Giggs didn't have a great game, but I don't think this was our problem. I like Jones in midfield, I thought he played pretty well.
Giggs & Jones in midfield
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
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What annoys me about playing Jones in midfield is that we should be bedding him in at CB. But at the moment we can't.
Without Carrick, we have no midfield.
Can't wait for The Paddy Crerand show on Monday. If there's any denial it'll be cringeworthy.
If that isn't depressing, then what is?
I'm not sure goalscoring is our biggest problem in midfield.
Passing and creating from the middle is one issue. As I said, Giggs was still one of our better players but that still doesnt change that he was about 1/4 with his throughball attempts tonight. He got some right, he got loads wrong. But thats all we had from the middle
Something I've been wondering about is our organisation in midfield. Just look at some of the smaller teams that have done well against us recently, including Basel tonight. Even though we have Jones, Carrick, Fletcher - players who are individually good defensively, we're never as effective as some of those smaller teams at retrieving the ball and making it hard for the opponents to get out of our pressure. Its down to organisation and I dont think we're making near the best use of these players when they are picked in midfield.
So in the end our central midfield isnt particularly good at creating and making openings. It doesnt get us many goals. It doesnt retrieve the ball as well as plenty of other smaller teams. So what does our midfield really give us? Just legs and half decent passing onto the wings imo.
Its very, very ordinary and im not sure we're even using what we do have optimally to make those players look their best either.
With or without him we still don't have one.
Put some pressure on Carrick and take the time off him and he's out of the game...
We simply have no midfield.
Young has been a weak point for almost 3 months now - he has been awful ever since he got injured!
I'm sick of this stupid argument. Just because a team gets to a CL final, doesn't mean they're great. We beat Marseille, Chelsea and a diabolically shit Shalke and then got toweled up in the final. Of course in that final, several supposed quality players got their arseholes torn out and exposed for how limited they really are. But every things fine!!!
The writing was on the wall against Barcelona and we tried to cover the cracks with paper. Our initial team this season looked good, because it pretty much removed everything that was wrong with us. The dead wood was gone, but when injuries set in, the dead wood comes back and then getting toweled up by city didn't help at all.
I think Giggs is great in a 3 man midfield, 2 people is too much work rate for him.
No better players available, apparently.
Anderson needs to go. I know he didn't play tonight so I obviously don't blame him for tonight but him being there, and the hope Fergie has in him is limiting our growth as a team because he simply isn't improving at all. Sell him, move on.
I disagree with this, he was playing well before his injury and now he just hasn't got back to that form yet, to say he's not simply United quality is just ridicoulous.
I dont want mock Fergie but i do wonder who are those 2 or 3 midfielders that would improve our team.
Same here, basically a carbon copy of Valencia.
this.
Thats not really fair is it. But perhaps part of the reason Anderson hasnt kicked on is that he isnt exactly competing with world beaters.
Fabregas
Iniesta
Xavi
They werent available to us this summer, so we have to make do with the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th best midfielders in the world - Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson and Cleverley
you must be joking
We looked like 11 individuals today. That wasn't the midfield's fault.
I agree with your points about the forwards, but i disagree with you that the midfield has nothing to do with it. The midfield is key to how a team plays, if you have a midfield capable of keeping possession that increases your team's passing confidence, if its a midfield that can win the ball back you may play slightly more risky passes throughout the team, and your forwards can make all the runs knowing that a midfielder's pass could find them.
its not that the midfield who reached last week's champions league are bad players, they are just all, a year older, have had bad injury records, and somehow don't seem to play well as a unit and don't complement each other. The lack of confidence in the midfield has affected all areas of the team. The other big point is, that other teams have strengthened in midfield. We don't have the dominant midfield of giggs, scholes, keane, beckham - now that was a midfield that could dominate a lot of games. Our midfield is just being left behind. Injuries don't help though, Anderson and Cleverley fit all season may well have made a difference.
We have the worst midfield of any of the top European clubs.
