Which footballer peaked the highest?

[Ibn Battuta]

Ok here's a thought out detailed response. Please don’t TL;DR.

The legend of Zidane is that he was the mythical Maghreb who frequently dragged his team through tournaments and seasons sparkling goldust on the pitch every time he entered it. But the aura comes from a handful of CL games and the Leverkusen goal, the goals in Paris, the near perfect game against Brazil in 06 and Euro 2000. He was in fact very patchy and ornery for large portions of his career.


1. He was never ever ever the best player in the world over a full season the way Ronaldinho or Kaka or Figo were. Just simply never. Zidane could be incredible but he was never incredibly consistent by even the standards of say Figo or Kaka let alone Messi or Ronaldo. Did he have the talent? Of course! Did he step up in big games? Yes. Was he glorious to watch? You can't imagine!

To give an example of Zidane tasked with leading in a season – look no further than In 98-99. Del Piero had his big knee injury and spent months out. That ended phase one of his career. He was never the same again.

Zidane became main man and Juve finished 7th. 16 points off Milan. Juve were reigning champs and finished 20 points behind their 97-98 total. Zidane was consistently underwhelming that year. He scored 2 goals in 40 and (I think he got either 2 or no assists). Actually one of his better games was the Roy Keane game in Turin which of course they lost.

Assuming we think numbers are somewhat significant for attackers let alone such talents like Zizou those numbers are shocking. Those are Lingard numbers. He played that year with a young pre-Arsenal Thierry Henry and Pippo Inzaghi. Now Inzaghi still scored goals that year but no one could make up for Del Piero's and part of that was on Zidane's form. Juve actually scored some 25 goals less than the previous year even if their defence only conceded as many as AC Milan's (who won serie A that season).



2. A great peak means the someone who is always the best game in game out for a few seasons. Zidane had some great seasons but they were spread out over a decade not bunched up.

The other thing is Zidane dragging teams through tournaments:

1998: The fact is that Zidane did nothing in 1998 till the final. He was sent off in their second game against the mighty Saudi Arabia. Then he missed the final group game. Missed the 1-0 win over Paraguay. Did nought in a goalless draw v Italy that went to pens where he scored his and Albertini missed.
In the semi vs Croatia it was Thuram (of all people) who scored and Djorkaeff who set up one of the goals up for Thuram.
In the final of course we know what he did.

To compare: Pogba had a far superior world cup in 2018 where he legitimately probably was France's best midfielder and creative outlet while playing severely within himself in a deeper lying position and still contributing defensively.

Euro 2000: He was fantastic in Euro 2000. He had a good season building up to it also.

World Cup 2002: Missed the first two games through injury. Had a fairly good game v Denmark but France lost 2-0.

Euro 2004: Was decent. Scored two vs. England which always helps improve a player’s perception in the anglocentric media. Had a pretty underwhelming season coming into
it.

World Cup 2006: Was very good. The game vs Brazil was near perfection. A pretty rank season coming into it.

Zidane left Juve and he was seamlessly replaced by Pavel Nedved (who is genuinely underrated). Zidane at Madrid in the insane teams he played in finished:

1. A distant third behind Valencia and Deportivo la Coruna
2. Champion
3. A distant fourth
4. Second to Ronaldinho's Barca
5. Comprehensively outdone by Ronaldinho's Barca (He retired after this season and the world cup)

You can say a lot for Zidane's lack of league titles at Real. Makelele leaving for instance or mediocre managers like Camacho and Queiroz. But the fact is also that Zidane can and would go months without doing anything much. Plus he was a massive defensive liability which didn't matter when Jacquet got Karembu, Petit and Deschamps behind him in a short tournament but over a season it is much harder to justify.


Conclusion:

I am NOT saying Zidane was overrated. In fact his talent and technique cannot be rated highly enough. I loved him. He was a fantastic moments player. But he was not one you could lean on for a whole season. There were times where he simply COULD NOT BE arsed. In a sense he was the opposite of Thierry Henry who never a great player in big games but season in-season out he was far better than Zidane ever was.

(But Zidane also had big games where he was not that great.

In 1996 UEFA cup final he played the second leg as Bayern wiped the floor with Bourdeaux. Ok it was only Bourdeaux and it was Bayern after all.

