Why has ETH gone so open?

[Ricardo de la Vega]

Whats weird about it for me is its exactly the same reason Liverpool fell of the pace last year - they had one guy sitting in the 4-3-3 in front of the back four, two centre halves playing high up the pitch and covering the wide areas - leaving a massive gaping hole in the middle and getting harmed on the counter with direct long-balls. For Liverpool it was a personnel problem as their midfield aged and got slow.

We dont press well enough at the top end of the pitch to get away with it. I watched Arsenal last night - wasn't a vintage performance from them obviously and I still think we're better than them man for man - but they are SO much better out of possession than we are. They all press to a plan, knowing the same trigger, curling their runs to cut off passing lanes. We press in such a disorganised kids on the playground way still after a year and a bit of ETH working on it. With us, as with Liverpool, I think its a personnel issue: our guys had years in our system not knowing or understanding how to press as a team and they have to relearn how to play football without the ball now.

 

[matherto]

Agreed - I don't think we were that open against Spurs. We just lost composure - first after the Bruno yellow, and second after they scored (and then became open as a result of constantly giving them back possession with aimless long balls).

Composure has long been a massive issue for the players we have though so why pigeonhole us searching for the perfect game when it means that the probabilities of it coming off are so slim? If one or a few of our players aren't on it (which happens every game) then it's doomed to fail.

 

[Borys]

We were terrible defensively in pre season as well so I expected it to continue as it has.

It's nothing tactically complicated. All managers and coaches are singing from the same hymn sheet now, they all know how to set a team up, all very much the same as each other.

It comes down to individuals. If your individuals are poor on the ball and lack physicality off it you'll be open defensively. You will concede goals.

No tactics can compensate for that.

If anything last season we got away with it to some extent. Plenty of fixtures where fortunately the lack of No.9's in the game helped us out.

I'd argue the bolded part. Maybe we're not top level defensively (some players look unfit), but THE problem we have is we're terrible offensively what leads to counters in which Casemiro is chasing. If Casemiro is chasing on his own, then we're doing something wrong.

 

[Marwood]

I'd argue the bolded part. Maybe we're not top level defensively (some players look unfit), but THE problem we have is we're terrible offensively what leads to counters in which Casemiro is chasing. If Casemiro is chasing on his own, then we're doing something wrong.

You thought we were decent defensively in pre season?

But agree with you the problems start all over the place not necessarily at the back.

 

[Delano]

I really hope he hasn't been impacted by nostalgia/ "the united way". But I remember Neville saying something along the lines of "I hope EtH tries to keep the United way and not be too Ajax possession based." At the end of last season.

It seems in the build up phase, we've reverted to become far more vertical and have sacrificed control.

The issue is, constantly losing the ball and hounding for it, is energy sapping if it doesn't pay off. I'm not convinced we have the athleticism to make it work. Certainly not in our front 6. And I'm not convinced that going completely Man for Man is helping us is either.

I don't want to go overboard, but the start of the season and midfield set up genuinely concerns me and I hope EtH can correct it.

 

[bosnian_red]

Composure has long been a massive issue for the players we have though so why pigeonhole us searching for the perfect game when it means that the probabilities of it coming off are so slim? If one or a few of our players aren't on it (which happens every game) then it's doomed to fail.

Not at all... The Spurs game in particular we did a very good job off the ball for the first hour. Didn't score our chances, didn't get our pen, they had a lucky bounce that led to their big chance and goal. It's a big away game, shit happens, if you miss big chances you'll likely lose. We lost composure afterwards in terms of sticking to the plan. Players wanted to chase to bounce back more and more, started lunging in and forcing it. That's a slow transition to move away from that. Also replay this game multiple times and we win far more often than we lose it based on the performance.

At some point, you just gotta score your chances and if you don't, the opponent will get theirs eventually.

