It never was.
The 'Awful Squad' Brigade
- Thread starter Sarni
- Start date
I would be happy if we were playing good football, but we aren't even doing that. What style of football does he want us to play, does he even know himself? If it is what we are seeing now I dread to think what players he will buy to shoehorn into it.
i was think bout this yesterday - 200 mil might be neccessary to get what we need.
RB, 2 LBs (evra gone, Buttner is Buttner), 2 CBs, 2CMs, one winger, 1 strikers. That's 9 players in the ideal scenario.
You say squad but then just post a team.
Now I dont think we have an awful best 11 but we do have a squad which lacks the depth we need.
So if you are trying to make your point by talking about the SQUAD at the very least show the whole squad.
Van Persie says hi
No CL football says hi.
I don't think we should be using the squad issues as an excuse for being this bad, and I don't agree with the sentiment that this squad is awful. With a good manager it'd be enough to finish top 4 IMO and could go on a cup run here and there.
If Pardew got Newcastle relegated people wouldn't think it's fine because they don't have a team as good as Liverpool or Everton. Likewise, getting United to finish 6th isn't fine because we don't have City's squad.
Complain about the squad all you like.
But is it poor enough to lose to Sunderland over 2 legs?
Is it poor enough to not be able to Beat Swansea at home in the FA cup?
Is it poor enough to be out of contention for a place in the top four by Mid February?
Is it poor enough to be knocked out of the Cl by a team who wouldn't be able to provide a regular starter for any of the 4 PL teams in the CL?
Is 3 points from 18 acceptable against WBA,Southampton,Everton,Newcastle,Spurs,Fulham at home?
If the squad is as bad as those results suggest Moyes needs to spend around 175-200million next summer.
But is it poor enough to lose to Sunderland over 2 legs?
Is it poor enough to not be able to Beat Swansea at home in the FA cup?
Is it poor enough to be out of contention for a place in the top four by Mid February?
Is it poor enough to be knocked out of the Cl by a team who wouldn't be able to provide a regular starter for any of the 4 PL teams in the CL?
Is 3 points from 18 acceptable against WBA,Southampton,Everton,Newcastle,Spurs,Fulham at home?
If the squad is as bad as those results suggest Moyes needs to spend around 175-200million next summer.
Again, I'm not defending Moyes. He has been awful, no question. Sacking him won't be a magic bullet though, which is something people seem to wilfully ignore when they start saying the squad is good enough. Good enough for what? Finishing fourth (badly)? Oh joy.
The solution to our problems really isn't complicated. Two steps. 1) Hire a quality manager. 2) Rebuild the squad.
That's it, job done. Yet people want to complicate things by insisting it's one step or the other. Why?
The solution to our problems really isn't complicated. Two steps. 1) Hire a quality manager. 2) Rebuild the squad.
That's it, job done. Yet people want to complicate things by insisting it's one step or the other. Why?
I think the following players have shown beyond any real doubt that they shouldn't be Manchester United players this season:
Vidic
Rio
Cleverley
Carrick
Young
Valencia
Buttner
We're not going to get another Sir Alex, so players like Carrick and Vidic who hid previously behind his character and strength and now reveal themselves to have absolutely zero character of their own, aren't going to be good enough. Others I don't dislike but just aren't good enough no matter how hard they try (Young, Cleverley)
In addition, there's players like Evra, where the spirit is willing but the legs can no longer carry it, or Giggs, who's about 103. Then players who still have question marks over them, like Fellaini. Other players who've either been bitching about being unhappy or haven't contributed enough over a sustained period of time, such as Nani, Anderson and Hernandez.
When you weed out all of the people not really contributing for one reason or another, all you have left is:
De Gea
Rafael
Jones
Evans
Smalling?
Fletcher?
Fellaini?
Kagawa?
Januzaj
Rooney
RVP
Welbeck
Mata
Hernandez?