In The 1997 final where he was marked out of the game by that titan of football Paul Lambert.

In 1998 final he started well but then Karembu and Redondo marked him out of the game as Madrid beat a ludicrously good Juventus side 1-0.

He played off the park by his replacement at Juve, Nedved when Juve beat Madrid 3-1 in 2003.)

Overall he was a great player. Probably didn’t do as much as he should have on a season by season basis. Great career. But he never had a so-called great peak that stretched over 2 or 3 seasons. Don’t get too carried away with the Balon D’or and so on. It’s indicative of nothing.

Ironically it is Bale who has resembled Zidane a lot. World record transfer. Obvious greatness. Great Euro performances. Often goes weeks and months not doing very much then goes and wins them the final in ridiculous style.

This is a good discussion to have. I think the analysis is deep but there are some fundamental mistakes which renders it very light. Drawing conclusions from the fact that Nedved seamlessly fitted into the Juve team after him is illogical. Showing league finishes is very misleading unless Zidane was a player-owner-manager or something. These things are white noise so I will ignore them and focus on the crux of the matter and the real “myth”:

Zidane was a tank that could move like a ballerina. Zidane could play every single role in midfield. Zidane could start attacks deep from midfield or finish them deep upfront. Go look at Keane talking about Zidane, what did he highlight when he said he was the best player he had faced? He said he was nasty. As in tough as nails. Massive frame. And really really physical. Zidane was an all round midfielder unlike Del Piero, Kaka, Ronaldinho. See this is the mistake people make with Zidane. They expect him to have Kaka numbers or influence the game upfront like Del Piero did every game. Zidane was the ultimate midfielder because he was impactful in every aspect. Defending, physical battles, headers, target man, nimble dribbler, long range passer, tiki taka passer etc. This is no hyperbole. Zidane was the most complete midfielder of his time and one of the most complete players of all time. You can’t just look at the numbers for someone like that.

My theory is that Zidane will go on to become the most misunderstood player we have seen as time passes further and xG fanatics take over. Simply because he is not a player you can pin down on an Excel sheet.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Football was so ridiculously unbalanced prior to the 90s that I don't even think you can compare the WCs Pele,Fontaine and others played in with the current cup competitions.

No one is going to score 13 goals at a WC or 9 goals in 5 Euro games anymore. It's just not happening but that doesn't mean these players were head and shoulders better than anyone has been in the past 20 years.

What suddenly happened in the 90s to correct this lack of balance?

I can understand the 13 goals at a world cup thing as that happened during the latter days of a very attacking era when football was still to go through some key tactical revolutions, but platini's goalscoring feat should not be out of reach for great players in strong teams. Especially considering when he did it the Euro was a smaller competition with a lot of the weaker sides already out in qualifying, whereas now it's significantly expanded with some notably weaker/out of form teams still able to make it.

 

[Ish]

He didn't had an underwhelming league career though, his individual performances ranged between very good to great during that period of time. The issue is more that some of the younger football followers seem to think that Juventus or Real Madrid were like today far above their competition but it wasnt the case in the 90s-early 2000s, we are talking about a time where Parma had the likes of Thuram, Cannavaro and Crespo. Lazio had Nedved, Boksic and Nesta. While Milan and Inter were full of superstars.

That and the fact that just about every argument for attackers is reduced to G + A stats these days (which Messi/Ronaldo have skewed to a large extent).

 

[SCP]

What suddenly happened in the 90s to correct this lack of balance?

I can understand the 13 goals at a world cup thing as that happened during the latter days of a very attacking era, but platini's goalscoring feat should not be out of reach for great players in strong teams. Especially considering when he did it the Euro was a smaller competition with a lot of the weaker sides already out in qualifying, whereas now it's significantly expanded with some notably weaker/out of form teams still able to make it.

You mean Platini at Euro 1984 ? Possibly the best individual performance of a player at a European Championship, he never reached nothing close to that level for France in 3 World Cups, at least I cannot remember nothing close to that level at the Euros, well if we talk about World Cups a small guy from Argentina with the number 10 possibly was even more influential...

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

You mean Platini at Euro 1984 ? Possibly the best individual performance of a player at a European Championship, he never reached nothing close to that level for France in 3 World Cups, at least I cannot remember nothing close to that level at the Euros, well if we talk about World Cups a small guy from Argentina with the number 10 possibly was even more influential...

