Woodward vs Mourinho vs former legends vs Players

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
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Posters like myself had been labelled in the anti/pro Mourinho, anti/pro Woodward or anti/pro players camp which I believe is unfair considering that the truth is somehow in the middle. So I thought that we need a thread were we are able to set the scores right.

Woodward

While being a financial genius, its pretty evident that football wise he's still a rookie which is dangerous especially since Manchester is not what is considered as a desirable city for players to be in. He lacks football knowledge and contacts which means that we are taken to the cleaners by ruthless agents, we struggle to get rid of the deadwood and we tend to sign players who are in search of the last pay cheque.
The manager is part at fault with the latter. The past four managers brought/kept players past their expiry date/not good enough mostly because of their loyalty to their manager. SAF kept the class of 92 when they were too old, Moyes brought Fellaini, LVG brought Bastian and Mou brought Matic and wanted Willian for crazy money.

If you ask me the problem is way bigger then Woodward. In fact crap started to hit fan under Gill administration and his so called value strategy. It was during that period were top players like Rio, Vidic Giggs, Scholes and Ronaldo were being systematically replaced with players who were clearly not good enough.

Returning on Woodward, he's clearly out of depth and has handled the Mou's problem horribly. Prior of giving him a contract extension he should have asked about his plans, the players he wanted and decided accordingly. If Mou's vision (ie instant success based on buying 30 year old players) differed greatly from that of the club then we shouldn't have extended his contract.

Solution:

Its time we appoint a CEO who knows a thing or two about football. Woodward can remain as joint CEO taking care of the financial side but we really need someone with the know how, the experience and the contacts needed to do this highly important job.

Bring people (Technical directors, chief scouts etc) in with experience in the job (not Queroz as DOF etc). People with experience in the required job tend to know what's doing + they have an extensive net of contacts. If you've got back pain then you go to a specialist in back pain not a world renowned dentist.


The players


As said the squad is clearly not good enough. Our CBs are not suited for the job, our full backs are failed wingers and we practically have no right wingers. If you ask me I would only keep 10 players out of the entire squad and that based on talent alone.

Having said that, I've worked with a shitty manager who constantly throw colleagues under the bus and I assure you its not a nice situation. By the end of the year every single person in that 10 men division have left the job, some of them preferring going on dole rather then stay with that idiot an hour longer. That division had previously won awards for being the most highly performance in the entire company. Mou has lost not 1 dressing room but 3

Solution:

Once we've got the system in place we need to act quick and decisively in the same way SAF did during his first years. Remove the deadwood and give an ultimatum to those with talent

Players won't be able to blackmail the manager as they would know that the strategy taken was discussed and collectively agreed with the people on top. They might be able to force the club to sack the manager but not half the board of directors

The Manager

I had only recently joined the sack Mourinho brigade and the reason to that is simple and cynical. He lost the dressing room. This may contrast with what I said in the previous paragraph but its doesn't. You see, I am not happy with players forcing a manager to leave. However as said before you can't really expect people to sweat blood for someone who would throw you under the bus the very moment he's under pressure. That's not how human nature work.

Solution:

Sack the manager but make sure to bring in a decent manager with

a- top man management skills
b- whose got total support (if not friendship) with the board.

That mean that next time the players consider a coup they'll know that it won't succeed

Former players

I know that they love the club however they have absolutely no idea what's going on and they certainly have no idea how clubs usually operate. Most of them had been with one club and under one manager for most of their lives. SAF created a safe environment for them shielding them from the harsh realities of football which rely on success not empty morals. Which explains why none of them was able to become a half decent manager.

Solution

Its time we appoint one of them in the board in a role very similar to what Nedved has at Juventus. That would give these guys an idea of what's really going on, instead of keeping in the dark only for them to come up with wrong conclusions.
 

SecondFig

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Personally, I'm 100% anti-board/owners. I think they're the biggest problem at the club, and by a long way.

But, I'm also 100% anti-Mourinho. Even with the excuses of a poorly run club, he's been massively underwhelming. We're 3 years in and he has no clue what his best XI is, no clue what his best formation is, no clue what his style of play at Utd is. Our defence is shite, our attack is shite - the team doesn't look like it's actually being coached. Plus, he's managed to alienate pretty much the entire squad.

The players have disappointed me, but I'd be willing to give any of them a 2nd chance. I disagree with those who think our squad is awful - they've just been managed awfully. We do have a couple of weaknesses (still), but the squad we have are capable of doing a hell of a lot more on the pitch than they have done for the last few years.

Former players - they've got a right to speak out and give their opinions. It doesn't make them right - obviously - but I've no issue with them having an opinion.
 

Josep Dowling

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Blame game.

