When exactly did our decline begin?

[dinostar77]

Decline for me began when we sold Ronaldo and Tevez in the same summer (so agree with what Rooney said in the papers today). Snjeider and Robben were both available that summer from Madrid. I would have taken the pair. Instead we got Valencia, Michael Owen, Obertan and Diouf.

The whole "no value in the market" line really didnt help matters.

However on the flipside, post fergie an absolute fortune has been spent with very little to show for it. Unfortunately i think the club will remain in the current status quo for many years to come.

If they (glazers) really wanted Utd to challenge they would have copied the model that City use. Instead of having a Spanish core (manager, DoF, ceo) we could have gone dutch for example (eric ten hag, dutch DoF, Van Der Saar as ceo). At least a footballing philosophy would be ingrained in the club from top to bottom. We would be getting a manager on the rise in ten hag and by all accounts a fantastic ceo.

Or the glazers, could have broken with the past completely. Brought in a dictator like Conte, backed him in the market and on players going in and out and tried to play conte's preferred 343 or 352. Breaking with the back four that utd have used for decades.

But no, we have a glazer "yes man" as ceo. There is hope when it comes to murtough and fletcher, but the next managerial appointment has to be the right one, to try to make the club challenge again for the biggest trophies.

I would like Ten Hag to be given the chance, but i think Poch will be chosen instead. Utd at board level seem to have a desire to have Poch in the hotseat. He did do a utterly fantastic job at Spurs. Like Mourinho and now Conte, Levy just ignores managers who tell him the playing squad needs a overhaul.

Managing the egos at PSG, not only the players, but DoF Leonardo and the CEO as well cant be easy. CL trophy is the coveted prize, but when you have to carry a front three (easy in domestic league), it gets difficult in the CL knockout games against the best teams from other countries. Hard to judge Poch at PSG as ot was to judge tuchel when he was there.

 

[Smithy89]

Glimpses of it in 2010, but thanks to SAF and still having top players we stayed at a level. Then came 2013 and it's been downhill ever since, bad manager after bad manager, awful signings after awful signings. I personally think we have made 1 good signing in 5 years.

 

[golden_blunder]

Glimpses of it in 2010, but thanks to SAF and still having top players we stayed at a level. Then came 2013 and it's been downhill ever since, bad manager after bad manager, awful signings after awful signings. I personally think we have made 1 good signing in 5 years.

Who?

 

[Smithy89]

Who?

Bruno, although he has been way too inconsistent this season, borderline shocking at times.

 

[RORY65]

United didn't 'let' Tevez go to City United held up their side of the deal agreed in 2007 but Tevez and his owner understandably took the financial offer from City that was basically double what United were offering.

Fine, it's semantics. Ronaldo was sold for £80m so if they wanted to match City's offer then in theory they could have done so or at least invested in a striker of similar quality rather than Michael Owen and Mame Biram Diouf.

 

[Ralph1386]

Valencia is mentioned too many times in this thread. The fact of the matter is that any replacement for Ronaldo would have been a step down (yes, even transfer muppets' wet dream Robben) and Valencia was a great player for us. Maybe not as sexy but whatever.

Owen and Obertan, fair enough.

Rather than focus on who we brought in, why not focus on the fact that we let a club who was a joke both domestically and in Europe, poach Ronaldo from us for cheap, and we didn't think it was prudent to keep Tevez in the aftermath?

The problem was not Valencia. He was decent. The problem is that Ronaldo should have been replaced with more than one player, not just Valencia.

Instead, the Glazers took most of the Ronaldo money to pay their debts back.

 

[stevoc]

Fine, it's semantics. Ronaldo was sold for £80m so if they wanted to match City's offer then in theory they could have done so or at least invested in a striker of similar quality rather than Michael Owen and Mame Biram Diouf.

There's zero chance United would have doubled the wages/fee offer United and Tevez/Agent agreed 2 years before which Tevez reneged on. That would make no sense the guy didn't want to be at United he hated Manchester and was apparently a difficult character around the training ground. I get the impression that Ferguson wasn't too sad the deal never came off.

He wouldn't have been the player he was at City playing second fiddle to Rooney anyway. And that season we didn't really need another striker as Ferguson wanted to transition to 433 so with Rooney and Berbatov (plus Owen as an option).

 

[Grylte]

SAF had to retire at some point, that was obviously the main thing that started the decline, but it could have been less dramatic, imo, if Moyes didn't get rid of all the coaches and staff that worked under SAF.

 

[RORY65]

There's zero chance United would have doubled the wages/fee offer United and Tevez/Agent agreed 2 years before which Tevez reneged on. That would make no sense the guy didn't want to be at United he hated Manchester and was apparently a difficult character around the training ground. I get the impression that Ferguson wasn't too sad the deal never came off.

