What went wrong for Van Gaal?

[caid]

I think its a 1000 small things.
We never really got a good run going under him.
Confidence will paper over a lot of cracks.

I dont really accept hes a terrible manager or even outdated.
His work with the Dutch NT and AZ was good.
Hes not top tier i guess but the problems run deeper than him and will hang around after hes gone imo

 

[Chesterlestreet]

From what I heard Conte, Ranieri, Guardiola or Simeone do not handle players delicately.

Maybe not. I'm not familiar with what they do on the detail plane. The latter is usually the interesting part, though. The devil is in the details, as they say.

Fergie was ruthless with some players, not so ruthless with others, all depending on the circumstances. LVG's style seems less flexible. Generally, when you treat people under your command more or less uniformly, it helps the more uniform they are to begin with, as a group. Young players who have it all to prove are generally easier to command than veterans who, from their perspective, have nothing to prove.

 

[K2K]

I disagree with that. He has done it at Bayern with Robben, true. But he also did it on a much lower level with AZ to win the Dutch league with that team which was a big surprise at the time. He is ofcourse at fault for buying players who aren't up to par, but I think the fact that he did is the reason his system fails, not the fact that the system is wrong in and on itself. Ofcourse it's much easier to get results if you play like Mourinho. Kick the living crap out of everything that moves and park a bus whenever you're 1 goal up. LVG is an idealist. He may be out of his depth here and he undoubtely has failed miserably at United, but I don't hink his 'philosophy' is ludicrous. It only works with players of exceptional skill and at United you'd expect such players imo. Fact is United are just an average side at the moment.

The players arent average, especially relative to the level of competitoon in the premier league.

Its merely a case of players he has signed that he simply doesnt know how to use. Considering that our biggest problems seem to come against the bottom 10 and lower league teams, its really just another excuse paddled out by the LVGbots.

Its more that the players have been saddled with a manager that simply doesnt get the league, and he himself way past his innovative best.

 

[Eto'odinho]

LVG really is the Dirk Kuyt of managers, a beast in Holland that flatters to deceive elsewhere. If one carefully analyses his time here then the parallels with Kuyt's career are even the more staggering. Both would turn up against good opposition, stumble onto a decent streak of form lasting no more than four games, and be generally abysmal for the remainder of the season.

It is the inconsistency of his managerial approach that's confusing the players thus contributing to abject performances. A vast majority of the players just go through the motions giving the impression: "What am I supposed to do with the ball?" everytime they're on the pitch.

His insistence on sitting on enjoying the comforts of the Recaro bench seats isn't helping either. He should just let footballers be footballers and not thinkers, afterall isn't that what the manager is paid to do?

LVG kindly do the world a favour and leave our club

 

[SalfordRed1960]

The players arent average, especially relative to the level of competitoon in the premier league.

Agree with that, but they do seem to be very Arsenalesque in that they do not fight and are weak mentally. Those lower placed teams you talk about, fight for their lives as they are weaker technically. Our players can't cope with that, some go hiding, some just panic. I can't remember the last time I saw one of our players running full speed back when an opposing player goes past them or they are out of position. They do not seem to understand you have to make things happen. You look at how Leicester players are running themselves into the ground to get the better of their opponents, ours don't. All head and no passion, you need both. I am not sure that is down to LVG, that is the character of the player, something that Fergie was quite good at spotting.

 

[JPRouve]

Agree with that, but they do seem to be very Arsenalesque in that they do not fight and are weak mentally. Those lower placed teams you talk about, fight for their lives as they are weaker technically. Our players can't cope with that, some go hiding, some just panic. I can't remember the last time I saw one of our players running full speed back when an opposing player goes past them or they are out of position. They do not seem to understand you have to make things happen. You look at how Leicester players are running themselves into the ground to get the better of their opponents, ours don't. All head and no passion, you need both. I am not sure that is down to LVG, that is the character of the player, something that Fergie was quite good at spotting.

Players are made for a place in the league. For example a team with top half players who finds itself in a relegation battle will struggle a lot more than a team with bottom half players because the mindset is different, the bottom half players are where they are supposed to be, they know it and don't doubt themselves when the results aren't good, on the other hand the top half players aren't used to lose often and they tend to not cope very well.

 

[caisenma]

1. possession football is wrong in england. it doesn't work. ask leicester, they'll gladly give us the ball for 60 per cent of the time.

2. square pegs in round holes. ridiculous personnel decisions on a regular basis.