 

[poleglass red]

The higher line we are using is leaving central defence exposed. Shaw playing inverted is leaving too much space down his side, this pulls Martinez over to cover that. No cover from midfield, no-one tracking runners, Casemiro hasn't got the legs and isn't being helped by whomever is supposed to be alongside him. Rashford can't hold the ball up, so it's coming right back at us. It's early days, he did a rethink last season after 2 games . Hope he can bring in at least a midfielder as we look lost there right now. Mount is a work in progress, it's difficult to see where he fits in, I thought he was coming in to maybe push Bruno, but right now he doesn't look a good fit. If an Amrabat does come in, I could see him making way unless he plays in one of the attacking roles

 

[matherto]

Not at all... The Spurs game in particular we did a very good job off the ball for the first hour. Didn't score our chances, didn't get our pen, they had a lucky bounce that led to their big chance and goal. It's a big away game, shit happens, if you miss big chances you'll likely lose. We lost composure afterwards in terms of sticking to the plan. Players wanted to chase to bounce back more and more, started lunging in and forcing it. That's a slow transition to move away from that. Also replay this game multiple times and we win far more often than we lose it based on the performance.

At some point, you just gotta score your chances and if you don't, the opponent will get theirs eventually.

Yeah but that's the point, we don't have the players to rely on 'just gotta score your chances' so why even attempt it? Surely there's a more reliable way of playing with the team that we've got?

 

[Hoof the ball]

Some fans will not be happy until we're playing 4-2-3-1 with two DMs and sitting in our own half.

But the same fans will complain that we can't build from the back, or pass out of a press, or are too deep and not pressing enough.

News flash, folks. You have to break an egg to make an omelet. He has to play a higher line with higher pressing and more advanced midfielders with a fullback committing to inverting to create the two DM shape because that is what is demanded to make all these things work.

But no. Of course the average wants United to get brilliant at a completely new shape before EtH dares to use it in a competitive game. Just give the man and his players some fecking real time with a new system for feck sake.

Enough with this, "hasn't worked in two games now" bullshit. The solution isn't to revert back to last seasons setup.

 

[Abraxas]

At its root it's probably just that the manager wanted to see continual improvement and development season on season. This season's approach was not supposed to exactly replicate last season but with a few different personnel, or maybe not even close to it - perhaps he wanted to take a bigger leap with preseason to work on it which is a natural point of progression compared to attempting something midseason. Probably he sees the standard that has been set and knows that a small incremental improvement would not be close to cutting it so he has taken some risks with how high the midfield is playing.

It's probably also the case that they're not exactly doing what he wants which makes it look a very bad idea. They might be taking up the positions he wants but I am pretty sure he didn't want the attack to fritter away possession at every opporunity putting us under pressure. I am pretty sure he didn't want a lack of tracking back and intensity and desire to defend. That's as much about a player output as it is a structure, so both things are going wrong.

Ultimately we'll see how it works, if at all - or whether he has to adjust his thinking.

 

[Red the Bear]

It's only two games in, he probably overestimated how good we are as an attacking unit, im sure he'll revert back to a more measured set up , not necessarily the last year's though as im sure he wants us progress more into a more expansive style.

 

[calodo2003]

Need a 'Threads that sound sexual but aren't' thread now.

 

[Ducklegs]

We need strikers, proper actual, can play upfront, win the ball, get on the end of crosses, drop deep and play their wingers in, beat a man, score goals honest to goodness strikers.

 

[tomaldinho1]

At its root it's probably just that the manager wanted to see continual improvement and development season on season. This season's approach was not supposed to exactly replicate last season but with a few different personnel, or maybe not even close to it - perhaps he wanted to take a bigger leap with preseason to work on it which is a natural point of progression compared to attempting something midseason. Probably he sees the standard that has been set and knows that a small incremental improvement would not be close to cutting it so he has taken some risks with how high the midfield is playing.