He wouldn't have been the player he was at City playing second fiddle to Rooney anyway. And that season we didn't really need another striker as Ferguson wanted to transition to 433 so with Rooney and Berbatov (plus Owen as an option).

He hated Manchester so much that he ended up joining City? I wrote 2 paragraphs several weeks ago and you're literally pinpointing one sentence now. We had Ronaldo and Tevez one season, the next we had Owen, Obertan and Valencia. However it happened that is a huge downgrade.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

SAF had to retire at some point, that was obviously the main thing that started the decline, but it could have been less dramatic, imo, if Moyes didn't get rid of all the coaches and staff that worked under SAF.

I fully agree, with SAF age and Gill leaving at the same time, the Glazers are guilty of neglect and this huge change was criminally unplanned for. I don’t blame Moyes as I think it’s the clubs fault that we didn’t have a succession plan in place behind the scenes.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I fully agree, with SAF age and Gill leaving at the same time, the Glazers are guilty of neglect and this huge change was criminally unplanned for. I don’t blame Moyes as I think it’s the clubs fault that we didn’t have a succession plan in place behind the scenes.

I would say it was the apparent failure to plan for Fergie's retirement and to have a board with the courage to manage him out. GIll did many interviews where he assured us all that there was a plan and the club had learnt from past mstakes (the post Busby era). The problem I see was that the Glazers massively lucked out on buying the club with Fergue at the healm, most specifically his ability to squeeze trophies out of a fairly average squad that was not being invested in, They were then both too ignorant too in debt to him to manage him out. Bayern always decided when a manager went, no matter how long they had been there. I have never seen an explanation as to why Gill left at the same time, pushed or jumped. I suspect bit of both.

So bottom line we exactly followed the disaster of post Busby. Allow Fergie to choose successor, allow him to sit upstairs and be a constant presence around club, allow him to contiue to have a role in decision making. At the same time, allow the football structure, youth systems that the great man had put in place to fade away and leave us well behind our challengers.

 

[mctrials23]

Lot of misty eyed reminiscing in here. As Rooney said, we were starting to decline after we sold Ronaldo and Tevez and you could argue that the seeds of that decline were sown even before that. We refused to upgrade/fix weaknesses in our team for years before Fergie retired, he was just a good enough manager that he compensated for them. He also wasn't competing in anything like the current climate. There weren't as many good teams about which were competing with us, the smaller teams were far weaker and the small teams couldn't hold onto their players like they can now.

Fergie was easily one of the best managers of all time but the writing was on the wall for United for a few years before he left, its just that no one wanted to believe it.

Its the same in here. Ole was showing no signs of being top class or good enough to compete with Pep or Klopp but people ignored all the signs because we were doing alright results wise. Sometimes you have to look past results and look at the foundations. Just because your house with shit foundations is standing tall today doesn't mean that its not going to fall down eventually. Cracks will appear, issues will become apparent but it will still function as a house until it becomes so bad that you wonder how it ever was considered a good house.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Lot of misty eyed reminiscing in here. As Rooney said, we were starting to decline after we sold Ronaldo and Tevez and you could argue that the seeds of that decline were sown even before that. We refused to upgrade/fix weaknesses in our team for years before Fergie retired, he was just a good enough manager that he compensated for them. He also wasn't competing in anything like the current climate. There weren't as many good teams about which were competing with us, the smaller teams were far weaker and the small teams couldn't hold onto their players like they can now.

Fergie was easily one of the best managers of all time but the writing was on the wall for United for a few years before he left, its just that no one wanted to believe it.

Its the same in here. Ole was showing no signs of being top class or good enough to compete with Pep or Klopp but people ignored all the signs because we were doing alright results wise. Sometimes you have to look past results and look at the foundations. Just because your house with shit foundations is standing tall today doesn't mean that its not going to fall down eventually. Cracks will appear, issues will become apparent but it will still function as a house until it becomes so bad that you wonder how it ever was considered a good house.

100% this. Its my point, a club run for football reasons with a strong and competent board finds the successor and then gives Fergie a great big thank you and off he goes. IT amy seem harsh but thats how the top teams stay at the top. But we stick with him far too long, as with Busby, and make EXACTLY the same mistakes.

 

[devips]

A sad bunch of ABU moaners in a MOANERS THREAD.

 

[Gordon Godot]

A sad bunch of ABU moaners in a MOANERS THREAD.

YOu have anything to add? Not sure if your post is genuinely ironic? Or you happy with things as they stand..

 

[jackal&hyde]

Around the time we sold Ronaldo and we could no longer compete for the Hazards of the World but had to take puns on the likes of Obertans and bring in decent but not great players like Young. SAF papered over the cracks for a while but the decline was on the horizon. A lack of investment put us on a super difficult path and no matter how much people want to hate on him, Rooney was right in seeing this. In later years the investment came, but we no longer had the WC footballing people making decisions and so a lot of money was wasted by bankers.