Yeah, his euro 84. That poster was saying something like that couldn't happen nowadays, but the way i see it there is actually a greater opportunity for a player to do that now due to the expanded tournament. the Euro in the 80s had very few easier games which makes it even more impressive what Platini did.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Football was so ridiculously unbalanced prior to the 90s that I don't even think you can compare the WCs Pele,Fontaine and others played in with the current cup competitions.

No one is going to score 13 goals at a WC or 9 goals in 5 Euro games anymore. It's just not happening but that doesn't mean these players were head and shoulders better than anyone has been in the past 20 years.

Morata with Ronaldo or Lewandowski composure in front of goal really could have got 9 goals in this Euros. Spain apparently had 18 xG in this tournament and Morata’s finishing was awful, so just imagine a top striker with that service.

Ronaldo himself got 5 in 4 games here and he’s past his peak. He underperformed in tournaments relative to his club form for most of his peak, if he had replicated that form with an easy draw then 8 or 9 goals was achievable. There’s always someone who will come around that will do it.

 

[NasirTimothy]

You were more impressed by his games in 1958? Did you see all the games, have you seen the games since, did they even film all of them back then? I don’t remember much of the last World Cup, but you remember foundly over 60 years back in time - that is highly impressive. If I ran a casino in Las Vegas, I’d never let you in.

Of the 1958 games, the semi final (Pele hat-trick) and the final (Pele brace) are easily accessible online. All of the 1970 games are available and anyone who likes football even a little bit should watch them. A good place to start would be Brazil v England, which also demonstrates how good England were at that time.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Football was so ridiculously unbalanced prior to the 90s that I don't even think you can compare the WCs Pele,Fontaine and others played in with the current cup competitions.

No one is going to score 13 goals at a WC or 9 goals in 5 Euro games anymore. It's just not happening but that doesn't mean these players were head and shoulders better than anyone has been in the past 20 years.

Weird arbitrary line drawn there. Football in the 80s was so different from the 90s for…..what reason exactly?

 

[NasirTimothy]

I think that kind of analysis of Zidane from Haddock(outside some of the looks at particular big game performances )would be a lot more compelling if he was a forward. I can easily see a similar take being done on Iniesta in a few decades...not focused on inconsistency so much perhaps, but it'll be that he had a low output for an attacking midfielder/playmaker in such dominant teams.

No great midfield playmaker that scores 5-10 league goals a season can carry teams to titles without significant help. Pointing out that Zidane never really did that (i'm not sure that there is a myth that he did in the first place, is it no just restricted to the NT tournaments?) is not very interesting to me, it's just footballing common sense. That he was in big teams that didn't win the league or very occasionally had an outright bad season like Juve 98/99 isn't necessarily an indicator of obvious personal inconsistency either. From the many games of zidane i've watched, my impression was that he only became a player that could be labelled inconsistent as one of his main traits in his last 2 or 3 seasons at Real Madrid. Unless you're looking at him from the view of a goalscorer/direct decider of matches and not a midfield playmaker and orchestrator.

This is so commonly said about Zidane and I don’t get it. I agree with you, I can recall him having a collection of very poor games toward the end at Madrid, but before that he was mostly very good in my memory, for club and country. I really do think it’s a lot to do with that fact that he didn’t score very many goals.

 

[tjb]

This is so commonly said about Zidane and I don’t get it. I agree with you, I can recall him having a collection of very poor games toward the end at Madrid, but before that he was mostly very good in my memory, for club and country. I really do think it’s a lot to do with that fact that he didn’t score very many goals.

Tbh I see where the poster is coming from, particularly the idea of him carrying France. Henry was decent in big games and I think was really underrated due to the status of Arsenal in Europe at the time. It's a bit like how some of City's players are treated in the premier league when being remembered. If Henry did what he did at United or Liverpool, I believe he would have won at least 2 ballon d'ors.

Back to Zidane, I don't think any one of Kaka, Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho, Totti etc were that consistent. Messi and Ronaldo being as consistent performance wise as they were has made people look at the past and future of football a little differently. It's more of a testament to how great and consistent they have been, than how lacking others were. Zidane was great he had a great peak and lasted at the top of the game for a decent period. But like the tennis trio, dominance like this has not existed in football since Pele and expecting it from there players in past generations or future stars is pretty unreasonable.