3. relentless backing of rooney, no matter what. even now LVG says once rooney is fit he'll play again, as he's the captain. the captain shall always play!


i'm sure there are a million other reasons.

 

[Boycott]

He had a three year window to 'build the foundations'.

He arrived and immediately spoke about it being a first team project.

He underestimated the job in hand. Because his philosophy worked elsewhere it would just click.

He didn't improve the quality in our squad relative to the money he spent.

He prides himself as a manager whose work is done in preparation. Hence why he doesn't do much in-game bar subs. He expects his players to follow the philosophy without thinking long. Everything in game is a reflection on training - which we hear the players are drained about. And our players indivdual performances have not improved. There's more sign of regression and stagnation than progression. So his training/coaching has failed with the first team. Now when the game is up he's falling on youth who are more receptive to ideas because they have the drive and all to prove. He's in his element now but left it too late.

 

[Smores]

The first issue was him trying to make us play like Holland, who over achieved in the world cup and looked flat in many games. We never at any point had someone up front to make that work.

He then tried to morph this with a more traditional United set up which basically just took the importance of possession and that's it.

He's been unable to figure out how to make us click ever since. Much in the same way Moyes couldn't figure it out. As much as I dislike them both I'd have been interested to see what could have been if we'd have brought in a world class pacy attacker.

 

[devilish]

I guess you could say this question divides fans into two camps: those who think the problem is Van Gaal doesnt understand the problem, be it tactical, personnel-related or whatever else; and those who think the problem is one of implementation, or execution, of his ideas, including the ability to motivate his players and to transmit his ideas to them, so they actually know what they are supposed to be doing.

So @devilish above is in the former camp, for example. I would put myself in the latter, I think he understands the PL perfectly well (though he probably didnt when he had us playing 3 at the back considering that was back when he first arrived in England). I also believe he is a perfectly good judge of the abilities of his players, but he is failing to get the best out of them.

TBF I think the issue is both. He doesn't understand the EPL (3-5-2 system, slow paced ball possession football, small squad) and his man management is just shocking (Hernandez, Valdes, ADM but also Riquelme and Rivaldo at Barcelona, his sour relationship with the Bayern top people etc).

 

[Roboc7]

He simply isn't up to the job, he is a coach not a manager and just isn't equipped to deal with everything that being a successful manager in the premier league in this day and age involves. His best work has been in Holland, coaching in his native language and working with youngsters and players of limited ability, outside of Holland his record isn't great in all honesty.

He can't adapt, can't get his message across, can't deal with the egos, can't motivate or manage a squad of players and is too set in his ways to change. He doesn't lead the team or set an example in terms of passion and drive, it's no wonder the team looks spineless at times, he does t even try to influence players or officials during a game like every other manager in the league, he just writes notes and wants to coach, not manage.

His two spells as Dutch manager sum him up, with a limited group and time to coach them to play a 3-5-2 or then switch to 4-3-3 as a backup he was able to overachieve. In his first spell with a much more talented group of players which was more similar to a premier league squad in terms of stars and personalities he really struggled and was a massive failure.

This job came to late for him and he was a poor appointment chosen because the preferred candidates either didn't want the job or Woodward didn't know how to recruit the and most importantly he was a polar opposite to Moyes. Hopefully some more thought and planning goes into his successor.

 

[SambaBoy]

There's been many things that have went wrong.

His transfer dealings have been quite poor. I don't feel he ever got on with Di Maria. I appreciate AdM didn't really want to be here but if he was given the freedom and constantly picked as he should have been then who knows, maybe he would of stayed and flourished.

The likes of Welbeck, Evans, Nani and Rafael could definitely add something to this team, and should have been kept. The reluctance to sign a CB has puzzled a lot of people and doesn't look a wise move. Blind has done okay but if you analyse his performances it's clear as day that he's not a CB and it's probably due to him being an average CM that he's playing there. That may seem harsh but if we want to progress and be the best again, Blind should not be a regular starter in either position. Under Fergie, he would have been utilised very well, coming in at CM in some games, covering at LB and filling in at CB when needed.

In addition, even when winning games back in August, a big alarming point was that Carrick/Rooney had to speak to him to cheer the dressing room up, that shouldn't be happening when a team is winning games especially at the start of the season when there's less pressure.

Something that surprised me when watching our pre-season training was Van Gaal instructing Rooney on how to finish, surely other managers don't do this unless they have been the very elite i.e. Simeone and Guardiola and even then I highly doubt they would be instructing their strikers (top top strikers who have been round the block) on how to finish.

