Worst drop off performance wise after a ballon d'or win

[Gehrman]

Should have played for free at Barca for a year, not like he needs the cash. He obviously doesn’t want to be at PSG and the $$$ doesn’t motivate him.

I don't think it's ever happened in history that the greatest players turn down massive wages. They said he was willing to half his wages, but whether it was against la liga rules or not, I don't know if that was all bullshit. Most players go with what the market is willing to offer them.

 

[Red the Bear]

I think people in charge of rewards like this have a moral obligation. There are scumbags in all sports and in all layers of society, but these shouldn't be lifted to glory and idolized.
Early 17th century Italy is not the best parallell to the world today though, and Carvaggio died on the run with a deathsentence hanging over him.

And his art is still celebrated and revered to this day, there is a clear line to be drawn between a man's personal mishaps and their professional achievements. For example that's like not using someone's invention because they were indecent in their life.

We can praise someone's achievements while also recognizing their personal and private misdemeanor, Glorifying one doesn't mean Glorifying the other.

 

[Red the Bear]

I'm sorry what?

Let's not re-write history please - he most certainly was something to write home about. If he was United we'd have been raving about him. Owen fell off a cliff once his hamstrings went during his time at Madrid. Michael Owen from the time he burst on the scene in his second season for Liverpool he'd benched Robbie Fowler who's powers were waning and at the age of 18 and cemented himself as the first team striker. He was a generational talent and was 10x the player Greenwood and Rashford are. His pace was absolutely electric and he had the close control to match. What's more his finishing was clinical as they come. Once he lost his speed he wasn't even quarter the player, much like Torres. I mean, go and watch his goal for England vs the Argies, I remember him scoring quite a few like that for pool where he'd beat 3/4 players and finish with unerring accuracy.

That was an exaggeration on my part and I concede that he was indeed a generational talent, but the point stands he was by no means the world's greatest player in 2001.

 

[adexkola]

True, But then he had a strong finish to the season.

Absolutely.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

This. Also in the champions league final he wasn't anything special. 2004-2005 was peak Ronaldinho and after that he had a massive drop off.

I don’t agree, he was great in the whole CL knockout stage up until the final. He had a great 05/06 season. Watch the semi-final against a very strong Milan team again one month earlier. Lots of great players have average finals. He gradually started to decline the following year.

 

[Son]

You can say after his 7th record win at 34 it doesn't mean much. Many great players retire at that age or go the MLS or something like that. But it's still been quite a drop off.

The guy is in semi retirement. Give him a break he’s already proven it time and time again to not be considered like the others mentioned.

In the one game he featured against a top team this season he beat City with his brilliance so you may be very premature in your assessment considering he ‘could’ and probably will let’s face it star for PSG at the business end of the season.

Name almost every single other player in history and you see a drop off before or around 34 it’s hardly anything to write home about.

 

[iHicksy]

That was an exaggeration on my part and I concede that he was indeed a generational talent, but the point stands he was by no means the world's greatest player in 2001.

Agreed. That was certainly a weird one.

 

[Pretzels81]

Kaka by a huge margin.

 

[Pretzels81]

Rivaldo springs to mind. Best player on the planet in 1999, naff afterwards and wasn’t long before he was farmed out to Milan.

Except that he peaked in 99-00 and won the WC 2002 as one of the biggest stars of Brazil. He was better than Owen in 2001.

 

[crossy1686]

Cannavaro? He had a torrid time at Madrid after winning the World Cup with Italy.

 

[Morty_]

Cannavaro? He had a torrid time at Madrid after winning the World Cup with Italy.

Yeah, its a long time ago, but i can recall he was something of a joke for RM.

 

[Gehrman]

The guy is in semi retirement. Give him a break he’s already proven it time and time again to not be considered like the others mentioned.

In the one game he featured against a top team this season he beat City with his brilliance so you may be very premature in your assessment considering he ‘could’ and probably will let’s face it star for PSG at the business end of the season.

