That team looks pretty great, to be fair. I'm a fan.
Would 352 solve many of our square peg problems?
- Thread starter Igor Drefljak
- Start date
Walter Mazzari's Napoli, who did well both domestically and in Europe, was in turn Conte's inspiration. The first game in which Conte actually played a 3-5-2 with Juve was away against Napoli, in order to mirror Mazzarri.No it didn't. Juventus were the most notable team in Europe already using 3 at the back (managed at the time by Conte, who knew?) but there were plenty of others. Guardiola even used 3 at the back from time to time at Barca. England caught on to an already developing tactical trend, it did not originate there. Stop trying to make out that Van Gaal triggered some sort of tactical revolution
Several other decent Serie A sides were playing a 3-5-2 at the time. Udinese comes to mind, including during the season they reached the CL a few years ago.
Looks good on paper, but i doubt we will move to a back 3 as our standard formation. Maybe a few games next season if we have to adapt or change something.
I didn't know that but I'm not surprised. I also would have said Bielsa heavily influenced a wider use of a back three in both Spain and South America (although it wasn't his only system). My larger point was that the claim that Van Gaal suddenly caused the world to rediscover the back three was unfounded.
This is how I would play us. Whether Jose fancies it is another story.
I think the temptation to play 3 at the back comes from either not having very good full backs so wing backs of converted midfielders can be used or lack of trust in 2 central defenders. Obviously in a 3 one of the CBs needs to be able to step forward and play the ball into midfield e.g. Luiz for Chelsea. For United I'd prefer to play a flat back 4 with decent full backs.
The problem in the system is a level of inflexiblity. you rely on the wingbacks who can't be as attacking as wingers/ wide forwards. you've dropped a midfielder or attacking player to allow a 5 at the back when defending so can suffer in terms of contested midfield procession or numbers in attack.
@Igor Drefljak i like your team but you've picked a team to play a flat back 4 and ignored that Perisic isn't a wingback. That's not as bad as Van Gaal and Di Maria to be fair but that team looks way more defensive if Shaw or Young is on the left.
The problem in the system is a level of inflexiblity. you rely on the wingbacks who can't be as attacking as wingers/ wide forwards. you've dropped a midfielder or attacking player to allow a 5 at the back when defending so can suffer in terms of contested midfield procession or numbers in attack.
@Igor Drefljak i like your team but you've picked a team to play a flat back 4 and ignored that Perisic isn't a wingback. That's not as bad as Van Gaal and Di Maria to be fair but that team looks way more defensive if Shaw or Young is on the left.
He should be booked for timewasting if he crosses the halfway line, he's that useless going forward.
I would love it but we simply don't have the personnel for it at the minute.
Valencia can play RWB
Rojo and Bailly can play in a 3
However there's no way Smalling, Jones and Shaw would fit into this system. Shaw not good enough going forward and the former aren't good enough on the ball. We need someone like Van Dijk and Mendy.
Ashley Young could probably be a good LWB. Our best option there.
Valencia can play RWB
Rojo and Bailly can play in a 3
However there's no way Smalling, Jones and Shaw would fit into this system. Shaw not good enough going forward and the former aren't good enough on the ball. We need someone like Van Dijk and Mendy.
Ashley Young could probably be a good LWB. Our best option there.
I sure hope not.
If Griezmann comes, I see 2 up top. I'm warmer to a 352 than a 442. Mourinho has tested the 352 a couple of times this season, and I think that's what we're looking at with Perisic and Griezmann seemingly coming into the fold.
surely if jose was planning this we would of seen signs of it last season? it would of benefited us more with zaltan and rashford than greizmann and rashford . you can say that we did not have the players for this system but young would of done a job as lwb with blind the left of the 3 at the back. jose tends to like 1 up front also so i just cant see it .
Didn't we play 352 vs Chelsea at home, they didn't know what hit them.
With the same players, could you not play a 442 diamond?
You have to have exceptionally good attacking fullbacks for the diamond to work.
Mou is interested in Perisic because he provides width. He won't ruin it all by removing the flank men altogether. Mou will go for a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 hybrid with Perisic stretching defenses wide for Mkhitaryan, Griezmann and co to act
I was thinking this myself but the midfield two has to do a lot of defensive work ie. Kante - Matic at Chelsea and Dembele - Wanyama at Tottenham. Now if we bought a more defensive minded midfielder like Fabinho for example and pushed Pogba up into Mata's position, I feel it would give more balance and give Pogba a lot of freedom. But then we may struggle to see much from Mata/Mkhitaryan etc.......its a hard one.
Yeah, I remember a few months back I made the same point. The full backs would have to be brilliant going forward and tracking back.