I understand attacking coaches using phases of play in how to approach the game and how to maximise their effectiveness in the box, or even general tips for younger strikers but Rooney has been one of the best players over the last 10 years and I'm sure he knows by now how to finish. I can't imagine the players warming to them type of instructions. Tactically and structurally I understand managers giving orders but based on technique, I'm not sure it's wise especially with experienced players.

For me, LvG can see a good game and knows how he wants to play the game but he hasn't adapted to the Premiership, it really is a different beast compared to other leagues, as has been mentioned all the successful teams were about power and counter-attacking football rather than tiki-taka football. Arsenal with Adams, Vieira, Henry and two speedy wingers, United have always been known for their wing play and counter attacking football while Leicester are showing just how effective it is this season.

 

[ManUchosenbosslvg]

LVG really is the Dirk Kuyt of managers, a beast in Holland that flatters to deceive elsewhere. If one carefully analyses his time here then the parallels with Kuyt's career are even the more staggering. Both would turn up against good opposition, stumble onto a decent streak of form lasting no more than four games, and be generally abysmal for the remainder of the season.

It is the inconsistency of his managerial approach that's confusing the players thus contributing to abject performances. A vast majority of the players just go through the motions giving the impression: "What am I supposed to do with the ball?" everytime they're on the pitch.

His insistence on sitting on enjoying the comforts of the Recaro bench seats isn't helping either. He should just let footballers be footballers and not thinkers, afterall isn't that what the manager is paid to do?

LVG kindly do the world a favour and leave our club

Kuyt was actually a very good squad player for years. At his worst he still worked harder than anyone else even if he wasn't banging the goals in.

Fergie made no secret if his admiration for Kuyt and I'd have to agree.

 

[Xaviesta]

1. possession football is wrong in england. it doesn't work. ask leicester, they'll gladly give us the ball for 60 per cent of the time.

2. square pegs in round holes. ridiculous personnel decisions on a regular basis.

3. relentless backing of rooney, no matter what. even now LVG says once rooney is fit he'll play again, as he's the captain. the captain shall always play!


i'm sure there are a million other reasons.

I agree with point two and three but what if Guardiola brings his possession based game to England next season and Manchester City win the title? I'm probably in a minority here but possession football can work in England, it's an issue of how teams implement it. United's snails pace version of it was never going to work.

 

[Adebesi]

Even if Guardiola struggles at City I wouldn't take that as proof possession football can't work in England. Tho it'd make a far stronger case.

 

[devilish]

Even if Guardiola struggles at City I wouldn't take that as proof possession football can't work in England. Tho it'd make a far stronger case.

Comparing Guardiola with LVG is like comparing a BAE Taranis steath fighter drone and the longbow because they were quite effective weapons from British design. LVG and Guardiola may share the same concept but football had evolved alot throughout the years. You're comparing one of the finest managers in today's football with someone who last won the CL when Hughes was still playing for us

 

[ashgabat]

I read everything in past tense and thought he was sacked!

Damn you.

 

[Adebesi]

Comparing Guardiola with LVG is like comparing a BAE Taranis steath fighter drone and the longbow because they were quite effective weapons from British design. LVG and Guardiola may share the same concept but football had evolved alot throughout the years. You're comparing one of the finest managers in today's football with someone who last won the CL when Hughes was still playing for us

I think that is over-egging it a bit. They are both managers who like possession football. Guardiola is much better, but that doesnt make them incomparable.

Having said that, I am also comfortable comparing apples and oranges (oranges are much better). I was also happy to compare Zidane and Bramble, and had no difficulty at all concluding that Zidane was better. So maybe my willingness to compare things that are not almost exactly the same makes me unusual.

 

[devilish]

I think that is over-egging it a bit. They are both managers who like possession football. Guardiola is much better, but that doesnt make them incomparable.

Having said that, I am also comfortable comparing apples and oranges (oranges are much better). I was also happy to compare Zidane and Bramble, and had no difficulty at all concluding that Zidane was better. So maybe my willingness to compare things that are not almost exactly the same makes me unusual.

It was meant to be that way to highlight a point. Ball possession is a generic terms that collect in it hordes of tactics and philosophies. Its similar to defensive minded football. Helenio Herrera's catenacchio and Jose Mourinho's tactics can both be termed as defensive minded football. However no one can accuse Maureen of using the catenacchio.

