Yin and yang: The Fred-Bruno axis

[sammsky1]

24 hours on, and Im not thinking about Rashford, it's Fred performance from last night that stands out. And he was equally incredible vs PSG and Chelsea.

Fred is quickly becoming the yin to Bruno's yan. If we have these two playing close to their top level, I feel we can take on any midfield in world football.

Ole's next tactical puzzle to solve in midfield is to work out which 1 or 2 from Pogba, McTominay, Van Der Beek and Matic to compliment the Fred-Bruno axis with, and that will depend on tactics for specific opposition and form.

Ole has now established a number of tactical formations he can utilise according to opposition

4231............................Ole can go with Fred, McT/Pogba, Bruno
3412............................Ole can go with Matic/McT, Fred, Bruno
4-4Diamond-2.............Ole can go with Matic, Fred, Pogba/VdB, Bruno

For now, VdB can be guaranteed game time as an impact sub in every match, replacing no8 or no10

If I were Ole, Id look down the picture list for the next 2 months, and identify what formation I need for each game, and then try to rotate so Fred-Bruno can play in the most difficult games vs top team or high quality low block teams.

 

[sammsky1]

@ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg

 

[bosnian_red]

I think its a 4-2-2-2 with groupings that rotate between each 2, given the fixture congestion. Player wise and depth wise it offers the best balance, rotation, flexibility etc for what we have.

• 1 of De Gea/Henderson
• 1 of Shaw/Telles
• 2 of Maguire/Lindelof/Tuanzebe
• 1 of Wan Bissaka/Williams
• 2 of Fred, McTominay, Matic
• 2 of Bruno, Pogba, Van de Beek
• 2 of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani

I'd be pretty confident with any combo of players from that midfield and attack, there's not really a drop off in quality from one to the other. Just different players suiting each other differently (like what we expect Telles and Cavani will). Extra big bonus if Van de Beek can mix in with the defensive mids in a double pivot (should be able to, did it with Ajax for a while).

Obviously will be times we use a 433, 4231, 352, but 352 would be quite similar, just either taking out one of the CDM or CAM players and putting Telles and Shaw together. 433/4231 with Pogba in the 2 I'd expect to be use far less frequently now, only in game when we are chasing the game or are dominating so can afford more creativity.

 

[sammsky1]

I think its a 4-2-2-2 with groupings that rotate between each 2, given the fixture congestion. Player wise and depth wise it offers the best balance, rotation, flexibility etc for what we have.

• 1 of De Gea/Henderson
• 1 of Shaw/Telles
• 2 of Maguire/Lindelof/Tuanzebe
• 1 of Wan Bissaka/Williams
• 2 of Fred, McTominay, Matic
• 2 of Bruno, Pogba, Van de Beek
• 2 of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani

I'd be pretty confident with any combo of players from that midfield and attack, there's not really a drop off in quality from one to the other. Just different players suiting each other differently (like what we expect Telles and Cavani will). Extra big bonus if Van de Beek can mix in with the defensive mids in a double pivot (should be able to, did it with Ajax for a while).

Obviously will be times we use a 433, 4231, 352, but 352 would be quite similar, just either taking out one of the CDM or CAM players and putting Telles and Shaw together. 433/4231 with Pogba in the 2 I'd expect to be use far less frequently now, only in game when we are chasing the game or are dominating so can afford more creativity.

Excellent analysis and I love the way you simplified Ole’s choices. It’s also a clear subs bench policy too as you can see that quaility drop off is not severe across the team. And so long as we have these bench options, it’s so easy for Ole to change tactics during a game.

The only glaring drop in quality is at Right back, but if Williams is only considered against lower quality teams it should be OK.

It’s also an excellent way to determine what we shouldn’t do, which is attempt wing play too often as simply don’t have any. That’s a tactical option that will have to wait until Facundo or Amad make their breakthrough, or Sancho joins next season.