Hindsight it may be, but after seeing that performance i can't help but think that had we played fletcher and gibson in midfield and welbeck in attack instead of giggs/jones/park who seemed lost, it may have been different.
I can't understand how we had four wingers and a young defender comprising our midfield five....shame about the injuries...
I can't understand how we had four wingers and a young defender comprising our midfield five....shame about the injuries...
It may not mean they're great but it also means they're not bad either. The teams we beat however poor you think they were, were definitely better than all the teams we played in this group stage. Plenty of teams have been beaten thoroughly by barca, we weren't the first and we won't be the last, and that's just one game. I'm sure if we played city again it won't be 6-1, similarily i'm sure if we play arsenal it won't be 8-2.
Our start of season form showed flashes of brilliance but you can't point to one game bar the arsenal game where we were brilliant throughout. West Brom we were average and lucky to win. Against a weak spurs team we were even for an hour and only after we scored and the game became open did we play well. After that the likes of clev went down and the performances apparently did as well.
We've had numerous problems that have added up all season. Injuries across the team and in particular in the defence and midfield has hurt us. Loosing a lot of experienced players has hurt us as well. Smalling/Jones/Evans/Fabio although they have great potential, are all raw and have certainly had their lack of experience shown in europe, which was one of the things that cost us in the early games.
The fluctuating form of our attackers has hurt us as well. Can you honestly say that today or in most games this season, we've struggled to get the ball to the attackers? Or not got the likes of Nani, Young and Valencia one on one with their man? Because we have, but between them all and particularly the latter two, their distribution has been very poor. They've created very little chances.
On top of that Rooneys form has dropped dramatically since the start of the season. He's had chances but he's fluffed them. He's not even creating anything of note either. On top of that Hernandez has been poor, Welbeck has been in and out but is raw anyway and Berba/Owen have barely featured.
That's the problem. 3 out of our 4 first choice attackers (Rooney, Young Hernandez) have all been below par for most the season. Their replacements, Valencia and Park have been poor. It's not been the midfield. Yes we could use a modric like player, but at the end of the day the main thing modric can do is give our attacking players the ball in good positions. They have to then go out and use it well which they're not.
Look at the city team. That team is not much different to the one last season. They've added Aguero and taken out Tevez, pretty much like for like, and they've added nasri. Not major changes. However they've been able to play a consistent team and they've had their four main attackers, (Silva, Aguero, Nasri, Dzeko) in form. On top of that they've had their back up attackers in form as well, the likes of Balotelli/ Johnson. It's virtually the same city squad that last season was well off the pace, and that was in a season where we had plenty of problems. This season as I've said they've been able to play a consistent team and an inform team, they've got confidence. We have none of these things at the moment nor for the bulk of the season. Their team hasn't suddenly become better than ours, or ours poor, it's just about form right now and injuries.
Toure and Barry have hardly been playing superbly. Between them they don't create a whole lot, probably no more then any of our midfielder have been. However the players in front of them have been playing well, ours haven't. As I said we've paid the price of players under performing, a loss of experience and a subsequent reliance on inexperience, injuries and some complacency in squad selection. To blame it on the midfielder is the easy option, they're the easy target. But the problems have been elsewhere. Lacking a top midfielder might be stopping us from being the best, but poor form of players around them is causing the team to struggle right now.
No one in the world barring Cesc, Xavi and Iniesta could improve our midfield.
fixed
(1) no value in the market.
(2)my team is good enough and i cant find any players to improve this team.
(3) we have closed the gap on barcelona.
(4)rooney should take 50% pay cut.
(5) park&giggs should be awarded contract extension.
(2)my team is good enough and i cant find any players to improve this team.
(3) we have closed the gap on barcelona.
(4)rooney should take 50% pay cut.
(5) park&giggs should be awarded contract extension.
Seriously, our midfield is a bit rubbish. While other parts were even worse today, there is just a huge lack of quality in the centre of the pitch. Relying so much on wide players is a very rigid and inflexible way to play and it leads to rigid and disjoint performance.