Basically you'd need Juve's fullbacks, even Valencia who I like isn't productive enough in that system.
I think it'd be good against midtable sides. Spurs do all out-attacks with this formation, where both wing-backs try to get involved at the same time
Agreed. I said the same about Valencia yesterday. Although he supports the attack well by stretching defenses, his actual assists/goals contribution is poor when you consider how often he gets up there.
Of course it would but it isn't Mourinho's system.
I would actually like to see us adapt to something like the below, where we play a midfield 3 rather than a number 10, with Pogba playing in his favoured position of the left of the three and as the player with the most license to attack. Griezmann can also play between the lines and more of a second striker kind of role. It might function better with someone like Lukaku or Belotti to partner Griezmann up front.
De Gea
Bailly - Van Dijk - Rojo
Valencia-------------Shaw
Herrera -Dier- Pogba
Griezmann Rashford
Bailly - Van Dijk - Rojo
Valencia-------------Shaw
Herrera -Dier- Pogba
Griezmann Rashford
I would like to see 4-1-4-1 tried. We would need an anchor/dm sitting in front of the defence. This would free Pogba and Herrera to advance. We could play with full backs and proper attacking wingers (Bale?), to a proper targetman/CF. Obviously this would be better buying Bellotti or a Costa rather than Griezmann, and Rashford as backup.
It's a good formation and can be good in some games, but Jose has played most of his life with 4-2-3-1 with 4-3-3 as an alternative when he wants more defensive approach so he'll most probably build the team on the 4-2-3-1.
I quite like the Pochentino hybrid 3421 I think that 2 behind you'd get the best out of Mkhitaryan and Mata.
Have to say I find people thinking Valencia and especially Shaw can't play as Wingbacks quite startling. Even saw someone say Shaw is useless going forward, suddenly thought I'd been transported to bizarro land. I would think you'd get the best out of both in that formation. Have Valencia more reserved as his creative output or effect is about as usesful as a penis flavoured lollipop.
Shaw given more attacking licence would certainly do some damage.
Have to say I find people thinking Valencia and especially Shaw can't play as Wingbacks quite startling. Even saw someone say Shaw is useless going forward, suddenly thought I'd been transported to bizarro land. I would think you'd get the best out of both in that formation. Have Valencia more reserved as his creative output or effect is about as usesful as a penis flavoured lollipop.
Shaw given more attacking licence would certainly do some damage.
I really don't see us settling on a single formation and system. Jose is quite a proactive manager tactically, he's successful because he's very good at negating opposition tactics.
I think that will be the theme next season, the whole square peg round holes thing won't be an issue as we strengthen in depth and have enough square pegs and round pegs to fit in various systems of square and round holes.
I think that will be the theme next season, the whole square peg round holes thing won't be an issue as we strengthen in depth and have enough square pegs and round pegs to fit in various systems of square and round holes.
To be honest that's very defensive, 5 defenders & 3 midfielders. Only 2 attacking players in the whole team. Pogba might have freedom I guess but it won't help us score goals at home!
I've been considering starting a thread on this, but I might as well lay my questions out here. I wasn't around when the back 3 was a dominant formation, recently the only times I've really seen it used is with Conte's Juventus/Chelsea and Vangle's Netherlands, and those weren't weekly viewings.
What exactly is the strength of that system and why would you want to use it? For example, is a 343 not just a modified 433 where you have an extra defender instead of a midfielder? And 3412 just a modified version of the midfield diamond? Is this formation simply for defensive stability? I can see a lot of control/attacking intent being lost by replacing a midfielder with a defender.
If someone could enlighten me I would appreciate it
What exactly is the strength of that system and why would you want to use it? For example, is a 343 not just a modified 433 where you have an extra defender instead of a midfielder? And 3412 just a modified version of the midfield diamond? Is this formation simply for defensive stability? I can see a lot of control/attacking intent being lost by replacing a midfielder with a defender.
If someone could enlighten me I would appreciate it
@Donovan_red7
For me the 3412 offers in both areas. Most teams play with a lone striker and probably two wingers. The 3 at the back for the most part take the load of the strikers while the wingbacks will cover the opposition wingers. Now if lets say it goes down the left hand side of the pitch, Valencia will be there and Bailly can come out to offer support.
Effectively when defending you'll end up with a back 5.
This means that Pogba and Herrera can support the defence but are not vital to winning the ball back as there should be sufficient cover.
When we do have the ball, it gives the LWB and RWB a license to be the wide men and stretch the pitch. Pogba and Herrera can support attacks knowing that their is a solid foundation behind them if a counter springs.
