Wine Draft: SF - prolifik vs Pat_Mustard

With players at their peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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prolifik



Pat_Mustard



prolifik Tactics

We've switched to a 4-2-3-1 setup, with Zidane slotting in as a classic #10 orchestrating for our explosive forward line. In addition to their sheer pace and skill, the interchangeability of our front men makes them a major challenge - Figo and Mbappe are both comfortable on either flank, and Henry is happy to drift all across the final third to find space. The attackers are supported by a balanced double-pivot, with Alonso sitting and dictating while Pirri plays a box-to-box role.

Pat has an excellent back four but we've got the weapons to cause them some problems. Baresi's reliance on the offside trap is dicing with danger against a team with Zidane operating between the lines, Alonso spraying long passes from deep, and the pace of Figo, Mbappe, and Henry to run in behind. It may work 9 times out of 10, but we feel at some point we can spring the trap and punish them. Additionally, our pacy and unpredictable forward line isn't the best fit for Chiellini's strengths as a defender.

Defensively, we assume Cristiano will be occupying the left channel in some capacity, and we're comfortable (to the extent you can be against this level of player) with the Bergomi-Carvalho combination to combat him on that side.

Pat_Mustard Tactics

Formation: 4-3-1-2


Similar team shape to our last match, but we shift away from the dour, defence-first Lippi model to something slightly more possession-based and expansive, and more akin to the diamonds deployed by Ancelotti at Milan or Zidane at Real Madrid in 2016-17. We're capable of countering at pace, but equally we can hold onto the ball for longer periods, be it to build attacks through sustained pressure, or simply to take the steam out of the match and defend by retaining possession.

  • We'll still tend to drop off in the defensive phase and defend in a deeper block, as that seems like more familiar and comfortable terrain for most of our players, particularly Buffon and Chiellini.
  • Verratti coming in alongside Rodri gives us two press-resistant volume passers to orchestrate our possession phases and manage the flow of the match.
  • In a narrow formation, we now have two of the premier flank-dominating FBs in our side of the draft in Cabrini and Amoros to keep the pitch wide when we're attacking.
  • This is the late-stage Real Madrid version of Cristiano, when he was at his most decisive as a goalscorer in big matches, and was less wasteful and egotistical in his involvement in the build-up phases. To be honest I have mixed feelings about dropping the hard-running, more selfless and vastly more likeable Butragueno, but with a workhorse like Riva at CF, and Baggio who will drop back and do his bit against the ball, I feel we can accomodate Ronaldo here as our one player who will basically 'cheat' in the defensive phase and wait for the opportunity to do something decisive on the counter.
  • With Riva occupying the CBs and doing the back-to-goal stuff, good crossing from the FBs, punchy direct passing from the CMs, and the possibility of something outrageously creative from Baggio, there's a good range of tools for Cristiano to work with here, and as much as he annoys me he's one of the most reliable matchwinners the game has seen.
 

Physiocrat

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@prolifik

I know you see this as a fluid front 4 but it would seem to me to make more sense to have Zidane at LAM and Mbappe as a strike partner on the right of Henry. The inside left channel looks very congested and Mbappe would give more support to Figo too given he is on the side of the deep Xabi and the more resevred full-back in Bergomi.
 

The Red Viper

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Should be a good game but I went with Prolifik.

Pat has a better defense but I rate Prolifik's attack and midfield slightly more.

Feel like as good as Mendieta was in his prime and Verratti is, Pat needs a bit more quality there. Verratti was very talented but man flattered to deceive a lot as well in big games. Someone like a Tigana/Vieira instead of him and I would have gone for Pat. Because as good as Rodri is, he has a lot in his plate this game with Zidane and the sheer pace and penetration on the flanks from Prolifik.
 

prolifik

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@prolifik

I know you see this as a fluid front 4 but it would seem to me to make more sense to have Zidane at LAM and Mbappe as a strike partner on the right of Henry. The inside left channel looks very congested and Mbappe would give more support to Figo too given he is on the side of the deep Xabi and the more resevred full-back in Bergomi.
I see the concentration of Mbappe, Evra, and sometimes Zidane down that flank as a positive. It should help to dampen the impact of Amoros and Mendieta who I feel are crucial to Pat's attacking play in that system.
 