Everyone’s at fault at the club but who is going to take the responsibility to turn the club around?

The players should be putting in 100% regardless of the manager.

Mourinho needs to stop arguing with every man and his dog. He needs to stop changing the team so much. He needs to pick a team with balance.

Woodward needs to make a decision on the manager rather than waiting until another season has past. If he trusts Mourinho he needs to have a word with him regarding his conduct with the media and shaming of players in interviews. If he doesn’t trust Mourinho sack him immediately and move on.
 

Ollie Derbyshire

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The players have disappointed me, but I'd be willing to give any of them a 2nd chance. I disagree with those who think our squad is awful - they've just been managed awfully. We do have a couple of weaknesses (still), but the squad we have are capable of doing a hell of a lot more on the pitch than they have done for the last few years.
What about players who have disappointed for multiple managers.....we have plenty of those we need to let go
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
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Blame game.

Everyone’s at fault at the club but who is going to take the responsibility to turn the club around?

The players should be putting in 100% regardless of the manager.

Mourinho needs to stop arguing with every man and his dog. He needs to stop changing the team so much. He needs to pick a team with balance.

Woodward needs to make a decision on the manager rather than waiting until another season has past. If he trusts Mourinho he needs to have a word with him regarding his conduct with the media and shaming of players in interviews. If he doesn’t trust Mourinho sack him immediately and move on.
I don't think that you can really pusg the blame solely on one person. For example sacking Woody is crazy. The man is a money generating machine. However he does struggle on the football side. Thus we need to partner him with a joint CEO who is specialised on that which in turn would allow woody to focus on what he does best

Regarding players we surely need a clear out. Many players aren't good enough. However throwing under the bus the few ones that are actually good enough is crazy as much as losing trust on the very players we have just signed. No matter how good the new CEO, DOF & chief scout is we won't be able to replace an entire squad every season or so
 

Josep Dowling

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I don't think that you can really pusg the blame solely on one person. For example sacking Woody is crazy. The man is a money generating machine. However he does struggle on the football side. Thus we need to partner him with a joint CEO who is specialised on that which in turn would allow woody to focus on what he does best

Regarding players we surely need a clear out. Many players aren't good enough. However throwing under the bus the few ones that are actually good enough is crazy as much as losing trust on the very players we have just signed. No matter how good the new CEO, DOF & chief scout is we won't be able to replace an entire squad every season or so
Well I agree. I think there is a big issue with scouting.

Mourinho has signed Micky, Lindelof and Fred. The three transfers is about £110m combined. When you spend that amount of money on one player they should slot straight into the first 11. They shouldn’t need to be slowly bedded into the team. If they do you simply haven’t bought well. A full scouting assessment would factor in how they would cope in a new country and their mentality.

The turnover of players simply isn’t quick enough and that’s down to the insane contracts these players are on. They don’t want to leave, do you blame them? Why would a player want to leave one of the biggest clubs in the world on money they would not get at another club just to be a guaranteed starter.

The likes of Jones, Smalling, Young, Mata, Fellaini, Darmian and Rojo should have all been sold by now. Mata is a good player but he doesn’t fit into any formation we play. They should have just sold Darmian in the summer regardless of the RB situation.

Woodward shouldn’t have anything to do with transfer strategy, contracts or negotiations. He’s been taken to the cleaners so many times.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
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I am 100% behind the club, my loyalty to the owners, managers, players and ex players depends on who they serve(d) the club in the past, now and in the future.
 

Van Piorsing

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Yup. Basically create a logical tree of hierarchy where competent people are appointed for departments they're suited to perform and not other way around but this time men with football vision in charge of every football aspect.

Would be nice if Woodward and Glazers could ensure global supporter base they'll support new manager with resources and some sort of protection from pesky media, that way the fanbase can sustain less divided with less disinfo spreading every season.
 

Marnsky

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Well I agree. I think there is a big issue with scouting.

Mourinho has signed Micky, Lindelof and Fred. The three transfers is about £110m combined. When you spend that amount of money on one player they should slot straight into the first 11. They shouldn’t need to be slowly bedded into the team. If they do you simply haven’t bought well. A full scouting assessment would factor in how they would cope in a new country and their mentality.

The turnover of players simply isn’t quick enough and that’s down to the insane contracts these players are on. They don’t want to leave, do you blame them? Why would a player want to leave one of the biggest clubs in the world on money they would not get at another club just to be a guaranteed starter.

The likes of Jones, Smalling, Young, Mata, Fellaini, Darmian and Rojo should have all been sold by now. Mata is a good player but he doesn’t fit into any formation we play. They should have just sold Darmian in the summer regardless of the RB situation.

