Van Gaal. He had implemented a style. Just needed a similar coach, slightly more aggressive, to follow him.
Which post-Fergie manager, given 5 years in charge, would have done the best?
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The brave warrior who took on suits while flirting with PSG to get big wages from those suitsShhhhh we don't want facts when discussing the special one. If you can't see he is special you just don't know football
And it was.
All the stats indicate we've overperformed by a huge margin that season, mostly due to De Gea's heroics.
Time heals all wounds it seems.
Someone needs to dig up all those old Jose quotes about Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Shaw, etc... "His body, my brain"... "Why always Lukaku"...
He ruined our promising attacking youngsters, and our dressing room rot started with all his comments and leaks to the media. Jesus he'd have burned this place down to the ground had he been given an extra 2 months, let alone 2 years.
Someone needs to dig up all those old Jose quotes about Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Shaw, etc... "His body, my brain"... "Why always Lukaku"...
He ruined our promising attacking youngsters, and our dressing room rot started with all his comments and leaks to the media. Jesus he'd have burned this place down to the ground had he been given an extra 2 months, let alone 2 years.
Van Gaal by a long shot.
We actually looked like a team with an identity and as far as I remember we competed very well with the other top clubs.
We actually looked like a team with an identity and as far as I remember we competed very well with the other top clubs.
It comes down to a difference of virtue in the sense of the word arete as to why each of us watch football and you're certainly entitled to believe that "everything is else -- that is, the lifting of trophies -- is secondary or means to an end".
But most of us don't watch football matches throughout the season as "secondary" to the trophy celebration itself. Most of us watch football to witness the spectacle of the competition itself in the hope of seeing excellence on the pitch, which can take the form of outstanding defending and counterattacking or any number of tactics which can lead to glorious trophy hauls. Excellence can even lead to coming in second as Liverpool did this year in the PL and in the CL. Whatever excellence delivers, trophies or no trophies, it is excellence or at least the effort to attain excellence that makes football (or sports in general, actually) worth our bother. If all we had were trophy presentations without excellence preceding it, the trophy presentation would be a waste of our time.
What we can't allow United to become, which it was on the verge of becoming under Van Gaal and Mourinho, is a squad that robs the game of all joy. It was passive in defense and passive in attack under Louis and Jose, squeezing the life out of the game in order to capitalize on the few chances we might create. I don't have the stats in front of me to back it up but we suffered from unwatchable football for the five seasons or whatever it was Van Gaal and Mourinho were manager, despite having a fairly decent roster of talent.
Van Gaal and Mourinho did indeed bring us three trophies -- which you argue is "the most important thing" and everything else being "secondary" -- but your claim is actually disproved by the very fact that what we remember about those years in the wilderness isn't those three glorious trophies but the dour football that we witnessed match after match.
True, De Gea was the big reason for our good defensive record and 2nd place finish.
So many unread replies since this was posted. Anyway, bar Rojo and Valdes, everyone on that list was seen as potentially great signings when we made them.LvG the man who signed Di Maria, Falcao, Rojo, Valdes, Martial, Schneiderlind, Schweinsteiger, Depay, Darmian.
Really?
He's the biggest reason we are in this mess.
LVG. Probably. The options aren't great, but we should have got CL in his final season, and with a proper striker and some better more intelligent signings we might have done ok.
Another full season of Jose and I'd likely have just stopped watching football, it was that miserable under him.
Another full season of Jose and I'd likely have just stopped watching football, it was that miserable under him.
Jose. However you need to allow his weird signings to be made. Willian, Perisic, etc.
I've subconsciously erased Moyes season from memory.
José brought a toxicity that still remains till this day, something that wasn't really in the fanbase and playing staff prior.
I could watch football for ages, but under Van gaal it became like watching golf (booorriing), plus the result weren't great either.
Ole football was actually better but still behind the best and he didn't win....not good enough.
The outcome of all their tenure left few positives, if any of them lasted five years it would be accepting mediocrity i.e the new Arsenal.
José brought a toxicity that still remains till this day, something that wasn't really in the fanbase and playing staff prior.
I could watch football for ages, but under Van gaal it became like watching golf (booorriing), plus the result weren't great either.
Ole football was actually better but still behind the best and he didn't win....not good enough.
The outcome of all their tenure left few positives, if any of them lasted five years it would be accepting mediocrity i.e the new Arsenal.
Docherty.
I'm sure most terrible transfers in history can be seen as potentially great. It's the fact that they're actually terrible that matters.
Jose with the players he wanted would've done 'something'. Winning the league, probably not.
It would have left a mess for the next manager after the inevitable year 3 meltdown but I reckon 2018/19 could've been a much better campaign had things gone his way that summer. I'd love to know the ins and outs of the Fred transfer and if he was Jose's guy.
