Who was worse, Moyes or Van Gaal?

[Vialli_92]

Van Gaal had a clear idea and way of playing and had results to back up his philosophy. It didn't work out for him but at least he had a game plan.

I dont know what Moyes was trying to do at United, he looked completely lost and out of idea's.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Win percentage yes(though that was marginal) but league finishes, defeats and points per game Moyes was worse.

Fair enough. Hadn't seen those stats. Only points and goals/game, where Van Gaal came out worse. Not so clearcut when you consider the other stats.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Moyes.

LVG at least came with a winning pedigree, it just didn't work out. And he won us an FA Cup and got us back into Europe, albeit momentarily and our first campaign back was a disaster. Moyes was just a perpetual loser in all aspects. And I haven't forgiven the cnut for giving Rooney that contract.

Which you could argue is still having a detrimental affect on us now.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@Pogue Mahone

I posted this in the other thread before I saw this one, in reply to your reply.

I don't buy this thinking in that the only pertinent consideration is how the big teams perform. Big teams might under perform but that doesn't mean that Leicester didn't over perform massively and weren't worthy winners. A perfect storm of management, system, team spirit and players peaking at the same time might not be repeatable but we shouldn't denigrate the quality of the team in that moment.

 

[Oneunited26]

By far Moyes, with VG our record against the big boys was outstanding, scalps at liverpool, city, arsenal, always has the best record against the big boys overall, and won us the FA Cup first time since 2004, which completes rooney's trophy mantle of winning every domestic trophy. Moyes was full out embarrassment, incompetence how he give rooney a contract so large its still a problem for us, we were getting destroyed by our rivals, and a joke against the most average of teams. VG never could overcome the bread and butter games, which cost us the title and his job, but he done enough which was not a complete disaster but he was just not good enough, Moyes has set us back a few years that we are still trying to undo the damage Moyes caused.

 

[Godfather]

Moyes.

Not only for what we produced on the pitch, as both of our managers underwhelmed in that aspect.

But also because of quite a few of his decisions. On the transfer market, in regards to Rooney, in regards to his coaching staff, in regards to his behavior in front of the camera. All important aspects of managing a team. He failed in all of them. The only positive I can think of was the development of Januzaj. Apart from that there is nothing positive about that time.

Different to van Gaal. He brought through a lot more youngsters and generally seemed to have a much better plan for us, although it didn't quite work out.

 

[sammsky1]

Err. Moyes.

It still astonishes me that he was ever appointed, especially as the manager after Sir Alex Ferguson, a succession plan that had been debated for 15 years.

I also find it hard to stomach that he is now forever part of our alumni and etched into our history; that he is somehow now qualified to have an opinion on our club.

 

[prath92]

The City loss wasn't even the worst. Didn't we get battered 5-1 by Pool & Suarez or something?

At least LvG usually bet Pool and City in the league.

this was us vs top 6 clubs of that season (from memory could be wrong)

City
1-4(A) 0-3(H)

Liverpool
0-1(H) 0-3(A)

Chelsea
0-0(H) 1-3(A)

Arsenal
1-0(H) 1-1(A)

Everton
0-1(H) 0-2(A)

Spurs
0-1(A) 2-2(H)

W1 D3 L6

14/15

Chelsea
1-1(H) 0-1(A)

City
0-1(A) 4-2(H)

Arsenal
2-1(A) 1-1(H)

Spurs
0-0(A) 3-0(H)

Liverpool
3-0(H) 2-1(A)

W5 D3 L2

15/16

Leicester
1-1(H) 1-1(A)

Arsenal
0-3(A) 3-2(H)

Spurs
1-0(H) 0-3(A)

City
0-0(H) 1-0(A)

West Ham
0-0(H) 2-3(A)

W3 D4 L3

Liverpool
3-1(H) 1-0(A)

 

[prath92]

Vidic in a recent interview said something similar.

Yeah I had a memory that they did. I thought I imagined it when I saw Moyes had denied it

 

[Minimalist]

You have to be on drugs to suggest Van Gaal. Both failed but the latter at least had some positives and redeeming qualities.