 

[Falcow]

Diamond is way to go. Fred at base of it, pogba left, Mctominay or DVB right and Bruno top of it would be my preferred starters.

Pogba could replace Bruno in that spot when needed as could DVB while Matic, could replace Fred who proved he can play on right side of it last night.

Lots of options and should be plenty of game time for all with players rested when needed and no drop off in quality which is great. So long as we never ever ever see Matic and Pogba in a two again I'll be happy.

 

[bosnian_red]

Excellent analysis and I love the way you simplified Ole’s choices. It’s also a clear subs bench policy too as you can see that quaility drop off is not severe across the team. And so long as we have these bench options, it’s so easy for Ole to change tactics during a game.

The only glaring drop in quality is at Right back, but if Williams is only considered against lower quality teams it should be OK.

It’s also an excellent way to determine what we shouldn’t do, which is attempt wing play too often as simply don’t have any. That’s a tactical option that will have to wait until Facundo or Amad make their breakthrough, or Sancho joins next season.

Even with this system, Ole can use Sancho as one of the 2 if we still go for it (personally doubt it). He likes playing in the half spaces and roaming anyway. Less clear what the plan is with Pellistri/Diallo (youth teams/bench to start likely), but flexibility is good. Williams will be fine, he's a good young fullback. Between him and Laird, we'll get enough development there.

Whats key for me is that we really shouldn't need to use the likes of Lingard, Mata, Dan James, Ighalo, Bailly/Jones/Rojo unless we go full rotation, and that's only for lower league opponents (or something like home vs Istanbul where some of them might come in). But that list is really just missing a 4th option for CDM, CAM and CB to come in for full rotation games, so what would probably happen is Jones or Bailly (or Mengi) come in to be the 4th CB, and then Van de Beek maybe goes deeper as one of the double pivot and we get Mata and Lingard as the CAM's behind 2 of the 4 strikers (can see us doing this next week vs Istanbul).

 

[sammsky1]

Even with this system, Ole can use Sancho as one of the 2 if we still go for it (personally doubt it). He likes playing in the half spaces and roaming anyway. Less clear what the plan is with Pellistri/Diallo (youth teams/bench to start likely), but flexibility is good. Williams will be fine, he's a good young fullback. Between him and Laird, we'll get enough development there.

Whats key for me is that we really shouldn't need to use the likes of Lingard, Mata, Dan James, Ighalo, Bailly/Jones/Rojo unless we go full rotation, and that's only for lower league opponents (or something like home vs Istanbul where some of them might come in). But that list is really just missing a 4th option for CDM, CAM and CB to come in for full rotation games, so what would probably happen is Jones or Bailly (or Mengi) come in to be the 4th CB, and then Van de Beek maybe goes deeper as one of the double pivot and we get Mata and Lingard as the CAM's behind 2 of the 4 strikers (can see us doing this next week vs Istanbul).

I cant see Ole having a serious RW strategy this season, as we just don't wont have the players to perform the job properly. But one or both of Pellistri/Diallo should be developed enough start of next season (doubt we'll go for Sancho now).

What is key for me is we have perfect players for all positions outside of 433, so should stick to what we have for now.
But for tough games Fred-Bruno is the critical engine room of the team.

 

[Remember the geese]

Diamond to stay I hope. Against Arsenal Matic/Mctominay, Fred, Pogba and Bruno with Rashford and Greenwood up top.

 

[Bebestation]

I think this is simply our best creative player with our best defensive midfielder.

 

[Foxbatt]

I cant see Ole having a serious RW strategy this season, as we just don't wont have the players to perform the job properly. But one or both of Pellistri/Diallo should be developed enough start of next season (doubt we'll go for Sancho now).

What is key for me is we have perfect players for all positions outside of 433, so should stick to what we have for now.
But for tough games Fred-Bruno is the critical engine room of the team.