It's probably also the case that they're not exactly doing what he wants which makes it look a very bad idea. They might be taking up the positions he wants but I am pretty sure he didn't want the attack to fritter away possession at every opporunity putting us under pressure. I am pretty sure he didn't want a lack of tracking back and intensity and desire to defend. That's as much about a player output as it is a structure, so both things are going wrong.

Ultimately we'll see how it works, if at all - or whether he has to adjust his thinking.

I do think this is the positive way of looking at it, at it's heart he is challenging the players to be more progressive and offensive and really that's what we all want as fans. There's arguments to whether the players he's chosen to do this are right and if it's all a bit too much too soon but at least he is trying something and we're not just reverting to what we know we can do well, basic long ball/direct football and probably finish up around the top four but never win anything. If we want to close the gap on the best teams you have to take risks and that's what we are doing.

 

[Sky1981]

Keeping the balls, controling the balls on your feet are the bread and butter of top teams.

Our SAF teams have never been proponent of total possession football but they can keep the ball and pass around if they need to

We are Manchester United, even if tiki taka is not in our DNA we should be able to play acceptable possession football. Becoming a fast transition team still needs Bruno and Rashford especially to be able to retain possession and not giving it away cheaply.

So I dont care how good you are if you can't do the basics then you're no good to your team.

Previously Bruno was so on fire that he magically outset his weaknesses. But unless he pulls a purple patch every year his shortcomings is keeping up with him.

I'd rather a less flashy but functional midfield of 3 who can keep possession and a 3 front players who can press and not wasting possession every time they get the ball.

Basically we are trying for Jack pot moves instead of doing solid statistic football.

In a match you can get by by puling great moves but to do well in the league you need statistic.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yeah but that's the point, we don't have the players to rely on 'just gotta score your chances' so why even attempt it? Surely there's a more reliable way of playing with the team that we've got?

Why even attempt "just score the chances you make"? What? The reliable way of playing football is to create more chances than your opponents make. Whatever the system, that is its target. We missed too many chances, and have scored 1 out of 4.5 xG and also had a clear pen not called that would bring that up to 5.3 xG. That's very clearly just fecking put it in the net.

Players can be trained to play with more composure, trust the system more etc. You go through good runs and bad runs in front of goal. That's all that it is. It's early on in the season, wouldn't read into the first game (bad performance, but game 1) and the spurs game was more just bad finishing, then losing our cool after some bad bounces and bad luck.

 

[tjb]

I'm not sure if this video has been posted on here, but it articulates what I see as our main problems really well (lack of intensity, players not committing to their off-the-ball duties). The worry is that we had a similarly lazy start last season, and it took EtH dragging everyone out for a punishment run for us to show the required intensity, perhaps he'll need to crack the whip again.

I honestly think we just need patience. The issues aren't coming from midfield imo. There are gaps and tweaks that may need to be made, but us settling into the system is what's caused the start. After rewatching the Spurs game, we actually dominated them in that first half.

Our issues at the moments are one of a few things.

1) We are pressing really well. However, due to Garnacho being tasked with both pressing and being disciplined enough to track back on the flanks, its leaving our left hand side pretty much exposed. We have faced two teams who have been capable of exploiting that gap and it has resulted in it being a slight weakness for us at the moment.

2) Casemiro and Shaw haven't been great to start off the season. People don't want to point it out, but they've been slow to react to things this season. Shaw hasn't really been inverting into the midfield as he has been expected to do, its quite clear ETH gave him this task and he hasn't handled it as well as he did last season.

3) The change in shape is causing a few headaches particularly in how we build up from the back. Our defensive shape is spread to wide at the moment, anticipating Onana taking up some of those positions. Licha and Varane are overadjusting and as a result its leaving us far more stretched than we've been in defence - and a bit too fluid for my liking too.

These are mostly tactical issues that will be tweaked and sorted out by match sharpness. People just need patience.

 

[tjb]

I think the first half against Spurs illustrates perfectly what Ten Hag is trying to do. We pressed high, man to man, and dominated Spurs for 40 minutes, forcing them to turn over the ball almost all the time.