Van Gaal was just the wrong man in terms of his methods but he was somewhat likeable (for me anyway), despite the horrible goof he was at times. He also has a pretty nice CV. Also he was pretty dependable for getting good results against the better sides in the league which isn't something to be dismissed as Moyes literally embarrassed us at every turn in those matches.

Moyes has achieved absolutely feck all and you can tell by his demeanour. Horrible with the press and just sucked the life out of the club and everyone around him. feck Moyes.

 

[NinjaFletch]

The reasons behind why Van Gaal got a second season have no bearing at all on the point we're debating. Van Gaal spent more time and money investing in our squad than Moyes did. It's a really simple and self-evident point. No idea why you're still arguing against it.

Of course it's relevant. You're arguing that Van Gaal's second season failure is made worse because of the fact he had a first season to assess the squad and more time to reshape it. Yet Van Gaal's first season at the club wasn't a lame duck where he was tasked with nothing more than just having a look with a view to pushing on next year, it was a year where he was judged by the exact same criteria that Moyes had been in his first season here. The only reason Van Gaal was here in his second season is because of what he achieved in his first.

Now sure, its disappointing we didn't kick on in Van Gaal's second year but you just simply can't compare Moyes' failure to even get one with Van Gaal's failure to kick on in that second season because its inherently an unfair comparison based on nothing more than speculation of how Moyes might have done in his second season.

The only means of comparison you can make is that given the exact same financial backing, given the exact same support from the board, and evidently judged by the same standards, Moyes managed to perform badly enough to get sacked in his first year whilst Van Gaal didn't.

Your original post, lest I remind you said, '[Van Gaal] had the sort of time and money to invest in the team that Moyes could only have dreamed of.' but its patently not true. The most 'self-evident' thing is the amount of money that Moyes had to spend, had he wished to spend it. On time, the only thing you can say is that Moyes was given every opportunity to have the same amount of 'time' to shape the squad and the reason he was sacked sooner was a failure to achieve the same basic goals that Van Gaal managed to do. The amount of 'time and money' Van Gaal had wasn't something Moyes 'could only have dreamed of' but the exact same as what Moyes was allowed, or would have been allowed, had he not been even shitter than Van Gaal.

 

[acnumber9]

Scrapping into the CL. We beat the next placed team by 7 points.

It was 6 and by that I mean finishing fourth with 70 points. It's not exactly a triumph given the investment. He then went on to weaken us the next season and make our qualification in the first place practically pointless by getting us knocked out at the first hurdle. It was a meagre achievement at best.

 

[pierrethesnack]

Moyes bought Fellaini and Mata, both of whom have been poor.

I think that's a bit unfair. He's done a decent job for us, considering the managers he played for. Nothing spectacular, but not "poor".

Also, Moyes didn't perform too badly in the CL from what I remember.

In the CL games it looked like the players didn't give a damn about Moyes' plan. It looked more like a SAF team. There was actually some intensity and attacking play, whereas in the PL there was absolutely no joy or passion.

Moyes took over a team that finished 1st. LVG took over a team that finished 7th. Not even debatable in my book.

I don't think it's quite fair to put it like that. We won that title because of SAF, not because of our brilliant squad. If you compare our squad that season to those of our rivals that year, we didn't have much of an edge on them, even though we won the league convincingly. If SAF had stayed he likely would have made some serious changes the coming summer.

Likewise with LvG. The squad wasn't really a 7th place squad, so it's not like he performed some miraculous rescue operation by getting us into fourth.

But yeah, still not very debatable.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Again, Moyes did have the same money to spend. He didn't spend it and when he did, it was on players we didn't need at the time. He didn't get more time because he failed on every single level to the point in which his position was untenable. Van Gaal spent some money and then got us back into the top four. Moyes doesn't get a free pass because he was so terrible he couldn't get a second crack of the whip.

This. I hate it when people bring up the idea that Moyes didn't get the financial backing. That was his own bloody choice ffs. Self entitled prick thought he had 6 years to implement his master plan, whatever the feck it was.

Moyesies reign was one big downward spiral, with no signs of improvement at any point. Thank feck he gave the board the chance to sack him early. And thank feck the board took that chance.