That as a list of players, even with the question marks removed, also isn't good enough to compete for trophies. It's a top class set of attacking players who mostly get sat on the bench for no real reason, complemented by half a team of questionable talent who also often get sat on the bench in favour of people who consistently play like utter tosh.
Even a manager who did have a clue what he was doing would struggle, while Moyes seems oblivious to which players he can actually rely on.
Vidic
Rio
Cleverley
Carrick
Young
Valencia
Buttner
We're not going to get another Sir Alex, so players like Carrick and Vidic who hid previously behind his character and strength and now reveal themselves to have absolutely zero character of their own, aren't going to be good enough. Others I don't dislike but just aren't good enough no matter how hard they try (Young, Cleverley)
In addition, there's players like Evra, where the spirit is willing but the legs can no longer carry it, or Giggs, who's about 103. Then players who still have question marks over them, like Fellaini. Other players who've either been bitching about being unhappy or haven't contributed enough over a sustained period of time, such as Nani, Anderson and Hernandez.
When you weed out all of the people not really contributing for one reason or another, all you have left is:
De Gea
Rafael
Jones
Evans
Smalling?
Fletcher?
Fellaini?
Kagawa?
Januzaj
Rooney
RVP
Welbeck
Mata
Hernandez?
That as a list of players, even with the question marks removed, also isn't good enough to compete for trophies. It's a top class set of attacking players who mostly get sat on the bench for no real reason, complemented by half a team of questionable talent who also often get sat on the bench in favour of people who consistently play like utter tosh.
Even a manager who did have a clue what he was doing would struggle, while Moyes seems oblivious to which players he can actually rely on.
Everyone goes on about the CL, players nowadays are motivated by money. Don't tell me players wouldn't have joined Chelsea if they hadn't managed to win the CL. Of course they would because of the wages. If SAF was our manager then I don't think CL would be a factor. However David Moyes and no CL might be a different matter. They want the money and a manager who they know will get it right at some time.
Well then, you have players like Evans, Cleverley, Welbeck, Hernandez, Valencia, Young and Nani on the fringes there. While none of them are world class obviously, at their best they can still play half decently.
The issues with the squad become exposed because we often use squad players when we don't really need to. We could have played Kagawa and Januzaj yesterday yet we went with two inferior players. We could have probably played Fellaini yet opted for Cleverley. If you suddenly decide to use three players who should be back-ups under normal circumstances in an important game like that then the chances are you're going to do poorly. Only Bayern could get away with that because they usually have the likes of Robben, Gotze and Kroos on the fringes.
It's fecking hilarious that the people bemoaning the 'Awful Squad Brigade' are the same ones who moan at Moyes for picking certain players from the squad.
"It's all Moyes' fault. Our squad is great. OH FFS Moyes, you've picked him and him and him...and, oh NO, not HIM! But our squad is great yeah"
The truth is obviously something inbetween yet people are so keen take sides. Moyes is not getting anywhere near enough out of the squad we have, but the squad we have is also not good enough.
Regardless of who is more to blame it's certainly the Moyes-bashers who tend to be the most vocal, childish, repetitive, unobjective, hypocritical, irrational, narrow-minded, petty, pedantic, hysterical, spoilt, brattish, snide etc etc etc...
"It's all Moyes' fault. Our squad is great. OH FFS Moyes, you've picked him and him and him...and, oh NO, not HIM! But our squad is great yeah"
The truth is obviously something inbetween yet people are so keen take sides. Moyes is not getting anywhere near enough out of the squad we have, but the squad we have is also not good enough.
Regardless of who is more to blame it's certainly the Moyes-bashers who tend to be the most vocal, childish, repetitive, unobjective, hypocritical, irrational, narrow-minded, petty, pedantic, hysterical, spoilt, brattish, snide etc etc etc...
Why do we need a striker when we already have four of them (and two other number 10 players)?