Physiocrat

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I see the concentration of Mbappe, Evra, and sometimes Zidane down that flank as a positive. It should help to dampen the impact of Amoros and Mendieta who I feel are crucial to Pat's attacking play in that system.
But with Henry drifting there too it's a problem.
 

prolifik

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But with Henry drifting there too it's a problem.
It's essentially the same role he had for France at World Cup 2006. In this setup, he isn't going to be drifting left as often as he did playing 4-4-2 for Arsenal. Zidane isn't exactly anchored to the flank either, even if he does meander out there from time to time.
 
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Jim Beam

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Am not sure about Baggio - Ronaldo - Riva. Something seems off. On the other side, a bit of the same - whose team is it really? Two of the front 4 have to sacrifice something of their game to make it work.

Strangely a much bigger fan of complementary pieces around. Rodri - Mendieta - Veratti and Xabi - Pirri behind Zidane as a midfield trio is lovely.


Similar team shape to our last match, but we shift away from the dour, defence-first Lippi model......
Forget to say it, but thought the team was great. On the other hand maybe I just can't stand Ronaldo.. :wenger:
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Both midfields and attacks are a bit off. Just doesn't fit in perfectly, though very workable.

Bergomi on Cristiano is nice, but that Inside/Left is congested.

Pat's midfield needs a better playmaker at this stage of drafts. Very functional but needs flair.

It's a tie.
 

Physiocrat

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It's essentially the same role he had for France at World Cup 2006. In this setup, he isn't going to be drifting left as often as he did playing 4-4-2 for Arsenal. Zidane isn't exactly anchored to the flank either, even if he does meander out there from time to time.

Anyway, I'm now out of posts for the day so I guess I'll have to leave it to the voters. :)


Looking at the 2006 World Cup, Henry only scored 3 goals. Also here Malouda was more of an orthodox LW and Abidal was reserved so it was only Zidane and Henry the inside left-position here.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Not sure about Ronaldo-Riva. Might be i need to rewatch some of the games, but my impression of Riva in big games from WC/Euro was a single-minded goalscorer that does 95% of things with scoring himself in his mind, and takes a large amount of shots. Not much of a flaw when you are a great goalscorer like that, however i'm not sure i could see him playing support role well for Cristiano.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Forget to say it, but thought the team was great. On the other hand maybe I just can't stand Ronaldo.. :wenger:
:D You and me both Jim.

How to make yourself dislike your team in one move:

Preferred my team in the last match, as I felt I'd nailed the tactics well and liked all of the players, but I felt it was a bit of a dead end going forward.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Not sure about Ronaldo-Riva. Might be i need to rewatch some of the games, but my impression of Riva in big games from WC/Euro was a single-minded goalscorer that does 95% of things with scoring himself in his mind, and takes a large amount of shots. Not much of a flaw when you are a great goalscorer like that, however i'm not sure i could see him playing support role well for Cristiano.
I agree to an extent. His instinct certainly seemed to be to shoot rather than pass, and I don't think his approach play and passing game was particularly polished. He brings attributes to the table that are important to balancing out the team though, namely defensive work rate, and aspects that are directly beneficial to Cristiano - his ability to occupy multiple defenders and do the back-to-goal stuff that Ronaldo never really seemed to fancy.

EDIT: Maybe there's some similiarities to Higuain, who was quite a traditional No. 9 and on paper not someone I would have thought would have worked well with Ronaldo. They did pretty well together though, before he was supplanted competely by Benzema.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Do people Rodri as better than Deschamps?
Aye, I think so. Deschamps was very influential for some great teams, but Rodri is a notch above imo. Comparable to Deschamps at his strong suits, but better in the air, better on the ball, and every bit as influential.