We were creating chances for fun, illustrated perfectly by Bruno’s nonchalant rabona cross.

We should have been one or two goals up. The 100% penalty that was stolen from us didn’t help either.

Mount played well, never mind he is the new scapegoat this season. He pressed well and had some good progressive dribbles which he can’t do according to some on here.

What we could have done better in the first half: obviously finishing, and there were moments where we were sloppy with the ball.

Our issues imo have actually been our attack. We've had tactical breakdowns, but these are similar to most teams transitioning from one system to another. I've seen this with City and Chelsea over the years, even Madrid this season. It can take some time to adapt. The problem we have had this season is that when we do put ourselves in positions to attack, our attackers don't actually attack effectively. The games we've had this season could easily have been high scoring thrillers, but the inability of our forwards to actually impact the game positively despite being time and space is what has led to this inquisition. Rashford has been poor as a 9 this season, and seems like he may not even be attempting to work in that position this year. Antony and Garnacho have been horrendous. They've been given time, space and chances and have consistently killed our attacks, particularly Garnacho. Spurs are a decent team that CAN score two goals against you. They were also playing aggressively. We had the chances to easily beat them, but we didn't have the quality in attack to take us there. The good thing is that we have options, Hojlund is coming, Rashford will shift to the left, Sancho and Amad are both in the squad and we also have Mount if we decide to use another midfielder next to Casemiro.

It's easy to see a change in system or an addition of a new midfielder who people already had some doubts about and blame them, but if you really look at what has seperated us from the top teams in Europe when experiencing a game like this, its the fact that our attackers don't do anything productive in games.

 

[Giggsy13]

Need a 'Threads that sound sexual but aren't' thread now.

I opened this thread with high expectations but now am thoroughly disappointed.

 

[horsechoker]

Why doesn't ten Hag just read the caf and do what we say?

 

[Teja]

2) Casemiro and Shaw haven't been great to start off the season. People don't want to point it out, but they've been slow to react to things this season. Shaw hasn't really been inverting into the midfield as he has been expected to do, its quite clear ETH gave him this task and he hasn't handled it as well as he did last season.

I think the Shaw role change is a pretty big one tactically in the build up. I went and re-watched the games against Wolves and Spurs after a discussion here and IMO Shaw was never expected to invert last season but is our defacto inverted fullback this season. Last season, the 3-1-6 build up looked something like:

----- Varane --- Martinez --- Shaw ----
------------------- Casemiro -------------------
------- Dalot --------------- Eriksen ----------
------------------- Bruno --------------------------
------ Antony -- Rashford --- LW ---------

Note: Dalot wasn't an inverted fullback in this picture, he was mostly in the wide half spaces. Eriksen dropped to provide support to Casemiro.

to

----- AwB --- Varane --- Martinez -------
---------- Casemiro --- Shaw ----------------
------------- Bruno -------- Mount ------------
-- Antony ------ Rashford ---------- LW --

The key differences were that we're trying to go from a 3-1 to 3-2 build up structure with a box in the middle. Dalot was fairly high and reasonably wide in the former system, he wasn't exactly an inverted fullback. The system now is the current football meta. Everyone (City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Brighton) seems to play this way.

One solution here was to throw a defensive mid at FB to help with build up because inverted fullbacks of this mould are hard to find (City sometimes have Grealish / Bilva playing there, Arsenal with Partey / Zinchenko, Pool with Trent who is basically a midfielder anyway). For us the closest player we have to that is Shaw. If you recall, the Caf had threads quite a long while ago asking for Shaw to be moved into midfield.

 

[Thiagoal]

I seem to remember Ole saying similar things before his last season with us. Something about wanting to be more attacking and only play with one defensive mid. If you recall we were equally as open in midfield and getting annihilated by anyone with decent attackers.

Therefore, the cynic in me is wondering if this is coming from above the managers head?

