You can see it in the Leicester game, he was weak in so many areas of football. Just getting him to control the ball and do a simple pass was so damn slow, he struggles.
Xavi (Spanish Lego Pep) | Barca manager - and will be next season - or will he?
- Thread starter Samid
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
He wasn't right about Pogba because Pogba is obviously very talented. He was also wrong about Mbappe, if he even said that.
He's doing an amazing job at Barca so far though.
I can’t say I’ve seen much of Barcelona but isn’t Xavi Being hyped up a bit to much at this stage? I mean Ole also went on a crazy run when he first took over at Utd which got him the job permanently and we all know how that turned out in the end. At least wait and see if he wins the Europa League first before proclaiming him to be the next Pep Guardiola.
Ole did well by playing counter-attacking football. That's relatively easy to set up and other clubs were underestimating United because of how horrible the club became under Mourinho.
Xavi managed to do well by dominating other team in possession and etc, including a Real Madrid side.
You need to stop looking at results and start looking at how the team played in the match.
I disagree, Pogba isn't that talented. He does a few things very well, and a few things badly.
He's a very talented player.
No disrespect, but you'd probably understand better why people are excited if you watched the games more. It's nothing like Ole's run.
Having said that, he's still a very young and inexperienced coach and the proof of the pudding will be in the winning of ligas and CLs. A big ask. In that regard I see your point.
Right about Pogba but very very wrong about Mbappe. That kid is pure talent.
He's 29. At some stage players shouldn't be talked about if they're talented or not.
Pogba is very talented, but talent doesn't equal to success.
I feel like people who think Pogba is physical, are stereotyping him for being black and tall, if he was white or asian i doubt people would call him a physical player.
Aside from his usual 3-4 runs per game i don't see how he is a physical player, Mbappé is more physical than Pogba(and more talented as well).
At what?
Pogba has had loads of success. It's not just talk of talent
What are his talents then? Aside from long passes.
I think you need to watch him play a bit more. Preferably for teams other than Manchester United.
I thought he was going to be a failure.
I imagined it would play a trick on him to have been designated as a savior so early, and that he would not be able to live up to expectations.
I assumed that they had already fulfilled their quota of "inexperienced coach who is suddenly a great success" and thought that Xavi could be their "Solari".
In addition, they all seem super happy and all the signings seem to work, as if touched by a magic wand.
I imagined it would play a trick on him to have been designated as a savior so early, and that he would not be able to live up to expectations.
I assumed that they had already fulfilled their quota of "inexperienced coach who is suddenly a great success" and thought that Xavi could be their "Solari".
In addition, they all seem super happy and all the signings seem to work, as if touched by a magic wand.
He has a ball control second to none in all aspects of the handling: Receiving, manipulating the ball, short passes, medium passes, long passes. One of the best in the world at all of this. He can also pick a pass very well.
As a bonus, he is strong in the body, is hard to pass one-on-one, can do aerial duels okayish, has a decent shot and is full of good cheer in training. All nice qualities to possess.
Why even explain it though? The guy is not looking to be convinced if he comes out with statements like 'Pogba isn't talented', I think even his biggest critics will always caveat how talented he is, and you just have to watch him for France to see it.
It doesn’t matter if he wins the Europa League or not. I have never seen such an improvement mid season in my life. We were regularly losing or drawing against the weak sides of La Liga, playing horribly, being totally humillated against strong teams and even not so strong ones like Benfica.
Now we are back dominating and beating teams like Real Madrid, Atlético de Madrid, Sevilla, Napoles, Valencia, Villareal, etc. While also playing great attacking football. We went from literally being 9th in the league, below teams like Osasuna and Rayo Vallecano to being second and trashing Real Madrid. If Xavi had started the season instead of Koeman I have no doubt we would be in the race for the league title.
The only thing that I question is that, when Koeman was still in charge, there was “no money, salaries must be reduced and we are not going to make expends”.