The thing with Jose is the players he wanted out. They are players the fans have been complaining about pretty much ever since, bar Luke Shaw up until last summer.
I'd also love to know the ins and outs of the players we signed under LVG. He comes across as a methodical character, but when you review who we signed at the time, it was very scattergun and completely out of sync with the way he set the team up. Despite every signing made during his tenure, he remained heavily reliant on Smalling, Carrick, Mata and Rooney from previous regimes, even Fellaini to some extent.
It would have left a mess for the next manager after the inevitable year 3 meltdown but I reckon 2018/19 could've been a much better campaign had things gone his way that summer. I'd love to know the ins and outs of the Fred transfer and if he was Jose's guy.
The thing with Jose is the players he wanted out. They are players the fans have been complaining about pretty much ever since, bar Luke Shaw up until last summer.
I'd also love to know the ins and outs of the players we signed under LVG. He comes across as a methodical character, but when you review who we signed at the time, it was very scattergun and completely out of sync with the way he set the team up. Despite every signing made during his tenure, he remained heavily reliant on Smalling, Carrick, Mata and Rooney from previous regimes, even Fellaini to some extent.
True.
Are you saying those players were good when we bought them, and then LVG didn't utilise them properly and, as a result, became terrible signings in hindsight?
Jose. Had Jose had stayed 5 years it would‘ve meant he‘d got what he wanted, therefore very likely he’d have won more trophies, possibly a league title.
1. Solskjær - He was the one with the longest streak of continual improvement, he had the highest standing in the dressing room even when losing it, and he h was the ebat at working with all sides of the club. He also did the most impressive job of staving off the constant hyper-criticism that follows a media clickmagnet and a spoilt fan base. If the club had backed him ruthlessly through one and a half season more, I’ve no doubt we’d be sniffing around the second place again after five seasons, most likely one of our endless SF runs would cash in on a trophy or two.
2. Van Gaal - He knew what he was doing and did it. Another three seasons, we’d probably be more or less in the same place, maybe a notch higher. Which means fourth, maybe another lucky domestic cup, but nothing much in the European cups.
3. Moyes - Not a bad coach, but a very bad fit for a club like United. If he could get his players and work in peace, there’s no reason to think he couldn’t have us top five to six after five years. However, he’d never be able to work in peace at Utd. I imagine lower half even as a possibility if he had stayed on, but more likely upper mid table.
4. Rangnik - hard to tell. He is not at all clueless, and if he was working long term with preseasons and his own players and a less makeshift coaching staff, we’d see something completely different. However, I have my doubts how his vulnerable ego and mediocre communication skills would have fared over time at a club this huge, and he’s known to run out of steam in the manager/head coach role after a while.
5. Mourinho - No one knows how a fifth season of Mourinho looks like, and there’s a reason for it. Despite him having the two objectively best tournament results for us since Fergie, I was thoroughly despondent a week into his third season. To more seasons of that, I fear for the sanity of most employees at the club. Relegation is not out of the question.
6. Carrick - The best point average of any United manager, particularily considering the opposition. (66% away games, 7/9 points from all top 18 clubs in the whole of Europe, that’s probably historical …). In hindsight, I’d have preferred to see him get the rest of the season. Still, the play in itself didn’t improve much in my eyes, despite players pulling themselves together, focus on the basics, and him being part of the coaching set up already. Giving him five years would be a gamble that would make hiring Solskjær look like a pensioners investment scheme in comparison.
7. Giggs - this sounds silly, but seeing that documentary convinced me he is way to simplistic and neurotic to have any chance at a complex emotion machine like Man United. Wales was perfect for him. Too bad he wouldn’t be in a job anywhere after five seasons with the way he treats other human beings in a relationship.
2. Van Gaal - He knew what he was doing and did it. Another three seasons, we’d probably be more or less in the same place, maybe a notch higher. Which means fourth, maybe another lucky domestic cup, but nothing much in the European cups.
3. Moyes - Not a bad coach, but a very bad fit for a club like United. If he could get his players and work in peace, there’s no reason to think he couldn’t have us top five to six after five years. However, he’d never be able to work in peace at Utd. I imagine lower half even as a possibility if he had stayed on, but more likely upper mid table.
4. Rangnik - hard to tell. He is not at all clueless, and if he was working long term with preseasons and his own players and a less makeshift coaching staff, we’d see something completely different. However, I have my doubts how his vulnerable ego and mediocre communication skills would have fared over time at a club this huge, and he’s known to run out of steam in the manager/head coach role after a while.
