outside od a few countries will still be posting racist content because it's highly unlikely they'll ever face consequences

Don't get me wrong, your proposition is the best ideas in this thread, but it's still not a solution which fights online racism effectively.
They may be posting racist tweets but not at the people they are abusing
 

Ramshock

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It should be a setting available to verified accounts. Only accept responses and DMs by other verified accounts. If there are some verified accounts who are nutty enough to want to keep the status quo and have interaction with the wider anonymous internet, that's their choice. Which carries the known risks.

There should also be 3rd party verification services that are regulated more strictly by the governments but are neither part of the social media tech giants nor necessarily part of the government. To encourage more people to get a verified accounts by alleviating worries about sensitive data being available to tech companies.
Isntt here a "who can reply" feature? Ive seen it ocassionally on there
 

Ramshock

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defeats the purpose. Celebs like interreacting with their fans and many won't want to hand ID over to 3rd party social media companies known for selling data. Solution could be to allow users to limit what type of terms/content can be posted on THEIR page e.g. if you want you can ban monkey emojis on your page specifically and others of your choice. But only under your posts
You dont have to verify your ID unless you want to interact with celebs. Also this would only be if the public figure or celeb sets their account this way. Some may not give a feck what Darren and Karen from Grimsby say to them others may care so they may choose to limit the accound to ID verified only interaction.

I dont see many options other than id verification.

Either
1. The abuse continues and public figures are forced off the platform.

2. Twitter charges for the app and therefore get your billing information but also they get to charge you money. Charging for it would probably halve its user base.

3. Have a multi tier app where only verified blue tick accounts can interact with each other and the plebs with themselves. I dont think anyone would want that.


In reality number 1 is the most likely outcome and is currently happening.

Our own gaffers account didnt last 5 minutes after the plastic cnuts among us turned on him.