 

[Dave Smith]

Hard to see past Platini '84 in the post-70 era. 8 goals in 6 matches as a CM in a competition that only allowed the best 8 of Europe to compete. If not him then Maradona in '86.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yeah, his euro 84. That poster was saying something like that couldn't happen nowadays, but the way i see it there is actually a greater opportunity for a player to do that now due to the expanded tournament. the Euro in the 80s had very few easier games which makes it even more impressive what Platini did.

Maybe it’s an age thing but a lot of games tended to be back and too and more attack minded even when leading. Maybe a tendency in modern intl football to be more cautious and to hold leads until forced out now… which is why I thought Italys first game in these Euros was so refreshing.

that said, I still think you’d struggle to match what he did and more importantly, in the style he did it.

still my biggest non United footballing hero. Genius.

Hard to see past Platini '84 in the post-70 era. 8 goals in 6 matches as a CM in a competition that only allowed the best 8 of Europe to compete. If not him then Maradona in '86.

9

 

[Rozay]

Gervinho, Emirates Cup 2011.

 

[Dave Smith]

Gervinho, Emirates Cup 2011.

 

[DWelbz19]

Gervinho, Emirates Cup 2011.

Jack Wilshere, that one half vs Barcelona.

 

[TheLord]

Anyone who watched Maradona in the ‘80s wouldn’t think of any other name.

 

[Cascarino]

Gervinho, Emirates Cup 2011.

I used to do the local dream teams, and I convinced all my mates to put him in, he was gonna be a star. Sent off in his first fecking game

 

[Ishdalar]

Probably comes from the people who use stats like goals and assists to judge players. If it wasn’t for Messi and Ronaldo completely decimating goal records it wouldn’t be an issue.

No, it comes from people bored with his glorification for the 98 WC win and his 06 run.

In 98 he missed 2 and a half games, played "meh" games in QF and SF, but he's lauded as the reason France won the whole thing because he scored from 2 corners in the final.
In 2006 he had some good or even great games, but his role on that team... let's say I don't remember any #10 who had the service he had around that year, Ribery had great games that World Cup, he was cutting defenses like a hot knife through butter, Henry was probably the best striker in the world, Makelele and Vieira behind him, basically the 2 best DM's of that era, and Malouda emptying himself and being the perfect supporting player for the 5 guys surrounding him.

I know it was his last tournament and he was 34 y/o, but put Maradona, Messi, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Baggio, Totti, Del Piero or any player of that caliber in that spot and he probably wouldn't deliver much less than Zidane.

Zidane had the 2000 EC where he was head and shoulders above everyone else, just like Iniesta in 2012 or Xavi in 2008, yet no one uses that to put them on the heights Zidane has been situated. When it comes to World Cups his peak wasn't even close to players that have performed better than him in the last 30 years over a whole tournament run, 98' Suker, 18' Modric, 10' Forlan, 02' Ronaldo and Rivaldo, 14' Mascherano and Messi, 06' Cannavaro, 10' Sneijder or 14' Robben) as examples.

 

[B20]

Zidane was nothing special in the 98 world cup.

Euro 2000 was one of the best tournament performances I have ever seen though. He was imperious.

 

[DixieDean]

Peter Crouch?

 

[Tomuś]

Hard to look past Andy Carroll for Newcastle in 10/11 season. 11 goals in 19 games for a player without an ounce of talent.

 

[NasirTimothy]

No, it comes from people bored with his glorification for the 98 WC win and his 06 run.

In 98 he missed 2 and a half games, played "meh" games in QF and SF, but he's lauded as the reason France won the whole thing because he scored from 2 corners in the final.
In 2006 he had some good or even great games, but his role on that team... let's say I don't remember any #10 who had the service he had around that year, Ribery had great games that World Cup, he was cutting defenses like a hot knife through butter, Henry was probably the best striker in the world, Makelele and Vieira behind him, basically the 2 best DM's of that era, and Malouda emptying himself and being the perfect supporting player for the 5 guys surrounding him.