He goes out and Xavi comes and all out of a sudden they are able to get Ferran Torres, Adama, Aubameyang, Luuk de Jong and even Messi’s return has been gossiped.
Don’t get me wrong. I think Laporta made the right call, but he didn’t have any support for Koeman. Ronald was the hero of Barca’s first CL title and left his job with the Netherlands to take charge of one of the worst Barca of all times. He went through serious BS and although he was still responsible for the poor management of the time, he still had the balls to compromise, something that Xavi even rejected when Bartomeu asked him.
Anyways, Xavi has shown brilliance after his tumultuous start. If Madrid were like 6 or 8 points closer I would have not discarded Barca for the title this season, but if they are able to make the extensions to Gavi and Araujo, they will be contenders next year. Camp Nou even applauded Dembele and he returned the gesture, something I never imagined a few months back.
I agree, to be a legend it seems to me they have always treated him with a bit of disdain, and Koeman himself complained that now there is money.
He was brave. I think that Mingueza, Nico and Gavi debuted with him and gave Pedri a lot of confidence.
They are very strongly linked to Lewandowski right now. Apparently Xavi wants a proper CF
Koeman was shit though. He was Hodgsoning them.
No.
Xavi is not on a run, he's not on a patch, you should really watch them a few games. The team is young, they're invested, they're playing with confidence not just because they look up to Xavi the Barca legend, but because he knows what he's doing. He might not be the next Pep, but if anyone can be the next Pep, it's him, and this isn't even premature.
You are probably right. I’m frustrated with him myself, but when things are so wildly portrayed… well, I bit.
So after 7 months as a head coach in a top league you are saying that a) he isn’t overhyped and b) he might win 10 leagues and 2 CL trophies, AND he is the only coach in the world that can do something like that?
Are you certain he isn’t overhyped by anyone?
Haha, it does sound silly when you put it like that, but yes all those things are correct, he might not win as many trophies as Pep has done (he had a lot of generational talents playing for him, he didn't even have to buy a lot of them).
Anyway, in terms of young and upcoming managers, if anyone can get close to Pep's domination, it's Xavi.
I'm not sure if you have watched Barca play off late, and still don't think Xavi is the real deal.
The fact that his team already has an identity, with young players, without a free hand in the transfer market, dealing with the Messi hangover, climbed from 12th to 2nd since he took over.
There's every reason for him to be overhyped.
Alright I am going to argue against this, but lets keep this friendly because I know some people get aggro to these things.
I would argue some of those you mentioned for strengths, are weaknesses.
Using the last game as an example, Pogba has a good touch? Kinda, the ball doesn't bounce off him or anything but the time it takes for him to get the ball under control and be able to pass it is horrible. It is one of the reasons he struggles so much vs pressing teams, hes slow to get the ball under control and hes slow to pass it on. Same with moving with the ball, he is slow. Hes got the skill, but hes almost clumsy with it when moving. He struggles in even slightly tight spaces.
His passing accuracy is very good, hes technically very very good with them, hes just slow at doing them a lot of the time. This is partly due to his slow decision making as well though.
With space and time he can do amazing things, and with obvious passes he will be fine, but in tough matches under pressure then he collapses and hides way too often.
Good point about the tone.
I think, when you see how he receives the ball, he has a very good and versatile technique for his receiving touch. Long passes, short passes, hard passes, curled passes, different angles, he lays them dead in an instant, the anti-Lukaku if you will.
What you notice about him using time, being dispossessed, I agree with. I don’t think it is about technique, though, which he proves time and again he has, but rather about what you say - decision making, and even more so: anticipation. He can pick a pass very well, and sometimes you see him receive, look up and just instantly ping a inch perfect fifty yarder with the perfect curl. What happens when he is with his back towards the goal, or we circulate the ball around the box, he always seems to have to take a few touches after controling the ball, or to play a safe pass, or to play a ‘wishful’ fancy pass often to nobody. That to me looks like the opposite of eg. Scholes or Bruno, who always has an idea about what might come to oass behind their back. Pogba seems often to start to think, and look, after he receives the ball, not before. That will make him look clumsy, because he is often interrupted. He’ll get trouble making good and quick decisions that way also, so maybe that’s interconnected. I think this is why he is frustrating: he has the technique of Scholes and Pirlo, and the physique of Vieira, but the anticipational awareness of neither. So he looks like he should be the best CM in history, but constantly disappoints in many situations.