 

[Adisa]

I think that's a bit unfair. He's done a decent job for us, considering the managers he played for. Nothing spectacular, but not "poor".



In the CL games it looked like the players didn't give a damn about Moyes' plan. It looked more like a SAF team. There was actually some intensity and attacking play, whereas in the PL there was absolutely no joy or passion.



I don't think it's quite fair to put it like that. We won that title because of SAF, not because of our brilliant squad. If you compare our squad that season to those of our rivals that year, we didn't have much of an edge on them, even though we won the league convincingly. If SAF had stayed he likely would have made some serious changes the coming summer.

Likewise with LvG. The squad wasn't really a 7th place squad, so it's not like he performed some miraculous rescue operation by getting us into fourth.

But yeah, still not very debatable.

All that is hypothesis we will never know. Moyes finished 7th. That is failure beyond reason.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Moyes.

A for being shit at his job and B for being a complete bell sniffer afterwards with all his shit spouting.

In all honesty I do think as time passes people will look back at LVG quite favourably for the FA Cup win and the emergence of Martial and Rashford.

 

[129104946]

LVG did worse considering the money invested. And for all the talk about philosophy and how bad Moyes was, some of the worst ever United performances came with LVG in charge.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Van Gaal

At least Moyes can claim to be out of his depth.
LvG was just stubborn and pigheaded when he forced his philosophy though it was obvious to everyone else that it ain't working.

 

[Oaencha]

I despise them both with an unhealthy passion... but at least LVG won a trophy... whilst Moyes spurned his best chance of getting a trophy by being shit against Arsenal and with one of the worst approaches to a game of football I've ever seen against Sunderland.

In terms of football played and overal management of the club I think they were both as bad as each other.

That Sunderland game was a nightmare; worst set of penalties by any team I've seen in my 26 years of supporting Utd.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

LVG did worse considering the money invested. And for all the talk about philosophy and how bad Moyes was, some of the worst ever United performances came with LVG in charge.

Moyes had the opportunity to buy players and didn't. Also, I doubt it would have made much of a difference for him

 

[RoadTrip]

LVG for me.

I think partly because I compare them with perspective which may or may not fair. Moyes was out of his depth and never had the tools to succeed - a gamble, an unnecessary one at that.

LVG has managed at huge clubs and has been successful. He has proven he has the ability and knowledge yet bizarrely made stupid decisions and arguably played worse football than Moyes.

For me therefore, Moyes who theoretically was hired in potential categorically didn't do a worse job than LVG who was proven and should have done better.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Van Gaal

At least Moyes can claim to be out of his depth.
LvG was just stubborn and pigheaded when he forced his philosophy though it was obvious to everyone else that it ain't working.

LVG has gone quietly into the night though... At every opportunity Moyes has a dig and a moan the despicable cnut.

 

[pierrethesnack]

All that is hypothesis we will never know. Moyes finished 7th. That is failure beyond reason.

It sure is. But if there were ever any mitigating circumstances for a manager to fail that badly, Moyes had some.

 

[Minimalist]

I must say at least 50% of the reason I prefer Van Gaal over Moyes is down to their personalities and dealing with the media (both during and post-reign). Some may dismiss this and think it's purely down to matches won/drawn/lost but I think that's foolish.
How they conduct themselves as managers off-field matters and for me Van Gaal left a much better impression - I just simply wanted him to go as it wasn't working anymore.
Moyes I still despise - which amazingly is labelled as 'obsessed' by some on here like as if there's no reason to dislike the man. There's a fecking laundry list of reasons to dislike Moyes and he's still adding to the list even as Sunderland manager.

 

[MDFC Manager]

LVG has gone quietly into the night though... At every opportunity Moyes has a dig and a moan the despicable cnut.

Only because the poor sod was treated unfairly

 

[RoadTrip]

Moyes had the opportunity to buy players and didn't. Also, I doubt it would have made much of a difference for him

LVG could have spent another £200m, and I firmly believe it wouldn't have made any difference to him either.

I think of it like this. Moyes had no experience at a top level job. LVG has a number of years, successful ones at that. You can't ignore that when you compare them.