All could have been avoided had the owner supported SAF in his later years, we would still have had a WC quality team for the next managers, or putting in place footballing people to take football decisions after SAF. None of it happened and we are where we are.

 

[stevoc]

He hated Manchester so much that he ended up joining City?

Maybe I'm wrong and he loved manchester then or maybe he loved getting paid £280k per week. It was definitely one of those things.

Tevez said: ''There is nothing to do in Manchester. The weather, everything. It has nothing and the problem is I'm still speaking very poor English. When I finish my contract I will not return to Manchester ever, not even on holiday. Not for anything.''

I wrote 2 paragraphs several weeks ago and you're literally pinpointing one sentence now.

That post was in response to your reply mate, not sure what the problem is.

We had Ronaldo and Tevez one season, the next we had Owen, Obertan and Valencia. However it happened that is a huge downgrade

Ronaldo was a huge loss and basically unreplaceable no matter who we signed. Tevez not so much, we coped fine with Rooney. Berbatov and Owen.

 

[2cents]

Our last really great period of recruitment was summer 2005 - summer 2006. We signed VDS, Park, Vidic, Evra, and Carrick in the space of 12 months. Since then our recruitment has been shocking. Even the four of the summer 2007 never fulfilled the hopes we had for them (only Nani got close).

 

[Moston Red]

2009 was the beginning of the decline for me. Not replacing Ronaldo or Tevez and buying Valencia, Owen and Obertan was a joke. Valencia was a great squad player but not the world class player we needed. We had a half decent season with RVP and god knows how SAF got the best out of what was either an aging or average squad.

It really is depressing when you look at the money spent on useless signings and the managers that have come and gone. What an absolute waste.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

I would say it was the apparent failure to plan for Fergie's retirement and to have a board with the courage to manage him out. GIll did many interviews where he assured us all that there was a plan and the club had learnt from past mstakes (the post Busby era). The problem I see was that the Glazers massively lucked out on buying the club with Fergue at the healm, most specifically his ability to squeeze trophies out of a fairly average squad that was not being invested in, They were then both too ignorant too in debt to him to manage him out. Bayern always decided when a manager went, no matter how long they had been there. I have never seen an explanation as to why Gill left at the same time, pushed or jumped. I suspect bit of both.

So bottom line we exactly followed the disaster of post Busby. Allow Fergie to choose successor, allow him to sit upstairs and be a constant presence around club, allow him to contiue to have a role in decision making. At the same time, allow the football structure, youth systems that the great man had put in place to fade away and leave us well behind our challengers.

Absolutely mate. I agree that the Glazers were perhaps indebted to Fergie but also think it’s to do with them just being too far removed from the day to day running of the club. They seem to enjoy their hands off roles too much. Sometimes an owner does need to get involved by showing leadership and being proactive with decisions.

It is unbelievably shocking that no interview process took place and Fergie just chose his replacement. Fergie should have only been kept on in a Consultant role in case there were questions we needed to ask immediately after he left.

The decisions that we know of which Fergie advised on since he left have all been disastrous for us
- Moyes for manager
- Giggs for coach and manager (thank god he didn’t become manager)
- Ole for manager
- Ronaldo coming back

That’s only the ones we know about, he obviously means well and wants the best but sentiment and business don’t belong together.

As for Gill, he had worked under the Glazers for a few years and knew how they operated (stoped us spending any money during that period and showed no interest in the club). I truly believe he got out of dodge as he knew the Glazers were completely unprepared and rudderless. He also would of course known that the whole structure revolved around Fergie and would need changing, he probably thought I’m too old for this crap!

 

[Josh 76]

Our last really great period of recruitment was summer 2005 - summer 2006. We signed VDS, Park, Vidic, Evra, and Carrick in the space of 12 months. Since then our recruitment has been shocking. Even the four of the summer 2007 never fulfilled the hopes we had for them (only Nani got close).

Hargreaves, Anderson and Nani were all potently great signings. The price we paid for them was the equivalent of 150m today.
In there first season, they all contributed massively to one of the best seasons in the Clubs history.

 

[2cents]

Hargreaves, Anderson and Nani were all potently great signings. The price we paid for them was the equivalent of 150m today.
In there first season, they all contributed massively to one of the best seasons in the Clubs history.

Sure, but they didn't fulfill their potential. Hargreaves barely played again after Moscow, Tevez left after an individually disappointing following season, and Anderson became the comic relief at OT. Nani gave us some good years after and played a massive role in winning the league in 10/11, but was generally very frustrating throughout his time at United, and his career petered out. Definitely happy to have all of them in Moscow though.