Name almost every single other player in history and you see a drop off before or around 34 it’s hardly anything to write home about.

What assesment? I personally don't feel Messi needs to prove himself. He can easily retire anytime and be considered the greatest of all time by many fans and footballers. But I was just responding the thread title and Messi is a candidate so far although taking his age into consideration it's impressive he managed to nick the last one.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Anybody mentioned Cannavaro yet? Probably a bit undeserved in the first place but all I can remember of him once he moved to Madrid was being shit.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Messi. Although he shouldn’t even have won the last one anyway.

 

[2 man midfield]

Except that he peaked in 99-00 and won the WC 2002 as one of the biggest stars of Brazil. He was better than Owen in 2001.

still a pretty alarming decline though

 

[Pretzels81]

Anybody mentioned Cannavaro yet? Probably a bit undeserved in the first place but all I can remember of him once he moved to Madrid was being shit.

He was instrumental in LaLiga titles of 06-08. Did what he could against Barca in 08-09 season, finishing 2nd.

 

[crossy1686]

Anybody mentioned Cannavaro yet? Probably a bit undeserved in the first place but all I can remember of him once he moved to Madrid was being shit.

I was more than convinced he was doping when you compared his performances for Italy in the World Cup to those at Madrid. Also, for a guy who was 5'6, he had one hell of a leap on him.

 

[JPRouve]

still a pretty alarming decline though

Alarming sounds like an overreaction. He basically declined three seasons after the Ballon d'Or. That's fairly normal when you are talking about a player in his late 20s.

 

[JPRouve]

I was more than convinced he was doping when you compared his performances for Italy in the World Cup to those at Madrid. Also, for a guy who was 5'6, he had one hell of a leap on him.

Cannavaro was on the decline for years, he had a good tournament but he wasn't the best player in the italian side let alone the WC. But if you want an example of a player that declined quickly it will be Rio Ferdinand, it took around a year for him to not even be good enough for QPR.

 

[Gio]

Cannavaro was on the decline for years, he had a good tournament but he wasn't the best player in the italian side let alone the WC. But if you want an example of a player that declined quickly it will be Rio Ferdinand, it took around a year for him to not even be good enough for QPR.

I dunno, he was the highest rated (newspaper ratings) CB in Serie A in 2004/05 and 2005/06. Absolutely immense in the World Cup. Then a bad hangover the next season at Madrid and, although he picked up, he never got that elite level back.

 

[JPRouve]

I dunno, he was the highest rated (newspaper ratings) CB in Serie A in 2004/05 and 2005/06. Absolutely immense in the World Cup. Then a bad hangover the next season at Madrid and, although he picked up, he never got that elite level back.

But he was on the decline, I'm not telling you that he was bad but he wasn't the same defender he wasn't at his peak either. The same thing happened with Rio, Blanc or even Desailly where there was a point where they were good but on the decline and then a big drop.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

I was more than convinced he was doping when you compared his performances for Italy in the World Cup to those at Madrid. Also, for a guy who was 5'6, he had one hell of a leap on him.

Quite a different defensive culture between Italy and Spain back then in the 80s-90s and into mid-00s before things got more homogenous tactically. I'm not sure how much that had to do with Cannavaro's failure as he had Capello there initially and was also getting old, but there were a lot of flops in general between Spanish and Italian players going to each others leagues. I think a lot of Italian defenders would have struggled with the higher-lines and less organised approach La Liga teams tended to have back then, especially if they were older when they moved.

 

[Lay]

Cannavaro. I didn’t think he deserved to win it anyway as he didn’t have a great season. My memories of him at Madrid his being on the floor as a striker runs past him.