Personally, I think we should have adressed the midfields with a major signing pot two a season or more back.
What you're failing to understand Ash, is that the Midfield is crucial for a side to operate. Is has to be balanced in both attack and defense to be effective. We're one of the best sides at retaining possession, but we struggle to create chances from CM and our defending from CM is non existant if Carrick doesn't play.
It doesn't matter if you have Messi in the side, if your CM isn't good enough, the confidence of the team will be hit when the opposition puts pressure on your defense. Pressure breeds mistakes and thats when you fail.
Our strikers have dipped in form and we've been very unlucky with our injuries. But our CM has been a problem for many years now, its been an obvious weakness for many seasons.
In hindsight, the signing of Young when its clear as day our CM requires attention is very bewildering.
It doesn't matter if you have Messi in the side, if your CM isn't good enough, the confidence of the team will be hit when the opposition puts pressure on your defense. Pressure breeds mistakes and thats when you fail.
Our strikers have dipped in form and we've been very unlucky with our injuries. But our CM has been a problem for many years now, its been an obvious weakness for many seasons.
In hindsight, the signing of Young when its clear as day our CM requires attention is very bewildering.
Well considering todays midfield, it's not really fair to use it as a representation of the strength of the midfield as a whole. We started neither of our two main midfielder in Carrick who was suspended and Fletcher who probably wasn't fully fit. Both of these two are excellent at keeping possession. We've seen how much carrick has had an impact in recent weeks. Fletcher hasn't been at his best but he's obviously still recovering from his illness. This problem is being magnified by the fact that two of our other main midfielders, ando and clev (both of whom would have been excellent in a three for todays game) are injured and the attackers are out of form meaning we can't even rely on them to see us through.
The other issue with today is that we went for a very attacking mindset. Jones who was our deepest player in the middle got involved loads in the attack. So again it's not really the fairest to judge the midfield on. We committed som many men forward that by nature it was going to be open. We've had few opportunities over the season where we've actually been able to play two fully fit central midfielders.
But anway, I agree that the midfield is key to how you play but at the end of the day if the players ahead of them don't make use of the passes they get then there's not much you can do. Giggs in the first half played some great passes but they came to nothing. We worked plenty of good opportunities and good the ball to the edge of the box. The ball in, or the interplay around the box though was poor. Again thats the fault of the attackers not the midfield.
These last few weeks have really highlighted this for me. Against benfica we were great in the middle but we just didn't use the ball to our best in the final third. Against newcastle again we dominated the possession and got the ball into good areas, the ball in though was poor as was the composure of the strikers and then once toon went defensive we were just unfortunate. Against Villa again we dominated the middle, distributed well but once more the use of the ball in the final third was poor. We created little chances of note and that was because the likes of Rooney, Valencia and Young were below par. Carrick and Jones were great in the middle.
As for comparing the midfield to the 99 team. Well the bunch of players we have now, most of whom have been big players in this recent run of success have had far more success in europe then that midfield over the same time period. Of course that midfield was better but this midfield is clearly not as bad as being made out. As I said we've not really been able to play a fit pair consistently in there anyway this season, but it's still a decent midfield if not the best it could be. The bigger problems though in my opinion is the poor form of the attackers. Neither of our competitors in the league have really strengthened their midfields from last season, and neither of them could have been said to be better than ours last season and that was with us having some bad injuries there. The midfield isn't the issue atm, obv injuries there aren't helping but it's the players ahead who are causing problems as they're not doing enough.
A voice of reason.
We didn't lose the game because of our central midfielders today. Surely that's obvious?
Not true. Mikel and McEachran are at least central midfielders. None of the 3 that started our game are.
More like Chelsea starting with Alex in CM with Bosingwa and Drogba in Central midfield!
Eh? Do you have any idea how many games Giggs has played in central midfield over the last few years? Hint: it's more than McEachran's played in his entire career. In any position.