With our wing play being useless this season, having an extra striker as well as a player just behind gives us bodies in the box while Pogba can link up and Herrera staying a bit deep. The wing backs stretch the pitch up top which should crowd the final third and press the team back.
For me the 3412 offers in both areas. Most teams play with a lone striker and probably two wingers. The 3 at the back for the most part take the load of the strikers while the wingbacks will cover the opposition wingers. Now if lets say it goes down the left hand side of the pitch, Valencia will be there and Bailly can come out to offer support.
Effectively when defending you'll end up with a back 5.
This means that Pogba and Herrera can support the defence but are not vital to winning the ball back as there should be sufficient cover.
When we do have the ball, it gives the LWB and RWB a license to be the wide men and stretch the pitch. Pogba and Herrera can support attacks knowing that their is a solid foundation behind them if a counter springs.
With our wing play being useless this season, having an extra striker as well as a player just behind gives us bodies in the box while Pogba can link up and Herrera staying a bit deep. The wing backs stretch the pitch up top which should crowd the final third and press the team back.
I have used a version of it with teams I have coached. I like it.I've been considering starting a thread on this, but I might as well lay my questions out here. I wasn't around when the back 3 was a dominant formation, recently the only times I've really seen it used is with Conte's Juventus/Chelsea and Vangle's Netherlands, and those weren't weekly viewings.
What exactly is the strength of that system and why would you want to use it? For example, is a 343 not just a modified 433 where you have an extra defender instead of a midfielder? And 3412 just a modified version of the midfield diamond? Is this formation simply for defensive stability? I can see a lot of control/attacking intent being lost by replacing a midfielder with a defender.
If someone could enlighten me I would appreciate it
I prefer to think of it as being 3 at the back. You have to work out why you might want or need 3 at the back. For me its been about being able to free up an extra player for up front. I prefer to be able to play with 2 strikers if possible. It also means i can keep 3 midfielders in the center of the park and not lose width.
It means I can play with 2 strikers an attacking midfielder and also two wide players.
I dont use the wingbacks version, I use 2 defensive mids in front of the back 3. If one of the back three gets drawn out wide to deal with a wide attacker then one of the defensive mids will drop in to become another cb. Effectively you end up with a 4 1 situation. I dont like using wingbacks because i like my teams to play with width and like the wingers to get forward. Also the level of teams I coach dont have the fitness levels the top pro players have and cant handle having to track all the way back to defend and then get all the way forward to attack.
The wingers will come back if the opposition fullbacks come forward but they usually cant get forward because my wingers have them pushed back.
For me its not so much about the formation but what each player has do do in a given situation.
The most important question is why you want three at the back.
The version I use is not often being used at pro level, that is usually the wingback version.
It's not going to happen, although 4-4-2 might.
Pogba would be left too deep in this formation.
I still think a solid world class deep midfielder would really be the game changer for our 433. The said midfielder would stay deep as protection and allow Pogba to venture forward more freely, add to that Herrera's energy would mean that apart from the 2 CBs and one FB, we'll have the DM and Herrera who can fall back and cover spaces if we lose possession, which is an important thing in the way Jose likes to setup.
Apart from Pogba and the front 3, this would allow the fullbacks (one at a time) to join the attack. I have no idea who this DM could be, I'd love to have Verratti but I'm sure there are other players out there like Fabinho or maybe even an experienced player who can come in and do the job for us.
I still think a solid world class deep midfielder would really be the game changer for our 433. The said midfielder would stay deep as protection and allow Pogba to venture forward more freely, add to that Herrera's energy would mean that apart from the 2 CBs and one FB, we'll have the DM and Herrera who can fall back and cover spaces if we lose possession, which is an important thing in the way Jose likes to setup.
Apart from Pogba and the front 3, this would allow the fullbacks (one at a time) to join the attack. I have no idea who this DM could be, I'd love to have Verratti but I'm sure there are other players out there like Fabinho or maybe even an experienced player who can come in and do the job for us.
He wouldnt have to be, things arent rigid and set in stone with how teams play and formations. 3 at the back would help free up Pogba if it was set up to do so. Formations dont restrict players, playing instructions do.
that system only works if you have 2 defensive midfielrs who are amongst the very best at what they do
kante and matic
pogba and herrera doesn't work.
kante and matic
pogba and herrera doesn't work.
Why do you guys have such rigid ideas on how football is played?
Fortunately the worlds best coaches dont think with such limitations and lack of creativity.
I don't see the point in adding another CB. Defense hasn't been an issue, so why add a defensive player?
It doesnt actually, it allows us to play two up front
Right but Perisic isn't a wing back. And we'd be playing with 3 CBs instead of two.
Not a fan.