If I'm a factory manager making jumpers, I would be more disappointed in a 30 year veteran in making jumpers making 50 jumpers a day than a new jumper-maker who previously made t-shirts for 15 odd years making 40 jumpers a day. Sorry I know that made no sense!
Also when you compare the numbers instead of just looking at where they finished in the table. If you look at CL performance (Moyes did better). If you consider that Moyes took over from the greatest, LVG from one of the worst. If you factor in strength of team and quality of football. Moyes wasn't much better but overall IMO he was.

 

[B20]

Moyes by a landslide.

I was vastly more disappointed to see him sacked than LvG.

 

[RoadTrip]

LVG has gone quietly into the night though... At every opportunity Moyes has a dig and a moan the despicable cnut.

Yeah he's acting like a tool but objectively that doesn't mean he did a worse job.

 

[Ricardo de la Vega]

They both wasted good players (Janujaz, Kagawa, Di Maria) because they were tactically clueless (Moyes) or obtuse (Van Gaal). Moyes was worse however because he just didn't have a clue and the football was terrible. Football was terrible under LVG but he did have an idea and a "philosophy" behind it.

 

[berbatrick]

It's not for lack of trying. Moyes tried to sign Fabregas and Bale. That would have taken him well beyond anything LVG spent. The lack of spending was partly his fault because he was dithering. You can't now use his dithery to exonerate him.

No response to this, of course. Because in fact it adds to Moyes' ineptness. Chasing unrealistic targets, failing to land them, settling for lesser (Herrera), completely failing there (probably not his fault TBH), finally paying above the clause for his personal dross - whom he completely failed at utilising.


Anyway the big-game contrast wins it for LvG. Liverpool 3-0, 2-1 3-1, 1-0 for LvG vs 0-1 and 0-3 for Moyes. City 4-2, 1-0, 0-0, 0-1 for LvG vs 1-4 and 0-3.

 

[Manny]

Moyes was an utter disaster. LVGs problem was he was stubborn old prat, but he pulled of wins Moyes could only dream off.

Van Gaal had a system that he tried to implement and failed for all sorts of reasons but Moyes couldn't even get a 4-4-2 to work.

And a lot of LVG issues were a hangover from the Moyes tenure. Rooney, morale, expectations etc. Not to say LVG didn't create his own problems.

 

[ottosec]

"Newcastle will come to OT to win and we must make it hard for them to do that"

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

LVG has gone quietly into the night though... At every opportunity Moyes has a dig and a moan the despicable cnut.

It'll pass. LvG will probably retire but Moyes has some more managing to do, so he's just trying to put himself in a better light.

Either way this poll is for who was worse for United as manager.

 

[RoadTrip]

It sure is. But if there were ever any mitigating circumstances for a manager to fail that badly, Moyes had some.

Looking at final league position is level 1 analysis though. Moyes finished 5th. But look at total points. Total goals. Goals conceded. Goal difference. Style of play. Strength of overall league. Etc.

LVG wins some but overall you'll see that LVG wasn't much better if at all.

 

[Raees]

Moyes lumbered us with Rooney on a 5 year contract (which each manager has had to deal with) and brought in Fellaini/Mata for £70m, two players who the next manager was lumbered with for ages as well.

Van Gaal has at least improved Smalling, Shaw/Martial/Rashford came through in his reign.. and he has improved our passing, so the fundamentals of a modern side are now there.

 

[Stookie]

LVG for me. The time and money and the shite awful football. Ok, moyes was out of his depth but LVG nearly put me off football.

 

[jansch]

Moyes was worse, yet Van Gaal somehow was an ever bigger disappointment.

Yep, I'd agree with this.

Number for number, Moyes was worse, for sure. But Van Gaal felt like the bigger disappointment.

 

[Adisa]

Moyes by a landslide.

I was vastly more disappointed to see him sacked than LvG.

Liverpool fans had a statue of him ffs

 

[Adisa]

Yep, I'd agree with this.

Number for number, Moyes was worse, for sure. But Van Gaal felt like the bigger disappointment.

That is because LVG came with more pedigree.

 

[Adisa]

"Newcastle will come to OT to win and we must make it hard for them to do that"

My fecking God.