As for Jones, he's played in central midfield plenty of times before. He's a versatile player. One of the reasons we signed him.
See I don't understand how you can say that the midfield has been a problem for many years. Last season we had some injuries there but still managed to win the title and get to the cl final. The season before that we were strong and only some bad luck and rooneys injury cost us the title, which we were one point off. And then the previous three seasons we won the title every year and reached two cl finals, winning one. We may not have a big name in the middle but the players we have there are far better than people credit them for. It's not as strong as it could be, fair enough, but it's by no means bad.
As for having no defensive cover without Carrick, well we know Fletcher can do that. He and Carrick together is a very solid pair, as solid a pair as you'll find in the league. Unfortunately Fletchers recovery seems to be taking longer than expected and you can see his fitness isn't there yet. When those two have played together though defensively we're very solid and even if they're not a great force creatively they're not bad either. I'm not sure how you can argue that the main midfield options we have don't provide enough security considering last season we reached the final conceding only one goal. And in previous seasons we've been pretty tight to. Our biggest problem there is that we've not had our main midfielders fit enough to play them when we need to. Plus we have the likes of Clev, Ando, Giggs in the squad to provide a spark from the middle if we need it.
City play Toure and Barry as their midfielders. Both good players, both very solid, neither are particularly creative though. Their back up is De Jong, Milner and Hagreaves. Again solid players, milner is fairly creative without being class the others aren't. They get their creativity from Silva, Nasri, Aguero, Dzeko. Those four work together, all interchanging. Then they have the likes of Balotelli and Johnson able to come in and create. All of them have been on form. In comparison we have typically, Rooney, Nani, Young and Hernandez. Only Nani has been on form over the season. The others have had a few games on form and certainly for about three months now they've been below par. On top of that the players we have to bring in, Valencia, Park, Berba, have been poor. Welbeck has shown potential but he's still raw. That's one player out of the whole attacking options we have who we can genuinely say has performed over a season. That's just not good enough.
At the back we've had plenty of injuries, we've lost plenty of experience and we've brought in plenty of inexperience. They've made mistakes, but that's expected. Most of them aren't down to the midfield being too open though or us not dominating the ball. They've just been individual mistakes, mostly due to inexperience and they've been more of a problem then expected because the attack hasn't helped.
I agree 100% that the midfield is important to any side but at the end of the day when you have as many players not performing as we do then you have bigger problems. The midfield hasn't been at it's strongest so far but that's been mainly down to injuries there, we've hardly been able to play any consistent partnerships with fit players. You can't say that about the attack. They've not suffered from a lack of service or from having to go looking for the ball. They've simply not been doing enough and it's costing the team. It's not down to a lack of quality in the midfield. Injuries have hut us there. But this bunch of midfielder has served us very well in recent years, none of them bar giggs are particularly old and none of them have become suddenly bad. Like I've said the lack of a big name makes them an easy scape goat but the far bigger issue so far has been poor form from the attackers in the squad.
I don't really see what people saw in Jones tonight, not that I thought he was bad, but he was pretty non-existant.
I thought he was good in the first half and made some good tackles etc, second half he wasn't involved as much but the whole team came out slowly in the second half, where we were a lot less dominant.
We didn't lose the game tonight in midfield. I think Vidic in the games he missed when he got sent off and when he went off tonight was key. He's our rock. As a team, tonight aside from the sloppiness at times...we were very unfortunate. We lost it at home, and for me we missed Vidic big time. Tonight though, I thought the ref was a bit of a homer and we just didn't have the luck you need but it happened 6 years ago and we got better so hopefully it's a big lesson for the players. We can talk about midfield but the fact is we created chances but we just didn't defend well enough. When you let in the goals we did, you can have any midfielder you want....both goals were pathetic.
Jones is as useful in midfield as O'Shea was (Actually O'Shea was rather competent, Jones isn't). I'd rather we don't play him there. His inexperience can be seen from space. Positioning is often wrong. Lots of ball watching and basically - he's not a midfielder.