Woodward shouldn’t have anything to do with transfer strategy, contracts or negotiations. He’s been taken to the cleaners so many times.
100% This. To replace those mentioned above, I wish we could sign De ligt, Lucas Paqueta, fekir, ndombele and Rabiot(on a free) to replace fallaini (while we sell him). I know wishful thinking. Never going to happen. But I do believe with the right formation, coaching and at least an attacking style of play we would be competing again.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
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Well I agree. I think there is a big issue with scouting.

Mourinho has signed Micky, Lindelof and Fred. The three transfers is about £110m combined. When you spend that amount of money on one player they should slot straight into the first 11. They shouldn’t need to be slowly bedded into the team. If they do you simply haven’t bought well. A full scouting assessment would factor in how they would cope in a new country and their mentality.

The turnover of players simply isn’t quick enough and that’s down to the insane contracts these players are on. They don’t want to leave, do you blame them? Why would a player want to leave one of the biggest clubs in the world on money they would not get at another club just to be a guaranteed starter.

The likes of Jones, Smalling, Young, Mata, Fellaini, Darmian and Rojo should have all been sold by now. Mata is a good player but he doesn’t fit into any formation we play. They should have just sold Darmian in the summer regardless of the RB situation.

Woodward shouldn’t have anything to do with transfer strategy, contracts or negotiations. He’s been taken to the cleaners so many times.
I don't think the issue is with scouting but more with the system United is currently relying upon.

If I recall Woodward's interview a few years back correctly, United's system is simple. The manager comes up with a list and the CEO tries to sign them up. That's might look good on paper but in reality its not

a- managers have already too much on their hands to actually scout players. Sure, someone like SAF would have his own people in place to do the work. However, that huge net of staff require loads of time to build. Modern managers won't have the contacts or the time needed to build that net as they tend to hop from one club to the other with clubs providing them different access to power. Sure under the current system, the manager can easily keep the previous administration's scouts in place. However, they have no obligation to listen to them and as explained in the next point they have little motivation to do so.

b- the old type of manager who actually cares about the club's future because he dreams of staying at the club until he retires is a dying breed. Similarly to players, managers tend to love moving around and get experiences elsewhere. Thus given the choice, the manager will always go for the safe option ie established players whom he can trust because his aim is to win not to build a team for the future. That's not necessarily what is good for the team (think of Fellaini, Sanchez, Bastian, Willian on crazy fees etc). Also this sort of system is open for abuse as the manager might be friends with agents and would buy players not because of their characteristics but merely because of who represents them. For example we signed 3 Mino players, under Mou 2 of which the manager already have problems with as they lacked/lack the characteristics he wants in a player. SAF himself once said that he would never sign a Mino player irrespective how good that player was.

Most successful clubs which work on a budget tend to create compartments which speak with one another but are independent from one another. This system has the advantage that one can easily pinpoint the club's weaknesses and act on them. For example, if the club keeps signing duds or tend to overpays players than the manager can't really be blamed for it. Also having specialised and experienced people in every role tend to improve efficiency. Juventus tend to sign 6-7 players each year and they get rid of the deadwood on a similar rate. They do so because their CEO is experienced enough not to give players ridiculous salaries and there are people in place to quickly pinpoint the deadwood and get rid of it. You won't see players on ridiculous salaries overstaying at Juventus simply because the manager has an emotional attachment to them. The reason to that is that the DOF will step in and start asking why someone whose being as a top player isn't producing as so. For example Del Piero had to take a massive pay cut when he was in his 30s to remain at the club.

Communication is still key though. The last thing you need is to have a situation similar to Inter during Mickey's time when the manager would ask for a striker only to end up with 3 left backs. I have a feeling that United suffered a dip in communication last year. Else how can anyone explain Woody's decision to give Mou a contract extension only for him not to support him in the transfer market?

TBF I don't really blame United for not putting this system in place while Mou was around. After all, Mou's hatred toward the DOF system is almost legendary. He had arguments with Valdano and he hated Emenalo with a passion. However, if Mou gets sacked then there's no real excuse not to reform the club's system for good.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Former players

I know that they love the club however they have absolutely no idea what's going on and they certainly have no idea how clubs usually operate. Most of them had been with one club and under one manager for most of their lives. SAF created a safe environment for them shielding them from the harsh realities of football which rely on success not empty morals. Which explains why none of them was able to become a half decent manager.

Solution

Its time we appoint one of them in the board in a role very similar to what Nedved has at Juventus. That would give these guys an idea of what's really going on, instead of keeping in the dark only for them to come up with wrong conclusions.
I like this solution.

We do have Nicky B. in the youth/reserve level, but I doubt he's given more exposure on how the clubs internally works.

What's Nedved's role at Juventus?