If I’m onto something here, this is a player who will thrive with a predictable role in a predictable (meaning systematic) team, and when games are slower. Improvising in a high speed pressing game is not his suit.
With France, and also with Juve, he had much more of that than he ever had at United. I eould venture he is better at almost every aspect of ‘talent’ than Bruno, and he is as bold as him, but that is the difference that makes Bruno a instant hit under Ole’s reign, while Pogba under Mourinho (high expectation of players as active problem solvers) and Solskjær (believer in fairly free reigns for creative players to improvise in the attacking half, and without a DM or two that are positionally aware, disciplined and quickfooted enough to compensate for PPs lack of defensive anticipation) and Rangnick (new system, doesn’t have time and moves Pogba about because Bruno, Fred and McT gets it quicker and are safer choices in the short run).
Martial has similar issues for a forward, and it makes both of them at times look disinteresed, stupid or unbelievably clumsy and pinpoint technical at the same time, sometime they look like can opener visionaries, the next moment they seem as if they are blind or egoist.
Rashford seem also similarily challenged, so maybe it’s an issue with scouting and training culture at the club.
I think thats only part of it, and I think you used good examples with Scholes and Bruno because I think its physical, hes slow to move his body, a little clumsy, and I think that makes him weak in these areas, as the touch is only part of what is needed.
Same happened against Spain, he got pressured back more and more and basically only counter attacked. Hes limited. I think because against the right opponent he can do amazing things he gets overrated, because at the top level you want them to be able to do it against anyone. Leicester is far from the top.
Hehe. Words are like that sometimes, they gang up on you. Saying there is a reason for anything to be overhyped is a great joke about that
No, I haven’t watched Barca more than 45 mins under Xavi, so I don’t claim to know anything about his managerial skills or short comings. It’s interesting to note how both Pep and Luis Enrique from that school and are way above what you expect from ‘old players turning coaches’. It’s certainly easy to imagine Xavi, the type of player he was, and from that school, is a good candidate to become a good coach or manager.
I’ve seen enough manager come and go to think that a team playing great football under a new coach, even for a year or two, will most of the time not be sufficient proof of the coach being a generational genious like Guardiola has shown to be. Ranieri, Del Bosque, Hector Cuper, Benitez have all been made to look like world beaters by their teams in my time, but there are so many factors involved in short term success it’s almost impossible to predict who will be able to reproduce and reproduce success in their teams.
You have a point there: He is not as nimble of feet as Bruno, I agree. Yet nimble enough to tap dance his way past two or three players now and again. In different ways, too, not like one who practices one trick a million times to make it look effortless. Interesting to note that neither Scholes nor Pirlo could dribble like Pogba, nor in tight spaces - but they didn’t need to, because they knew what to do within an instant of receiving the ball, and most of the time a second or two in advance.
I think, in any case, you should admit that saying he isn’t very talented, and imply that his only talent is long passes, is a very lacking analysis. I’d say he is tecnically among the 20 most talented players in the world in 8 out of 10 aspects of what we mean by technique.
I think it’s more reasonable to conclude that, yes he has important weaknesses, but lack of bodily control isn’t really one of them, so his many clumsy moments must have other reasons. His best performances show what he is capable of, his talents. His frequent underwhelming performances shows that he has weaknesses and must be used right, if at all.
To me, he hasn’t really been worth it under Mourinho and Solskjær, not because he hasn’t contributed as much as most others when he’s been on the pitch, but because he hasn’t been suited to the coaches (particularily Mou) and the squads, he has had a lot of niggles, and a detrimental use of his agent.
