and England managers have been oh so successful eh?
Why wasn't Steve Bruce capped?
- Thread starter Cling Bak
- Start date
Not really comparable given that Pallister's injuries curtailed his career. When he was fit and available he was selected ahead of Keown numerous times.
They both played around 500 league games so I'd guess they were about as available as each other. Keown was just a lot better than Pallister, better than Adams for much of the time as well as a player though Tony had the captain factor.
Bruce was a little too slow for international football, or at least that was the belief.
A fair bit of context is missing from this thread. Why Bruce never got picked at international level is easily understandable, or at least it was at the time.
The first one is age. Bruce did not arrive at United until he was 27 going on 28 and the form of his first couple of years was solid but not among the best defenders in the country. He had also spent his career before then playing for lower league or mid table sides. Bobby Robson finished as England manager in 1990 and that season Bruce and Pally were part of a defence which was closer to the relegation zone than the top and did not have a very good partnership. Why Robson never picked him was obvious, there were better defenders about playing better than Bruce.
Bruce was close to 31(Cup Winners cup season) when he started to form a solid partnership with Pally and started to be recognised as one of the best centre backs in the country. This is when the quality of England's established centre backs started to decline as well and new faces could make a mark(basically Butcher and Walker started to lose it). This is when Bruce could have made a mark on international level and played well enough to earn a cap from 91-94
The reason I reckon he never got a chance or made a squad was his age when he was really in the mix for selection. Bruce would have been pushing 32 or 34 at Euro 92 and World Cup 94 respectively and it was a rarierty in those days for players to be capped in their 30's. Taylor knew he would not have much of a shelf life left but he can certainly claim to be better than some of the centre backs used as the 4th choice in the squad in those days. Nevertheless, Pally was never massively used by Taylor either and his exclusion in Euro 92 was a much bigger surprise than Bruce as he was the current PFA player of the year.
Bruce was certainly good enough to have been capped under Taylor as he was better than alot of the defenders who were used in some of those squads(have a gander who England used in the summer of 93 when they lost to USA and Germany) but due to his age you can see why others were preferred. Still if everyone was fit from 91-94 you could still see an argument that the likes of Pally, Adams, Walker(his full decline was never fully evident until he returned from Italy) were all better than him. The likes of Curle were hardly regulars for England(he only got 3 caps but did get called up for Euro 92) and Palmer was used in centre midfield from what I can recall.
The first one is age. Bruce did not arrive at United until he was 27 going on 28 and the form of his first couple of years was solid but not among the best defenders in the country. He had also spent his career before then playing for lower league or mid table sides. Bobby Robson finished as England manager in 1990 and that season Bruce and Pally were part of a defence which was closer to the relegation zone than the top and did not have a very good partnership. Why Robson never picked him was obvious, there were better defenders about playing better than Bruce.
Bruce was close to 31(Cup Winners cup season) when he started to form a solid partnership with Pally and started to be recognised as one of the best centre backs in the country. This is when the quality of England's established centre backs started to decline as well and new faces could make a mark(basically Butcher and Walker started to lose it). This is when Bruce could have made a mark on international level and played well enough to earn a cap from 91-94
The reason I reckon he never got a chance or made a squad was his age when he was really in the mix for selection. Bruce would have been pushing 32 or 34 at Euro 92 and World Cup 94 respectively and it was a rarierty in those days for players to be capped in their 30's. Taylor knew he would not have much of a shelf life left but he can certainly claim to be better than some of the centre backs used as the 4th choice in the squad in those days. Nevertheless, Pally was never massively used by Taylor either and his exclusion in Euro 92 was a much bigger surprise than Bruce as he was the current PFA player of the year.
Bruce was certainly good enough to have been capped under Taylor as he was better than alot of the defenders who were used in some of those squads(have a gander who England used in the summer of 93 when they lost to USA and Germany) but due to his age you can see why others were preferred. Still if everyone was fit from 91-94 you could still see an argument that the likes of Pally, Adams, Walker(his full decline was never fully evident until he returned from Italy) were all better than him. The likes of Curle were hardly regulars for England(he only got 3 caps but did get called up for Euro 92) and Palmer was used in centre midfield from what I can recall.
I can't recall Pallister having injury problems that restricted his England career.
The truth is he should have earned more caps from 91-96 when he was in his prime and among the country's top defenders and for me at times the country's best centre back. I don't know why he was so under-used by Taylor or Venables. It's not as if Taylor had a glut of in form centre backs when Pallister had won the PFA award in 92 but he was still ignored. Venables is more understandable as he has the better results to back up his squad selections but Pally should have won more caps when Walker was declining, Butcher had retired and Adams was in the international wilderness.
Nice posts, Ole'sbodyguard.
I think the age thing is a big contributing factor and Bobby Robson not selecting Bruce is a bit more obvious than Taylor. But it still doesn't answer why he wasn't ever tried out. Yes, his shelf life wouldn't be too long but at the time, England needed quality, leaders and strong characters - particularly during qualification for USA '94. They could've used a Bruce in there, with Walker really on the decline. Why he didn't get so much as 1 cap still remains a mystery. I guess only Taylor knows why.
I think the age thing is a big contributing factor and Bobby Robson not selecting Bruce is a bit more obvious than Taylor. But it still doesn't answer why he wasn't ever tried out. Yes, his shelf life wouldn't be too long but at the time, England needed quality, leaders and strong characters - particularly during qualification for USA '94. They could've used a Bruce in there, with Walker really on the decline. Why he didn't get so much as 1 cap still remains a mystery. I guess only Taylor knows why.