 

[matherto]

Why even attempt "just score the chances you make"? What? The reliable way of playing football is to create more chances than your opponents make. Whatever the system, that is its target. We missed too many chances, and have scored 1 out of 4.5 xG and also had a clear pen not called that would bring that up to 5.3 xG. That's very clearly just fecking put it in the net.

Players can be trained to play with more composure, trust the system more etc. You go through good runs and bad runs in front of goal. That's all that it is. It's early on in the season, wouldn't read into the first game (bad performance, but game 1) and the spurs game was more just bad finishing, then losing our cool after some bad bounces and bad luck.

I meant that we simply don't have the quality in anywhere near the amount needed to try and pull off a system which means actively trying to play that system seems like a huge risk for not much reward. If we had prime 2011 Barcelona I'd trust it but we don't and it feels like trying to climb through a cave as the roof is caving in on top of you, theoretically you can still get out but you're gonna have to pray to all the gods invented to make it through.

Surely there's a better way for our current squad with it's pluses and minuses to play that isn't such a narrow path to success?

It feels like we've jumped the shark a bit.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I seem to remember Ole saying similar things before his last season with us. Something about wanting to be more attacking and only play with one defensive mid. If you recall we were equally as open in midfield and getting annihilated by anyone with decent attackers.

Therefore, the cynic in me is wondering if this is coming from above the managers head?

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer plans for Manchester United to play more attacking system (telegraph.co.uk)

It's not coming from above the manager's heads, it is a logical step. Look at all of the last however many PL and CL winners, when was the last time a non elite pressing and/or possession team won them?

Ole had all the right ideas but he had never built or coached a team to do what he said, neither had McKenna or Carrick. ETH has.

 

[tjb]

I think the Shaw role change is a pretty big one tactically in the build up. I went and re-watched the games against Wolves and Spurs after a discussion here and IMO Shaw was never expected to invert last season but is our defacto inverted fullback this season. Last season, the 3-1-6 build up looked something like:

----- Varane --- Martinez --- Shaw ----
------------------- Casemiro -------------------
------- Dalot --------------- Eriksen ----------
------------------- Bruno --------------------------
------ Antony -- Rashford --- LW ---------

Note: Dalot wasn't an inverted fullback in this picture, he was mostly in the wide half spaces. Eriksen dropped to provide support to Casemiro.

to

----- AwB --- Varane --- Martinez -------
---------- Casemiro --- Shaw ----------------
------------- Bruno -------- Mount ------------
-- Antony ------ Rashford ---------- LW --

The key differences were that we're trying to go from a 3-1 to 3-2 build up structure with a box in the middle. Dalot was fairly high and reasonably wide in the former system, he wasn't exactly an inverted fullback. The system now is the current football meta. Everyone (City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Brighton) seems to play this way.

One solution here was to throw a defensive mid at FB to help with build up because inverted fullbacks of this mould are hard to find (City sometimes have Grealish / Bilva playing there, Arsenal with Partey / Zinchenko, Pool with Trent who is basically a midfielder anyway). For us the closest player we have to that is Shaw. If you recall, the Caf had threads quite a long while ago asking for Shaw to be moved into midfield.

You just pointed out something. I do think Shaw hasn't been inverting too well, but Garnacho hasn't been helping him at all defensively. Like most teams, when you shift shapes, its not going to be completely balanced. There will always be space somewhere. For us, it's on the flanks, if teams can fully bypass the initial press without us getting into shape immediately. In order to do this, our wide players have to commit to tracking back, as at times, space will appear in those areas, and in order to stay compact, we can't have any of the midfielders pulling too wide, and even if they do, one of the wingers should be able to fill into that position.

On Saturday, Garnacho wasn't able to keep to the defensive shape, so we had many moments where Mount had to cover him on the left. However, even when he would fill into the centre, it would be at an angle that presented opportunities for penetration from Spurs.