 

[troylocker]

still a pretty alarming decline though

He still scored 36 and assisted 10 from the midfield for Barca in the 00/01 season and singlehandedly took them to the CL with his amazing late bicycle kick winner against Valencia in the final round that season (they won 3-2, he scored all 3 and they qualified for CL on better goal difference than Valencia). He scored 5 and assisted 1 and was instrumental for Brazil in their 2002 WC win. He also managed to produce the most unforgettable, most funny, most sad and most pathetic moment in that WC with his brainfart against Turkey.
Not the most alarming decline in the history of Ballon d'or winners I would say. When he left for Italy after that WC though.....

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

For all the people saying Messi, just to note that he’s the 6th best player in Ligue 1 on WhoScored this season with a 7.36 average rating, while he hasn’t even played a single CL game since he won the Ballon d’Or. You’d think he’d turned into a pub player or something the way some people go on.

 

[troylocker]

For all the people saying Messi, just to note that he’s the 6th best player in Ligue 1 on WhoScored this season with a 7.36 average rating, while he hasn’t even played a single CL game since he won the Ballon d’Or. You’d think he’d turned into a pub player or something the way some people go on.

First of all: How can him being rated as 6th best in Ligue 1 be used as defense for him winning the Ballon D'or? It's a pretty long way from being #1 in the world to #6 in French football.
Whoscored ratings doesn't mean much though, their rating matrix is heavily biased towards dribblers and minutes. As much as I love stats, ratings from whoscored is extremely flawed. They are good at counting, but not at rating. I agree he's not played much football after he won the award, but this season he's in my opinion been performing several tiers below his former self and his current best rivals, and should never have won the award in the first place (Lewa should, beating that Muller record was enough on its own).

PS! I've seen people using Ronaldo's avg. Redcaf-rating on this forum to defend him as well, unbelievable stuff.

 

[Gehrman]

For all the people saying Messi, just to note that he’s the 6th best player in Ligue 1 on WhoScored this season with a 7.36 average rating, while he hasn’t even played a single CL game since he won the Ballon d’Or. You’d think he’d turned into a pub player or something the way some people go on.

Are sure he hasn't played a CL game since he won the Ballon D'or? Edit: He scored 2 goals against club brugge in december.

Apart from City away i've havn't really seen him play really shit for a while. He's just very average for Messi standards, but also sooner or later he's age gotta give, it might seem like a poor excuse, but many are past his best at his age. Zidane retired at 34. Messi could have retired with his Ballon D'or win at 34 as well.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Are sure he hasn't played a CL game since he won the Ballon D'or? Edit: He scored 2 goals against club brugge in december.

Apart from City away i've havn't really seen him play really shit for a while. He's just very average for Messi standards, but also sooner or later he's age gotta give, it might seem like a poor excuse, but many are past his best at his age. Zidane retired at 34. Messi could have retired with his Ballon D'or win at 34 as well.

Okay apologies, I thought the Ballon d'Or was after that. But there you go, he scored 2 goals even better.

First of all: How can him being rated as 6th best in Ligue 1 be used as defense for him winning the Ballon D'or? It's a pretty long way from being #1 in the world to #6 in French football.
Whoscored ratings doesn't mean much though, their rating matrix is heavily biased towards dribblers and minutes. As much as I love stats, ratings from whoscored is extremely flawed. They are good at counting, but not at rating. I agree he's not played much football after he won the award, but this season he's in my opinion been performing several tiers below his former self and his current best rivals, and should never have won the award in the first place (Lewa should, beating that Muller record was enough on its own).

PS! I've seen people using Ronaldo's avg. Redcaf-rating on this forum to defend him as well, unbelievable stuff.

WhoScored is not perfect but Lewandowski is not a dribbler and he is best on WhoScored. The top 5 on WhoScored are Lewandowski, Haaland, Mbappé, Salah and Vinicius. Would anyone have any major issue with them being the 5 best players in Europe on form? They usually get the big picture right.

WhoScored thinks Lewandowski is the best player in Europe. I think Lewandowski is too and I strongly argued he should win the Ballon d'Or. I don't think Messi should have won it.