Oh, and that he looks so coachable has feigned his coaches into thinking that he can be coached into the ultimate CM, making them waste alot of time trying to teach him things he seems unable to learn, instead of just going all out on a Kante or selling him to RM for €90m when we could.
I think he’s basically a nice guy and a very useful squad player, though. Just very, very frustrating.
The fact that this even needs to be said and explained is absurd to me.
He definitely has talent, but as I wrote elsewhere he has some things hes very good at, and some strong weaknesses as well.
Often those weaknesses overshadow the strengths, and this is the point, talent is a balance of strengths vs weaknesses, and if that is how you judge someone then hes really not that special. There are players with fewer strengths, but are better players naturally.
Barca provides really good footballing education as a club, not just for players, but also for any potential managers. Man-management aspect is something that can be easily learned, but only those with natural gift of personality can fully master it. So you'll need some innate charismatic personality on some level to be a good manager.Hehe. Words are like that sometimes, they gang up on you. Saying there is a reason for anything to be overhyped is a great joke about that
No, I haven’t watched Barca more than 45 mins under Xavi, so I don’t claim to know anything about his managerial skills or short comings. It’s interesting to note how both Pep and Luis Enrique from that school and are way above what you expect from ‘old players turning coaches’. It’s certainly easy to imagine Xavi, the type of player he was, and from that school, is a good candidate to become a good coach or manager.
But what can be taught is how to think about footballing philosophy and tactics. At Barca, there is a huge emphasis on thinking about philosophy and tactics all the way down to the youth levels. Things like positioning is a skill heavily emphasised to players even in the academy. That will tremendously help any potential managers. Even during their playing careers, they've been taught on how to help their teammates with their position in a match.
The question is always, always about whether a team can win a match by dominating the game. Counter-attacking football is relatively easy to score "easy points", because it is a game-plan primarily reliant on your opposition making mistakes when they are on the offense.
To win a match by dominating the match is a much harder task. It means all of your players must be good at all aspect of the game, defence, offense, possession and etc. It's something very few managers to accomplish.
Last season Koeman had Messi, Griezman, Dembélé, Pedri, etc. And still we played shit for most of the season. Koeman is not a good coach and should have been sacked in the summer. The Real mistake Laporta made was keeping him in charge. Legend or not, he is a shitty coach.
Well said, the improvement has been beyond incredible so far. It’s the most excited I’ve been to watch a Barca match since Messi left.
I agree that talent is about both strength and weaknesses, and Paul Pogba has both. I think it’s also important to recognize that a big part of what we call strength or weaknesses are about a palyer matching or mismatching the environment. In rhe extreme, you could say shooting and dribling are weakness with David de Gea, but as long as he’s played as a keeper, it’s not very relevant. If De Gea played seventy years ago, he would be deemed a keeper with no weaknesses. Fifty years ago, he would be a keeper with one weakness: dealing with crosses. Now, he has two serious weaknesses: Control of the box and participation in attack. Eric Cantona’s stubbornness in thinking outside the box was a grave weakness for much if his career, yet under Alex Ferguson it was suddenly his greatest strength.
Which means that if you can afford Pogba a role and environment were he has little need for constant proactive anticipation in defence and attack, you might see one of the worlds best midfielders on a steady basis. If not, you might have a problem on your hands.
Purple patch over?
Lets see how he does in his second season.
Yeah, the season is over for them. They should secure a Top2-3 spot; 2022-23 might be rough for them, especially with Mbappe playing for Madrid.
This is a huge slap to reality for Xavi. Another european debacle that reeks of 2017-2021 (the era they want to leave behind). Barcelona has been weak in defense since 2016-17.
This is a huge slap to reality for Xavi. Another european debacle that reeks of 2017-2021 (the era they want to leave behind). Barcelona has been weak in defense since 2016-17.
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