 

[fps]

He seems to have decided we’re going to become “the best transition team” which involves giving the other side the ball and inviting pressure. So depressing when we had Casemiro and Eriksen arrive like grown-ups in the room last season and we started controlling how matches were played.

 

[bosnian_red]

I meant that we simply don't have the quality in anywhere near the amount needed to try and pull off a system which means actively trying to play that system seems like a huge risk for not much reward. If we had prime 2011 Barcelona I'd trust it but we don't and it feels like trying to climb through a cave as the roof is caving in on top of you, theoretically you can still get out but you're gonna have to pray to all the gods invented to make it through.

Surely there's a better way for our current squad with it's pluses and minuses to play that isn't such a narrow path to success?

It feels like we've jumped the shark a bit.

Nah we have the squad for a high press system that plays out of the back. We didn't last season, we do now. The issue is mainly lack of CF, which really stops us from playing any sort of system properly. Hojlund will make a big difference just the type of player he is. Rashford up top forces you to be a bit overly counter attacking, dragging defences out to then hit it in behind, but that's not the goal, it's more just what we are left with.

 

[bosnian_red]

He seems to have decided we’re going to become “the best transition team” which involves giving the other side the ball and inviting pressure. So depressing when we had Casemiro and Eriksen arrive like grown-ups in the room last season and we started controlling how matches were played.

The main thing his statement said was he was going for more a Klopp route of football rather than Pep.

 

[crossy1686]

Why doesn't ten Hag just read the caf and do what we say?

He'd probably go and live on a farm if he read this place

 

[lex talionis]

We had our boot on the neck of Spurs but we missed glorious chance after glorious chance, which led to Spurs growing in confidence and us confidence. Spurs got a good goal as a result of outworking us and then got a fluky follow up goal that surely must have been recorded as an own goal.

We're missing a striker and no tactical genius by even Sir Alex can overcome that. Idle speculation by a random poster on an internet forum, but if we had prime Wayne Rooney in the squad we'd be sitting at the top of the table right now with City. Oh well.

 

[Thiagoal]

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer plans for Manchester United to play more attacking system (telegraph.co.uk)

It's not coming from above the manager's heads, it is a logical step. Look at all of the last however many PL and CL winners, when was the last time a non elite pressing and/or possession team won them?

Ole had all the right ideas but he had never built or coached a team to do what he said, neither had McKenna or Carrick. ETH has.

What ETH and Ole were proposing though was fast transitions and counter attacking football. We need to be able to keep the ball and control games if we want to dine at the top table in the coming years.

 

[Jimmy Greenhoff's Chest]

He seems to have decided we’re going to become “the best transition team” which involves giving the other side the ball and inviting pressure. So depressing when we had Casemiro and Eriksen arrive like grown-ups in the room last season and we started controlling how matches were played.

Being "the best transition team" doesn't necessarily mean we'll be reverting to counter-attacking, which is what you're suggesting. High pressing is not inviting pressure, it's moving the transition higher up the pitch. Lots of people on here seem to obsess about control of a match, but from what EtH has said, that doesn't seem to be what he's aiming for. Just as well given some of the players we have and their lack of control.

 

[flameinthesun]

I'm not sure if this video has been posted on here, but it articulates what I see as our main problems really well (lack of intensity, players not committing to their off-the-ball duties). The worry is that we had a similarly lazy start last season, and it took EtH dragging everyone out for a punishment run for us to show the required intensity, perhaps he'll need to crack the whip again.

Very good video. I think we've known this but its clear we do not press at 100%, meaning we running towards a player then slow down as if we are unsure whether to commit. There comes a point where the players have to be brave and commit fully to the press as well as taking the ball in tight spaces. That is the only way this style will work. I'm hoping Ten Hag can unlock this.

 

[tomaldinho1]

What ETH and Ole were proposing though was fast transitions and counter attacking football. We need to be able to keep the ball and control games if we want to dine at the top table in the coming years.

ETH has coached a team before that could dominate possession.