I know it was his last tournament and he was 34 y/o, but put Maradona, Messi, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Baggio, Totti, Del Piero or any player of that caliber in that spot and he probably wouldn't deliver much less than Zidane.

Zidane had the 2000 EC where he was head and shoulders above everyone else, just like Iniesta in 2012 or Xavi in 2008, yet no one uses that to put them on the heights Zidane has been situated. When it comes to World Cups his peak wasn't even close to players that have performed better than him in the last 30 years over a whole tournament run, 98' Suker, 18' Modric, 10' Forlan, 02' Ronaldo and Rivaldo, 14' Mascherano and Messi, 06' Cannavaro, 10' Sneijder or 14' Robben) as examples.

Looks like Emmanuel Petit has joined the forum…..

 

[RooneyLegend]

1 Maradona 86
2 Platini 84
3 Zidane 00
4 Ronaldo 98
5 Van Basten 88

 

[Matt007a]

For a single cup it’s hard to look past Maradona in 86. I know the Argentina team were better than a lot of people seem to remember but there’s still no doubt that without him they’d have been no where close to winning it.

In terms of peak anywhere, Messi in 2012 is certainly the best I’ve ever seen. 91 goals in a year is something we might not see again in our lifetime. He scored every type of goal as well. Tap-ins, free-kicks, insane solo efforts and a few belters from 20-25 yards. Add to that his ability to dribble past 3-4 people and assist someone else, his goal contributions over those 12 months must have been well over 100.

 

[Cal?]

Club: Ronaldo 16/17 CL
Country: Maradona 86 WC

Both by some distance

 

[Bogdannn]

Ronaldo peaked the highest from 96 to around 99. He was the perfect footballer, could do it all.

Maradona and Ronaldinho are next.

 

[Bogdannn]

Zidane is the biggest myth in modern football.

Completely agree.

I've heard this mentioned a couple of times recently, where is it coming from? Incredible player who was widely regarded as the best in teams that won everything.
Where's the myth?

Apart from Euro 2000, he did not have a single tournament where he played well throughtout.
In the 98 World Cup, he did nothing apart from those 2 headers in the final.
In 2006, he had the game against Brazil.
With Juve, he failed in big finals and couldn't guide them to titles after Del Piero got his major injury (he was never the same after that).
With Real, he didn't win too much either.
He was very inconsistent throughout his career, had too many games where he did not show up.

Zidane is a myth ? Pretty sure he was the main man in every team that won every trophy worth winning

He was not.

Was Zidane that good in the France 98 tournament or did the 2 goals in the final massively inflate how good he was overall? Thought he carried them more in 2006

He was red carded in the group stage and pretty much didn't do anything up until the final. France didn't need him to get to that final.

Zidane didn't really carry France in 2006, the team was built around Vieira, Henry, Thuram and Zidane. In 1998 the team was built to defend deep and give the ball to Zidane, he was everything for that team.

He was NOTHING for that team since they got to the final without him doing anything.
France played two games without him, against Paraguay and Denmark, after he was red carded. France won both of those games.
In the next two games, against Italy and Croatia, Zidane was invisible. France won both of those games.
Basically France with or without Zidane achieved virtually identical results:
- 2 goals scored and 1 goal conceded in the 2 games that Zidane did play;
- 3 goals scored and 1 goal conceded in the 2 games that Zidane did not play.

Not sure what the OP meant but for me, his contributions towards the '98 world cup win are always exaggerated.

That's cause most haven't actually seen him play in 98, and only go by results or highlights reels.

 

[Bogdannn]

Brilliant post Haddock.

Brilliant post! I was around all through Zidane’s time and agree with everything you’ve so eloquently said.

Me too. Too many people praise him due to highlights reels and the fact that he was elegant. They forget how inconsistent he was and how he rarely showed up in big matches.

I think that kind of analysis of Zidane from Haddock(outside some of the looks at particular big game performances )would be a lot more compelling if he was a forward. I can easily see a similar take being done on Iniesta in a few decades...not focused on inconsistency so much perhaps, but it'll be that he had a low output for an attacking midfielder/playmaker in such dominant teams.