Pat's midfield needs a better playmaker at this stage of drafts. Very functional but needs flair.
Depends on your own definition of flair of course, but Verratti at his best was one of my favourite players in the world to watch. His dribbling in tight spaces was so easy on the eye:


Not to mention that Baggio at the tip of the diamond.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Verratti was very talented but man flattered to deceive a lot as well in big games.
Thoughts on this folks? I think he has quite a good portfolio of big-match performances, with Euro 2020, several matches against Barca, and his match against City springing to mind. His main problem in that regard to me is the move to PSG limiting his potential number of big games in the first place, then of course his abysmal injury record.
 

Jim Beam

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Do people Rodri as better than Deschamps?
At DM very few are better than Rodri (old/new/whatever) imo. Deschamps is definitely underrated as already mentioned.

Gave this to Mustard after a lot of thinking, so the smallest of margin and just because I find his team slightly more interesting in how it will devolop.
 

Gio

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Thoughts on this folks? I think he has quite a good portfolio of big-match performances, with Euro 2020, several matches against Barca, and his match against City springing to mind. His main problem in that regard to me is the move to PSG limiting his potential number of big games in the first place, then of course his abysmal injury record.
Reckon he's great. Press-resistance off the charts. To pick up on TRV's point, I think his career - more than his big CL performances - has flattered to deceive as he hasn't really capitalised on his potential for those reasons above and will never feature in a top 20 midfielders of all-time list.
 

The Red Viper

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Thoughts on this folks? I think he has quite a good portfolio of big-match performances, with Euro 2020, several matches against Barca, and his match against City springing to mind. His main problem in that regard to me is the move to PSG limiting his potential number of big games in the first place, then of course his abysmal injury record.
Thing is those matches were quite early in his PSG career. And thats what made so many excited about his potential.

Unfortunately he never kicked on and built on those performances.

The main frustration with Verratti is, a player as talented and gifted on the ball should have been so much more really. Like you said, if he was probably at a serious club, he would have been able to justify that potential but even then injuries would have rekt his career. Also, he was so undisciplined as a player. Lot of bozo-moments with the tackling.

I would rate someone like a Thiago higher than Verratti. Although both should have had far better careers imo. Like Verratti, Thiago was/is supremely gifted technically on the ball.
 

General_Elegancia

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Do people Rodri as better than Deschamps?
Although Deschamps is pretty underrated in some of today fans, I would still say that Rodri is a better than player than Deschamps. He is better in the air, better on the ball, better in long-range shots, and a bit better long passer. Deschamps was better at stamina, tenacious fighting-spirit, mentality, leadership and in pure defensive phase( imo, a bit).

Riva and Ronaldo might not be the best possible fit, I agree with Pat that Riva brings a lot of work rate and his ability back to goal with defenders can combine with Ronaldo’s run from blind spot( which is considered one of his biggest strengths) to score. Both also have great amount of acceleration and top speed.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Thing is those matches were quite early in his PSG career. And thats what made so many excited about his potential.

Unfortunately he never kicked on and built on those performances.

The main frustration with Verratti is, a player as talented and gifted on the ball should have been so much more really. Like you said, if he was probably at a serious club, he would have been able to justify that potential but even then injuries would have rekt his career. Also, he was so undisciplined as a player. Lot of bozo-moments with the tackling.

I would rate someone like a Thiago higher than Verratti. Although both should have had far better careers imo. Like Verratti, Thiago was/is supremely gifted technically on the ball.
His last top performance against Barca was in 2021, same year as he excelled against City and won the delayed Euro 2020. He was very good for quite a long period of time imo, but it was just too sporadic and injury-riddled to rack up the achievements to match his talent. I'd agree with @Gio that he just doesn't have the body of work to feature in a top twenty midfielders of all time list, but I rate his peak level very highly.

Thiago has quite a similar skill set but for some reason he never quite did it for me. He was flashy and easy on the eye without seeming to control matches in the same way as Verratti, and there was always a debate among the Bayern fans on here about how important he actually was to their team.