 

[jasT1981]

It started under SAF, however he was great at papering over the cracks so we didn't notice anywhere near as much.

It was mostly from above before SAF retired, but since then it has gotten right to the core of the club.

 

[Beans]

I believe they made a statue.

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[Fully Fledged]

when saf left

Before that really. When the Glazers brought the club would be my bet.

 

[Josh 76]

Sure, but they didn't fulfill their potential. Hargreaves barely played again after Moscow, Tevez left after an individually disappointing following season, and Anderson became the comic relief at OT. Nani gave us some good years after and played a massive role in winning the league in 10/11, but was generally very frustrating throughout his time at United, and his career petered out. Definitely happy to have all of them in Moscow though.

Fulfilling their potential is another argument all together. The 2007 transfer window was excellent on paper.

If Utd signed 3 players in the summer and they all contributed to Utd wining the PL and CL, then after that didn’t full fill their potential, would anyone really give a feck ?

 

[2cents]

If Utd signed 3 players in the summer and they all contributed to Utd wining the PL and CL, then after that didn’t full fill their potential, would anyone really give a feck ?

Yeah I think so. Anderson and Nani were purchased for their long-term potential, presumably to ultimately replace the aging Scholes and Giggs to some extent. Their failure to do so certainly hurt us. And getting just one decent season out of Hargreaves was really disappointing.

 

[Hugh Jass]

I believe they made a statue.

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I think that was a Paddy Power gimmick.

 

[Josh 76]

Yeah I think so. Anderson and Nani were purchased for their long-term potential, presumably to ultimately replace the aging Scholes and Giggs to some extent. Their failure to do so certainly hurt us. And getting just one decent season out of Hargreaves was really disappointing.

So let me get this right, you would be disappointed if Utd signed 3 players in the summer, Utd go onto win the PL and CL next season, then the 3 players fade away?

I give up!

 

[2cents]

So let me get this right, you would be disappointed if Utd signed 3 players in the summer, Utd go onto win the PL and CL next season, then the 3 players fade away?

I give up!

Yes, I regard Anderson and Hargreaves in particular as very disappointing signings, and Nani as a frustrating one, albeit I enjoyed watching him for some extended spells from 2010-2012 and really appreciate his role in 10/11.

 

[MUFC OK]

Been saying for years that it was 2009. Interesting to hear Rooney say the same thing this week but it's kind of obvious. We weren't the same after losing Ronaldo and Tevez and it was down to Fergies genius and an existing winning mentality that the good times somewhat continued for a few more years.

Shame we couldn't keep that 2007-09 team together for longer considering that City and Liverpool have retained their best players for a good number of years now.

 

[MUFC OK]

2009 was the beginning of the decline for me. Not replacing Ronaldo or Tevez and buying Valencia, Owen and Obertan was a joke. Valencia was a great squad player but not the world class player we needed. We had a half decent season with RVP and god knows how SAF got the best out of what was either an aging or average squad.

It really is depressing when you look at the money spent on useless signings and the managers that have come and gone. What an absolute waste.

I remember I was on the holiday of a lifetime for 2 months in Tanzania, everytime I spoke to my dad I asked if united had signed anyone and our business that window almost ruined my trip. In hindsight I was absolutely right to feel aggrieved.

 

[Swiss Cheese]

It all started with a horse Rock of Gibraltar. Was either Fergie had to go or McManus and Magnier.

 

[Beans]

I think that was a Paddy Power gimmick.

Didn't Slippy McChoke slip on the grass during the game in which the statue was brought out? Or is that my memory playing with me. I remember crediting the statue.

 

[choccy77]

Rooney said when they sold off Tevez and Ronaldo.

I'd say that it began when we never truly replaced Keane, Scholes in midfield.

And we still haven't.

 

[Pretzels81]

2009-10
2011-12, confirmed
2012-13 (sweet mirage)
2013-14 (reality check)

 

[Hugh Jass]

Didn't Slippy McChoke slip on the grass during the game in which the statue was brought out? Or is that my memory playing with me. I remember crediting the statue.

Yea i remember seeing some rawk members saying it all went to shit as soon as the statue came, like it cursed them.

 

[daveskimufc]

I dont blame moyes, I dont blame his appointment. I blame the poor, POOR transfer window. We won the league which meant we thought we had a squad to still compete, but it was very clear we didn’t, we were too reliant on rvp, had a back four with an average age over 30.
And they thought getting fellaini in would be enough..

 

[UTD_Since_1978]

I do vaguely remember being mighty annoyed about UTD getting £80m for Ronaldo & doing virtually nothing with it that transfer window.

 

[Utd7]

2009. And unfortunately not an end in sight with this current infrastructure. What's sad is our two biggest rivals are in a great place. City will always be an issue because of their resources and how well they're run. Liverpool will be good as long as Klopp stays.