No great midfield playmaker that scores 5-10 league goals a season can carry teams to titles without significant help. Pointing out that Zidane never really did that (i'm not sure that there is a myth that he did in the first place, is it no just restricted to the NT tournaments?) is not very interesting to me, it's just footballing common sense. That he was in big teams that didn't win the league or very occasionally had an outright bad season like Juve 98/99 isn't necessarily an indicator of obvious personal inconsistency either. From the many games of zidane i've watched, my impression was that he only became a player that could be labelled inconsistent as one of his main traits in his last 2 or 3 seasons at Real Madrid. Unless you're looking at him from the view of a goalscorer/direct decider of matches and not a midfield playmaker and orchestrator.

His analysis is spot on. It was Zidane's job to decide matches, not so much through goals, but through assists and chances created. And there are a lot of midfielders that surpass him from this point of view.

this isn’t true. Zidane could give consistent 7/10 performances In his sleep, the issue with that is that he had so many 9/10 performances that those became the expected norm and thus his 7/10 performances felt more like 5/10.

Very rarely he gave 9/10 performances. And no, he could not give 7/10 performances that often. Most were 5/10.

the guy is one of the best players ever and the bashing of him needs to stop.

No he isn't, he's massively overrated.

I'd agree with @Cutch though that he had a better tournament in 2006.
As you say, the issue was it always seemed he had an extra gear and rarely used it. He also had a temper. The difference to his legacy is how he timed them.
In 1998 he got red carded in the last group game, was sorely missed against Paraguay, and only really went up that extra gear in the Final.
In 2006 he was majestic, displayed his extra gear consistently, but blew his top off in the Final.
Platini 84 beats either easily anyway.

Platini sure does, he's the best French player of all time.

Zidane at Euro 2000 was close to unplayable. In 2006 he was poor/suspended in the group stage then really lifted in the knock out stages.

Platini was far better in 84 than Zidane in 00.

 

[snk123]

Charlie Adam. At one point, his corners were worth around 10m alone.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

The mental gymnastics to disregard Zidane in this thread are obscene.

 

[Spaghetti]

Xavi in 2010/11, ran the midfield and key player in teams that won absolutely everything, world cup, champions league, league, pretty much every major trophy available in this period.

Pretty much impossible to have a better couple of years as footballer than that.

As we've seen since, an irreplaceable player.

He wasn’t even the best player in the team. Not even close.

Very good player of course, but Messi was streets ahead.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

The real issue with zidane wasn't his quality, it was him ripping off Robert Prosinecki's style, but adding in occasional stepovers. It's hard to forgive aesthetic vulgarity like that.

 

[Fortitude]

Platini's '84 clearly doesn't have the exposure so it's bypassed far too often in threads like these.

 

[PoTMS]

Rooney - Euro 2004

 

[FattyFooty]

1. C.Ronaldos Champions league knockout stage.

Noone has never come close to that. I doubt anyone will either.

2. Maradonna 86. That was insane.

Thats the 2 that really stand out to me.

Ill also mention Messis 91 goal in 1 year.

 

[harms]

Charlie Adam. At one point, his corners were worth around 10m alone.

The issue is that when you count the player himself as well, that price only goes down

 

[FattyFooty]

Ok here's a thought out detailed response. Please don’t TL;DR.

The legend of Zidane is that he was the mythical Maghreb who frequently dragged his team through tournaments and seasons sparkling goldust on the pitch every time he entered it. But the aura comes from a handful of CL games and the Leverkusen goal, the goals in Paris, the near perfect game against Brazil in 06 and Euro 2000. He was in fact very patchy and ornery for large portions of his career.


1. He was never ever ever the best player in the world over a full season the way Ronaldinho or Kaka or Figo were. Just simply never. Zidane could be incredible but he was never incredibly consistent by even the standards of say Figo or Kaka let alone Messi or Ronaldo. Did he have the talent? Of course! Did he step up in big games? Yes. Was he glorious to watch? You can't imagine!

To give an example of Zidane tasked with leading in a season – look no further than In 98-99. Del Piero had his big knee injury and spent months out. That ended phase one of his career. He was never the same again.

Zidane became main man and Juve finished 7th. 16 points off Milan. Juve were reigning champs and finished 20 points behind their 97-98 total. Zidane was consistently underwhelming that year. He scored 2 goals in 40 and (I think he got either 2 or no assists). Actually one of his better games was the Roy Keane game in Turin which of course they lost.