5. Mourinho - No one knows how a fifth season of Mourinho looks like, and there’s a reason for it. Despite him having the two objectively best tournament results for us since Fergie, I was thoroughly despondent a week into his third season. To more seasons of that, I fear for the sanity of most employees at the club. Relegation is not out of the question.
6. Carrick - The best point average of any United manager, particularily considering the opposition. (66% away games, 7/9 points from all top 18 clubs in the whole of Europe, that’s probably historical …). In hindsight, I’d have preferred to see him get the rest of the season. Still, the play in itself didn’t improve much in my eyes, despite players pulling themselves together, focus on the basics, and him being part of the coaching set up already. Giving him five years would be a gamble that would make hiring Solskjær look like a pensioners investment scheme in comparison.
7. Giggs - this sounds silly, but seeing that documentary convinced me he is way to simplistic and neurotic to have any chance at a complex emotion machine like Man United. Wales was perfect for him. Too bad he wouldn’t be in a job anywhere after five seasons with the way he treats other human beings in a relationship.
Many of them were certainly crowdpleasers at the time. Whether they were bad signings in the sense that they were on the decline or ill-suited for the PL, or he simply couldn't use them properly, either way it doesn't reflect well on LVG.
Van Gaal. Only time we’ve seen us develop a style of play but recruitment failed awfully - even so won a cup, back in top four and never got completely outplayed/battered which became the norm under later mangers.
Sorry, both names flash into my mind but I have the opposite conditions.
Van Gaal is a good and experienced manager, but his downfall was on recruitment. If we had a good technical director working beside him on recruitment, and they were able to communicate and support each other, which is of course a great challenge considering all the egos. But if they do, then higher calibre players would have been recruited instead of Schnerderlin, Darmain. One of Blind - Rojo would be replaced with a proper CB. The fact that we are still struggling in the league, is because we replace them with AWB, Maguire, Fred.
You can't say Mourinho was not given control, unless you believe he has absolutely no say on the recruitment of Sanchez, Pogba. The board did back him on a string of expensive players, but patience has a limit. Beside, which club did Mourinho stay on for more than 5 seasons...
LVG - the best coach, should have stayed longer
Jose - the best manager but felt he was making too many enemies
Ragnick - not a star but he knew the basics
Moyes - would have cemented us as also rans
Ole - out of his depth, could have seen us in relegation spots
Jose - the best manager but felt he was making too many enemies
Ragnick - not a star but he knew the basics
Moyes - would have cemented us as also rans
Ole - out of his depth, could have seen us in relegation spots
None simply because United's main issue isn't the manager but the fact that we lack football knowledge at board level. That's were the real issue lie. Rangnick might have stood a chance if we signed him as soon as SAF retired but certainly not now and as a temporary manager
And none worked out well. And that's on the manager.
I reckon Carrick could've done an Ole (the first bit) for sure.
It's not disproven. The 3 trophies Mourinho and LVG are mostly minor trophies. If either of them won the league or CL in those 5 years they would have been more memorable regardless of the style of play they played.
And all this talk about "excellence" collapses if that team failed to documney their style of play with trophies in the long run. They wouldn't be remembered more than the winners no matter how much we talk about it.
You play the style of play that you believe will bring you success, whether it's offensive or defensive one, is another question.
LVG I guess. They usually started quite well but then...
This is easy.
Jose Mourinho.
Some people write LVG - the football we played was abysmal and in his 2nd season, after he had the team playing exactly as he wanted, we finished 5th.
The worst thing was the LVG claimed that his ultra-defensive brand of football was "attacking". I have no idea what he was thinking. Aiming to win game 1-0 won't win you trophies in the EPL - MCFC and LFC have demonstrated this.
Jose Mourinho.
Some people write LVG - the football we played was abysmal and in his 2nd season, after he had the team playing exactly as he wanted, we finished 5th.
The worst thing was the LVG claimed that his ultra-defensive brand of football was "attacking". I have no idea what he was thinking. Aiming to win game 1-0 won't win you trophies in the EPL - MCFC and LFC have demonstrated this.
I agree that the EL, EFL and FA Cups are minor trophies, but it was claimed earlier that trophies are the measuring stick by which we judge clubs. Now we’re saying only major trophies. Fine.
We actually do remember great sides that came up just short of major trophies. The Netherlands in the 1970s is one example. If you’re a Liverpool fan you honor the sides that came up just short against City.
Whether or not one agrees with the claim that we watch football not for the trophy presentation but the thrill of the journey that precedes it, the trophy presentation is only the icing on the cake. Whether the cake was made from brilliant defensive play, brilliant attacking or a brilliant combination of the two, what we don’t ever want is dreadful, soul-destroying play of the kind Van Gaal and Mourinho brought us.
Didn't we do this thread less than 6 months ago?