The moment Ole forgets about his right wing or left wing, the better it will become. We need 4 midfield players. In my opinion Fred has to play in most games but he cannot be the DM as his energy is needed in midfield and playing as DM he cannot do it when we have Pogba, and Bruno in midfield. If we play DVB, Bruno and Pogba then Fred, the only position available for him is DM. I have not seen enough of DVB to say that he can play as a DM. I do not think so. Ole has a problem in getting all the players to start but it a good problem to have. Now he can change every player in midfield and the forwards depending on the circumstances. If we need to play against teams that defend deep he can play DVB and also Cavani. If they try to attack us he has the option of playing Martial or Rashford and Greenwood too.
So it is better not think of a starting eleven. The starting eleven should be tactical. I remember Cruijff saying that he would use Wim Kieft as a battering ram and then later would bring in Van Basten who can score goals. It is not the starting eleven that should matter but how he uses the whole squad to win football matches.

 

[Bobcat]

Vs good teams: 352 with Scott and Fred deep and Bruno pushed up

Vs midtable: 442 diamond with Fred at the base, Pogba and Scott CM and Bruno

Vs buses: 442 diamond with Fred, Pogba, DvB and Bruno

 

[Isotope]

I always wonder when a team have multiple formations. I get that it's to confuse the opponent, or to counter the opponent strength.

On the flip side, it will also confuse the team players. Because it takes time to be comfortable even with one formation.

That's why usually, every big team has one formation that they're best at. And only adjust the attacking/defending intent based on situation.

 

[sammsky1]

I think this is simply our best creative player with our best defensive midfielder.

I just watched yesterdays 2nd half again to better understand how we won so easily. Fred is incredible a both as a destroyer and assist machine. And he is always at the heart of our presses and attacks.

For the first, he presses a Liepzig player from behind and pokes the ball perfectly into Rashfods path for his 2nd goal.
The 2nd is amazing as he starts the move on edge of our box with a defensive interception which does to Bruno and then makes a 50m sprint to receive the ball off Bruno again and delivers a one touch pass into Martial.

I feel like Fred-Bruno can create a magical understanding and for me, it's a totally unexpected outcome!

 

[sammsky1]

The moment Ole forgets about his right wing or left wing, the better it will become. We need 4 midfield players. In my opinion Fred has to play in most games but he cannot be the DM as his energy is needed in midfield and playing as DM he cannot do it when we have Pogba, and Bruno in midfield. If we play DVB, Bruno and Pogba then Fred, the only position available for him is DM. I have not seen enough of DVB to say that he can play as a DM. I do not think so. Ole has a problem in getting all the players to start but it a good problem to have. Now he can change every player in midfield and the forwards depending on the circumstances. If we need to play against teams that defend deep he can play DVB and also Cavani. If they try to attack us he has the option of playing Martial or Rashford and Greenwood too.
So it is better not think of a starting eleven. The starting eleven should be tactical. I remember Cruijff saying that he would use Wim Kieft as a battering ram and then later would bring in Van Basten who can score goals. It is not the starting eleven that should matter but how he uses the whole squad to win football matches.

It’s potentially very exciting because as the season progresses so all the midfielders can get used to playing within an interchangeable diamond.

Ole could end up creating his own version to CruyffBall in that the team seamlessly interchanges formations during the game, depending on specific circumstances and game phases.

And as you say those circumstances also determine if we just have speedsters up front or use Cavani as a point man.

reminds me abit on when Fergie first discovered 4231 and deployed an interchangeable front four of Giggs, Tevez, Ronaldo and Rooney. It was amazing to watch all 4 swap places at will and they created absolute havoc.

 

[sammsky1]

I always wonder when a team have multiple formations. I get that it's to confuse the opponent, or to counter the opponent strength.

On the flip side, it will also confuse the team players. Because it takes time to be comfortable even with one formation.

That's why usually, every big team has one formation that they're best at. And only adjust the attacking/defending intent based on situation.

But that’s why I think it’s important to remember we are still a newly forming squad, and hence why a title challenge this year might be too soon.