Assuming we think numbers are somewhat significant for attackers let alone such talents like Zizou those numbers are shocking. Those are Lingard numbers. He played that year with a young pre-Arsenal Thierry Henry and Pippo Inzaghi. Now Inzaghi still scored goals that year but no one could make up for Del Piero's and part of that was on Zidane's form. Juve actually scored some 25 goals less than the previous year even if their defence only conceded as many as AC Milan's (who won serie A that season).



2. A great peak means the someone who is always the best game in game out for a few seasons. Zidane had some great seasons but they were spread out over a decade not bunched up.

The other thing is Zidane dragging teams through tournaments:

1998: The fact is that Zidane did nothing in 1998 till the final. He was sent off in their second game against the mighty Saudi Arabia. Then he missed the final group game. Missed the 1-0 win over Paraguay. Did nought in a goalless draw v Italy that went to pens where he scored his and Albertini missed.
In the semi vs Croatia it was Thuram (of all people) who scored and Djorkaeff who set up one of the goals up for Thuram.
In the final of course we know what he did.

To compare: Pogba had a far superior world cup in 2018 where he legitimately probably was France's best midfielder and creative outlet while playing severely within himself in a deeper lying position and still contributing defensively.

Euro 2000: He was fantastic in Euro 2000. He had a good season building up to it also.

World Cup 2002: Missed the first two games through injury. Had a fairly good game v Denmark but France lost 2-0.

Euro 2004: Was decent. Scored two vs. England which always helps improve a player’s perception in the anglocentric media. Had a pretty underwhelming season coming into
it.

World Cup 2006: Was very good. The game vs Brazil was near perfection. A pretty rank season coming into it.

Zidane left Juve and he was seamlessly replaced by Pavel Nedved (who is genuinely underrated). Zidane at Madrid in the insane teams he played in finished:

1. A distant third behind Valencia and Deportivo la Coruna
2. Champion
3. A distant fourth
4. Second to Ronaldinho's Barca
5. Comprehensively outdone by Ronaldinho's Barca (He retired after this season and the world cup)

You can say a lot for Zidane's lack of league titles at Real. Makelele leaving for instance or mediocre managers like Camacho and Queiroz. But the fact is also that Zidane can and would go months without doing anything much. Plus he was a massive defensive liability which didn't matter when Jacquet got Karembu, Petit and Deschamps behind him in a short tournament but over a season it is much harder to justify.


Conclusion:

I am NOT saying Zidane was overrated. In fact his talent and technique cannot be rated highly enough. I loved him. He was a fantastic moments player. But he was not one you could lean on for a whole season. There were times where he simply COULD NOT BE arsed. In a sense he was the opposite of Thierry Henry who never a great player in big games but season in-season out he was far better than Zidane ever was.

(But Zidane also had big games where he was not that great.

In 1996 UEFA cup final he played the second leg as Bayern wiped the floor with Bourdeaux. Ok it was only Bourdeaux and it was Bayern after all.

In The 1997 final where he was marked out of the game by that titan of football Paul Lambert.

In 1998 final he started well but then Karembu and Redondo marked him out of the game as Madrid beat a ludicrously good Juventus side 1-0.

He played off the park by his replacement at Juve, Nedved when Juve beat Madrid 3-1 in 2003.)

Overall he was a great player. Probably didn’t do as much as he should have on a season by season basis. Great career. But he never had a so-called great peak that stretched over 2 or 3 seasons. Don’t get too carried away with the Balon D’or and so on. It’s indicative of nothing.

Ironically it is Bale who has resembled Zidane a lot. World record transfer. Obvious greatness. Great Euro performances. Often goes weeks and months not doing very much then goes and wins them the final in ridiculous style.

I always had Zidane as one of the midfield GOATs.

This post made me a bit insecure about my previous feelings towards him.

 

[Dave Smith]

Hard to look past Andy Carroll for Newcastle in 10/11 season. 11 goals in 19 games for a player without an ounce of talent.

I don't know, he has a nice ponytail.

 

[GatoLoco]

As an anecdote, this is what Floper thought of the Galacticos (Zidane included) when he left after his first stage at Madrid

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[Old Ma Crow]

Georgie Best?