Pep is the 90s (upgraded) version of LVG. Similarly to LVG at Ajax he took football by surprise by introducing to the world some of the best youths in the world. His tactics are still fresh and brutally effective. At one point his tactics will be countered just like that of any other manager. At that point he eithers reinvent himself as SAF did when he moved away from his iconic 4-4-2 system or he will become less and less effective only to vanish away. That the difference between great managers (Clough, Capello, Sacchi, LVG) and absolute legends (SAF)

 

[Adebesi]

It was meant to be that way to highlight a point. Ball possession is a generic terms that collect in it hordes of tactics and philosophies. Its similar to defensive minded football. Helenio Herrera's catenacchio and Jose Mourinho's tactics can both be termed as defensive minded football. However no one can accuse Maureen of using the catenacchio.

Pep is the 90s (upgraded) version of LVG. Similarly to LVG at Ajax he took football by surprise by introducing to the world some of the best youths in the world. His tactics are still fresh and brutally effective. At one point his tactics will be countered just like that of any other manager. At that point he eithers reinvent himself as SAF did when he moved away from his iconic 4-4-2 system or he will become less and less effective only to vanish away. That the difference between great managers (Clough, Capello, Sacchi, LVG) and absolute legends (SAF)

OK well saying Pep is an upgraded version of LVG is something I can get on board with. Saying that comparing them (which you have just done by saying one is an upgrade of the other) is like comparing a fighter plane and a longbow I cant. Either way, my original point stands: there is no reason IMO possession football cant work in England, and if Guardiola fails at City that wont prove otherwise as far as Im concerned.

 

[devilish]

OK well saying Pep is an upgraded version of LVG is something I can get on board with. Saying that comparing them (which you have just done by saying one is an upgrade of the other) is like comparing a fighter plane and a longbow I cant. Either way, my original point stands: there is no reason IMO possession football cant work in England, and if Guardiola fails at City that wont prove otherwise as far as Im concerned.

I think that its going to be a big test for Pep. He had invented a winning style just as LVG did in the 90s and he has shown that he could implement it with another top side successfully (although not without hiccups). Now he's set to implemented in England, at another top club but which is not as good as Bayern/Barca. Will he be able to achieve the same results? If not will he be able to tweak it to make it successful? That's the big test for him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

For me it is mostly down to a complete underestimation of the EPL. I do think he is a good coach, hence why he has enjoyed success at various clubs and his methods don't seem massively different from other managers - I remember seeing an interview with Giggs where he mentioned a lot of the drills in training were similar but there was a lot more focus on the analysis of opponents.

PL is too aggressive and fast for slow possession based football

 

[Adebesi]

I think that its going to be a big test for Pep. He had invented a winning style just as LVG did in the 90s and he has shown that he could implement it with another top side successfully (although not without hiccups). Now he's set to implemented in England, at another top club but which is not as good as Bayern/Barca. Will he be able to achieve the same results? If not will he be able to tweak it to make it successful? That's the big test for him.

Agreed. Its going to be a fascinating situation as it unfolds. Its a shame that I will now be rooting for him to fail, because I do like the guy. But yes, City is a big test, a necessary test, for him. I do think he still has something to prove, yes he has proven himself to be a very good manager but there will always be doubts about whether he is any more than that. I think how he does at City will put that debate to bed one way or the other.

 

[devilish]

Agreed. Its going to be a fascinating situation as it unfolds. Its a shame that I will now be rooting for him to fail, because I do like the guy. But yes, City is a big test, a necessary test, for him. I do think he still has something to prove, yes he has proven himself to be a very good manager but there will always be doubts about whether he is any more than that. I think how he does at City will put that debate to bed one way or the other.

I agree. I don't follow German football so much however I got Bayern fans friends of mine who are glad to see him leave. So somehow something is wrong in Pep's paradise. Maybe its just a storm in a teacup and Pep will dazzle the EPL with his tactics etc. However the parking the bus tactic used by many EPL is quite tough to break. Hence why Pep was my second choice option behind a more practical and EPL proven Carlo Ancelotti

 

[Adebesi]

I agree. I don't follow German football so much however I got Bayern fans friends of mine who are glad to see him leave. So somehow something is wrong in Pep's paradise. Maybe its just a storm in a teacup and Pep will dazzle the EPL with his tactics etc. However the parking the bus tactic used by many EPL is quite tough to break. Hence why Pep was my second choice option behind a more practical and EPL proven Carlo Ancelotti

Yeah he was my first choice as well, wish we'd somehow got him straight after SAF.