I’d be very happy if Ole could use this season to get the squad drilled in all 3 formations. Then add 2 more high quality transfers next summer and blitz our way to the league next season.

There will be blips and infuriating results along the way better, so the manager his squad have to be given enough time to naturally develop.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Diamond would be perfect Vs arse cos arteta is so naive he will let us spring counters

Beyond that, Fred and mctom are our best cm based on performance ... And that is probably what should get you into the starting 11

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

I think its a 4-2-2-2 with groupings that rotate between each 2, given the fixture congestion. Player wise and depth wise it offers the best balance, rotation, flexibility etc for what we have.

• 1 of De Gea/Henderson
• 1 of Shaw/Telles
• 2 of Maguire/Lindelof/Tuanzebe
• 1 of Wan Bissaka/Williams
• 2 of Fred, McTominay, Matic
• 2 of Bruno, Pogba, Van de Beek
• 2 of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani

I'd be pretty confident with any combo of players from that midfield and attack, there's not really a drop off in quality from one to the other. Just different players suiting each other differently (like what we expect Telles and Cavani will). Extra big bonus if Van de Beek can mix in with the defensive mids in a double pivot (should be able to, did it with Ajax for a while).

Obviously will be times we use a 433, 4231, 352, but 352 would be quite similar, just either taking out one of the CDM or CAM players and putting Telles and Shaw together. 433/4231 with Pogba in the 2 I'd expect to be use far less frequently now, only in game when we are chasing the game or are dominating so can afford more creativity.

Great post. Also hope to see Van de Beek in the bullet point above.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

I think its a 4-2-2-2 with groupings that rotate between each 2, given the fixture congestion. Player wise and depth wise it offers the best balance, rotation, flexibility etc for what we have.

• 1 of De Gea/Henderson
• 1 of Shaw/Telles
• 2 of Maguire/Lindelof/Tuanzebe
• 1 of Wan Bissaka/Williams
• 2 of Fred, McTominay, Matic
• 2 of Bruno, Pogba, Van de Beek
• 2 of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani

I'd be pretty confident with any combo of players from that midfield and attack, there's not really a drop off in quality from one to the other. Just different players suiting each other differently (like what we expect Telles and Cavani will). Extra big bonus if Van de Beek can mix in with the defensive mids in a double pivot (should be able to, did it with Ajax for a while).

Obviously will be times we use a 433, 4231, 352, but 352 would be quite similar, just either taking out one of the CDM or CAM players and putting Telles and Shaw together. 433/4231 with Pogba in the 2 I'd expect to be use far less frequently now, only in game when we are chasing the game or are dominating so can afford more creativity.

Agree with your ideas. Appreciate your in depth serious thinking.

Your players selections I think need additional players namely Mata and TFM. I feel much more confident with TFM than Williams at RB. Also as you've mentioned fixture congestion, for sure we're going to have lots of injuries (and it's happening already) so need a bit more players in depth. CBs are still worrying so maybe TFM could also cover that position. I trust him more than Bailly or Jones.

That said, if Bruno doesn't play then honestly I'm just not confident at all.

 

[Champagne Football]

Agree with your ideas. Appreciate your in depth serious thinking.

Your players selections I think need additional players namely Mata and TFM. I feel much more confident with TFM than Williams at RB. Also as you've mentioned fixture congestion, for sure we're going to have lots of injuries (and it's happening already) so need a bit more players in depth. CBs are still worrying so maybe TFM could also cover that position. I trust him more than Bailly or Jones.

That said, if Bruno doesn't play then honestly I'm just not confident at all.

We've tried a 4222 or something close and it was disastrous because Pogba doesn't work hard enough, so does not deserve to be in the team in any formation currently. VDB hasn't shown enough yet to warrant starting over others in our first XI.

TFM has played 16 times in 4 years and you trust him as our back up RB? Jurado is one of the highest rated young right backs in Europe, then there's Ethan Laird too, so I don't imagine TFM has much of a career left here.