And for what it's worth, that WhoScored rating is actually quite a drop for Messi, who usually tops it across Europe. So I fully agree he has declined this season. Just saying I don't think it's the worst drop off after a Ballon d'Or win though. It's too early to say and also there are other candidates.

 

[Gehrman]

Okay apologies, I thought the Ballon d'Or was after that. But there you go, he scored 2 goals even better.



WhoScored is not perfect but Lewandowski is not a dribbler and he is best on WhoScored. The top 5 on WhoScored are Lewandowski, Haaland, Mbappé, Salah and Vinicius. Would anyone have any major issue with them being the 5 best players in Europe on form? They usually get the big picture right.

WhoScored thinks Lewandowski is the best player in Europe. I think Lewandowski is too and I strongly argued he should win the Ballon d'Or. I don't think Messi should have won it.

And for what it's worth, that WhoScored rating is actually quite a drop for Messi, who usually tops it across Europe. So I fully agree he has declined this season. Just saying I don't think it's the worst drop off after a Ballon d'Or win though. It's too early to say and also there are other candidates.

Messi hasn't dribbled much this season though apart from that 1 game where he beat 12 players during the game.

 

[giorno]

Quite a different defensive culture between Italy and Spain back then in the 80s-90s and into mid-00s before things got more homogenous tactically. I'm not sure how much that had to do with Cannavaro's failure as he had Capello there initially and was also getting old, but there were a lot of flops in general between Spanish and Italian players going to each others leagues. I think a lot of Italian defenders would have struggled with the higher-lines and less organised approach La Liga teams tended to have back then, especially if they were older when they moved.

Yep. And even Capello had to adapt to Spain. Couldn't play like his teams did in Italy, wouldn't have finished the season

Cannavaro wasn't bad for us either, just old and unprotected vs the protection he had at Juventus and the WC

 

[Fear Derg]

How is Michael Owen not getting a mention?

 

[hatchetmac]

Charlton was dogshit in 1967

Jesus how old are you if you remember that?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

edit: MISREAD.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The same thing happened with Rio, Blanc or even Desailly where there was a point where they were good but on the decline and then a big drop.

Rio - for me - had a significant drop followed by a resurgence: when he managed to adjust his game to his physical state (his back problems, not least, but also a general decline in terms of speed and so forth), his level went up again: he obviously didn't get back to prime standards, but still. He went from looking pretty much finished (that was the worst case scenario, you could say) - to looking pretty damn good for a player his age.

Blanc, by contrast, dropped down to a level he more or less stayed on (until he retired) - and that level wasn't very good, at least not consistently (he had the odd game where some of his old greatness would shine through, but on the whole he was a shadow of his former self).

 

[Lay]

How is Michael Owen not getting a mention?

I thought he had a good season after that? Though his career plummeted after coming back from Madrid.

 

[JPRouve]

Rio - for me - had a significant drop followed by a resurgence: when he managed to adjust his game to his physical state (his back problems, not least, but also a general decline in terms of speed and so forth), his level went up again: he obviously didn't get back to prime standards, but still. He went from looking pretty much finished (that was the worst case scenario, you could say) - to looking pretty damn good for a player his age.

Blanc, by contrast, dropped down to a level he more or less stayed on (until he retired) - and that level wasn't very good, at least not consistently (he had the odd game where some of his old greatness would shine through, but on the whole he was a shadow of his former self).

I'm talking about Rio's last 18-24 months, he had no resurgence. He went from a declined but decent player to an absolute pumpkin.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm talking about Rio's last 18-24 months, he had no resurgence. He went from a declined but decent player to an absolute pumpkin.

Yes, that's true - he was pretty much a pumpkin for United post-SAF (as was Vidic, for that matter) and then his final stint for QPR was just...nothing.

So - yes - he retired as an absolute shadow of his former self. But - unlike some other players - he did have a resurgence after an initial (steep) decline as a player post his prime.