Pallister's top level career was over by the 97/98 season due to bad back injuries. Keown continued to win caps to 2002 meaning they were being selected in different eras. Like I said, not really comparable. There is no way on Earth Keown was a better defender than Pallister and the method you've chosen to 'prove' your point is a poor one.
I'm referring more to the fact his peak was cut short by his back injuries. Had it not been for those injuries that dogged around 97/98 I beleive he'd have played longer at United and probably won further caps. You're right though, Pallister should have had way more caps between 91 and 96 when he was at his best.
But what about when the auditions for Planet of the Apes had finished and the football started?
Apart from being a much better player, Keown is also much smarter and more articulate than Pallister.
Also not a pussy
There are other terms for the same thing that sum up perfectly though.
Van Nistlerooij? Fanny, fairy, jessie.... take your pick.
Keown and Adams were no better than Pally.
All three were better players than Bruce.
What the feck
Players capped between 91 and 96 include:
Geoff Thomas
John Salako
Earl Barrett
Mark fecking Walters
Gary Charles
Andy Gray
Andy Sinton
Rob Bloody Jones
Keith Curle
Carlton Palmer
David Bardsley
Steve Bould
Kevin Richardson
Barry Venison
Steve Howey
Neil Ruddock
Warren Barton
John Scales
Colin Cooper
Granted, not all centre backs, but given it was confetti time, why the hell Bruce wasn't given a go when this lot were beggars belief.
Let me guess, Vieira and Petit > Keane and Scholes?
Bruce was pretty much finished as a top level player after 94 so going to 96 with him distorts matter somewhat. If Bruce was still in his 91-94 under Venables he would have picked up a cap IMO as Venables was all about giving anyone showing some decent club form a chance in his squads as he did not have to worry about qualification for Euro 96 and Howey, Scales, Ruddock and Cooper would have been centre backs he would have tried. The only centre backs in that list who would have been capped by another manager is Curle who Bruce was always better than.
What injuries dogged im in 97/98?
Pally played 43 games in all competitions that season and was the club's 4th highest in appearances in all competitions behind the likes of Beckham, G Neville and Schmeichel. He only missed five league games.
I would not say Pally was at his peak either in 97/98 as he was 32 going on 33 that season and was getting closed to past it. The signing of Jaap made his sale a sensible one with the likes of Ronnie J around and Hennig Berg just signed.
There were also better centre backs around for England at this time period. Pally's time period for England caps should have been from 91-96 when for me was always in the top two available and at times was the best English centre back going.
Wasn't he a turnip?
I may be wrong but I recall him havin had bad problems around that time with his back and it really affecting his game as he went from one o the best around to shown the door very quickly.
Taylor was actually quite unlucky as England manager. He was never the best man for the job but alot of what went wrong with England post Robson was outside his control.
He lost three experienced players from Robson's side immediately in Shilton, Butcher and Robbo.
Barnes was pretty much crocked from the moment he took the job and was never the same player again. Barnes never hit his club form for England but he was an extremely talented player. Beardsley another talented player for Liverpool also lost his way for a few years with different clubs before he hooked up with Cole and that was well into the latter parts of Taylor's reign.
He had to deal with Gascoinge and Shearer getting serious injuries when the qualifying for World cup 94 began and they were probably the two players whom he would have wanted to build the future around as they were potential world beaters. Both missed most of the qualification for the tournament.
He had to deal with Lee Sharpe suffering a serious injury after he had emerged as a star for United and would have had a run in the England side. It did not impact on United as we had Giggs but Sharpe was the first truly exciting youngster to emerge after the 90 World Cup and he out for most of 91/92 and was never quiet as good after that.
He also had to deal with Mcmanaman, another potential post World cup 90 star, losing his way under the dippers for a couple of years.
The reason the likes of Sinton, Palmer, were regulars for him in the qualifiers was because you can only pick who is not on the treatment table.
He made plenty of mistakes(not playing Pallister more, subbing Lineker in Euro 92, not getting the best out of Ian Wright when Shearer was out for most of the World cup qualifiers, playing Rob Jones over Lee Dixon and Paul Parker and not bringing back Waddle when he was in inspirational club form ) but there is a reason why alot of his squads, especially for the 94 World cup qualification were fall of average players. He lost some genuinally top players to retirement and the the players who could have filled the void sustained serious injuries. Platt is just about the only player I can recall consistently playing well for England under Taylor.
I always thought England had the makings of a good side from 92-94 with the likes of Seamen, Pallister, Ince, Platt, Gascoinge, Sharpe, Mcmanaman, Shearer, Pearce, Parker, Adams, etc. The strikers then are actually better than what England have now in Shearer, Wright, Ferdinand, Hirst, Sherringham and I'd take an Ince in this side and Adams, Keown or Pallister as a replacement for Rio over the likes of Carragher, Upson and Dawson any day of the week.
It just never really worked out for them until Venables took charge and the injuries cleared up abit.
Most of those make it into the current side ( I make it 7/8 of them).
Oh the irony. Rob 'Bloody' Jones was Giggs pick as the toughest opponent he faced that season, he was a wonderful player and would have given Neville a run for his shirt had he stayed fit.
Ruddock was f*cking sh*t, I can't believe Colin Cooper got a cap? Solako, Thomas and Bould were decent players, certainly Bruce isn't out of their league though, I think he was unlucky.
Northern Ireland -- but the story goes that Fergie wouldn't let him declare -- at the time when you could only have a certain number of foreign players and NI and rep of I were foreign