 

[RedStarUnited]

We were like this last season as well. Its why we conceded 7 at Anfield and 6 at the Etihad.

We basically set up the same way as Bielsa's Leeds - the man marking system, when it works is effective but you're too reliant on your players winning your 1-1 match ups. And unfortunately, our middle's too soft to win those match ups. When it doesn't work out we get thrashed. All it takes is one player to have a bad game, and you're going to get cut through like butter.

It annoys me so much that those 2 games are grouped together. The Liverpool game was much like the Spurs one we just had, we were the better team and should have scored with a Fernandes header (both games). Liverpool had 8 shots on target and scored 7, its crazy to say I know but it was a fluke game, just go back and look at those Salah goals.

The City match however, they were all over us for most of that match.

 

[Brianschoccysurprise]

Very good video. I think we've known this but its clear we do not press at 100%, meaning we running towards a player then slow down as if we are unsure whether to commit. There comes a point where the players have to be brave and commit fully to the press as well as taking the ball in tight spaces. That is the only way this style will work. I'm hoping Ten Hag can unlock this.

This is a really insightful breakdown, and nice to hear some positives. Almost like the midfield just switched off at half time, or they were confused by instructions

 

[SAFMUTD]

ten Hag is trying to evolve our style. Improve from competing to dominating teams the way to get big titles meaning Champions League and Premier League is this. To suffocate teams with high pressure, keep possession and control the game's tempo.

Of course it hasn't worked we look fragile and we're not doing it properly as we havent look organized with the high press. Also Garnacho and Antony haven't contributed with the possession style as they're too direct and tend to lose the ball easily without mentioning Bruno who seems allergic to recycling the ball.

I'm all in at giving ten Hag the time and patience to improve us. Of course we need results but this is like Klopp when he started implementing his style with Liverpool they were getting spanked, their defense couldn't hold. The problem is we can't get much behind now with so many teams competing for top 4. I hope ten Hag persists with this tactic, improving of course, if the preassure for results it's too much and we regress to the counter attacking style we'll achieve nothing significant. We should aim higher great football teams have moved on and it's time for us to catch up.

 

[bosnian_red]

It annoys me so much that those 2 games are grouped together. The Liverpool game was much like the Spurs one we just had, we were the better team and should have scored with a Fernandes header (both games). Liverpool had 8 shots on target and scored 7, its crazy to say I know but it was a fluke game, just go back and look at those Salah goals.

The City match however, they were all over us for most of that match.

Alright let's not go there. Liverpool game the first half was even but it was a drab affair. The Spurs game this past weekend we created chance after chance and just missed our chances. It was a normal loss. Liverpool created chances after chance against us, yes they had a hot finishing day but they had tons of big chances.

The reasons we got battered away to the big teams last year was because they pressed us high, our players mentally shit their pants but also were incapable of a) playing out from the back because of de Gea, and b) incapable of going long because of no hold up play at CF. So many of those games don't happen with Onana in, and the rest with Hojlund. Fluke results but performances drawn from smart and quality teams absolutely battering an easy and clear flaw, a flaw which gets exposed that bit more when you are away and it's a tougher atmosphere so you don't have the fans to give you the belief. And it snowballed because of this.

 

[fps]

Being "the best transition team" doesn't necessarily mean we'll be reverting to counter-attacking, which is what you're suggesting. High pressing is not inviting pressure, it's moving the transition higher up the pitch. Lots of people on here seem to obsess about control of a match, but from what EtH has said, that doesn't seem to be what he's aiming for. Just as well given some of the players we have and their lack of control.

True, fair enough. I think we’d be far more successful with a midfield that can control possession, we don’t have the players for this and Klopp-ball seems to have had its day.

 

[Greck]

Actually hard to tell without more sample data. The problem of course is differentiating how much exactly is down to tactical naivete and how much is player incompatibility. Do we have the right tools and it's just a matter of time, or do we need to fix another misdiagnosed summer window?