Why we need 2CB when we have three young CB. Unless we are planning to ship one of Evans/Jones/Smalling it doesn't make sense to sign 2 CB.
I think that we need less players then you mentioned.
RB - promote Valera
CB - someone who ideally would be better than all CB we have. Hummels will be my muppet choice but it has 0 chance to happen.
LB - Coentrao
Back up LB - someone young and cheap
2CM - ideally both of them to be very good
There are 5 players here which won't cost more than 100m (probably even less considering that we will sell some players this season). If we sell RVP then likely we will need to add some quality in attacking department, probably a top winger/inside forward and push Rooney forward.
You dont need to be world beaters to compete for the PL title. Look at Arsenals/Liverpools squad. Ok both will probably fall short but their squads are full of average players.
Even Man city have plenty of average players. Milner,Lescott,Rodwell,Richards,Kolarov,Demichelis,Garica etc
Thing is even with good team selections we are nowhere near our best most of the time. Team selections are only a part of the problem. Lack of consistent runs for our first XI, baffling approach to the game are another obvious issues that prevent us from getting the best out of this lot.
Our squad isn't awful. Far from it. However they're not Moyes players. If they want to play like that, they can move to another club. It's the players who went out there and did nothing. All Moyes can do is pick 11 men to play but some of them have lost their bottle. Fair enough. Moyes just has to pull them aside and ship them out. When Sir Alex came to United he wanted to remove the drinking culture. Moyes needs to remove the pussy culture. Too many players yesterday needed 5 minutes on the ball to play it. Have they forgotten the concept of tempo?
It's a mental problem for many of them and if they can't man up, Moyes needs to be VERY strong in the summer. If you don't want to compete stay home. Their first goal was fortunate but it comes about because many of our players are cowards who don't believe in themselves nor their team mates. It's all right Carrick saying what he said, but we all know what he'll say if we don't overturn it. We've heard it all season. They should be apologising to the supporters and look to compensate those unfortunate enough to witness that shower of shite in the stadium.
It's a mental problem for many of them and if they can't man up, Moyes needs to be VERY strong in the summer. If you don't want to compete stay home. Their first goal was fortunate but it comes about because many of our players are cowards who don't believe in themselves nor their team mates. It's all right Carrick saying what he said, but we all know what he'll say if we don't overturn it. We've heard it all season. They should be apologising to the supporters and look to compensate those unfortunate enough to witness that shower of shite in the stadium.
The fact that we need a rebuilding is the exact reason why he should go. We are approaching a crucial era in club's history and we hand over the job to the wrong person we won't recover from that for ages.
So you think manager's job ends with picking the first XI? We're paying him for just that?
One of the problems we have is that we should have brought in a manager who is actually used to dealing with a large squad. Moyes has been used to having a smaller squad that picked itself. He has come here and thinks he has to rotate all the time instead of settling on his best performing team and rotating when there are injuries and suspensions, he is in rotation overdrive.
You're just taking swipes at a straw man now. Is anyone on the whole of redcafe trying to claim that the quality of the squad is the main reason we are where we are?
5.7m annual salary to pick eleven players and he usually bottles that too. And people think that Moyes should resing.
There are various kinds of manager. Rednapp didn't do too bad and was more about motivation then tactics. I know what you're saying and please don't patronize me but it's the players who take the field. We were against a team we should beat quite comfortably. Would we lose to a pub team just cause Moyes was in charge? I wouldn't expect us too and I think most people know if we show a desire to win a game of football we win. The players are experienced enough to know better.
If you are not happy with how hard you work in training, but are happy enough to pick up the £££ - then chances are you're at the wrong club. These players need to grow up.
Our squad clearly isn't shit.
Over the last few seasons, it would rile me when Tottenham/Liverpool/Arsenal fans would say that 'on paper', their team/squad was better than ours, and that the only reason we were successful is because of Fergie/corruption/etc.
The people who did argue that are going to be feeling pretty vindicated at the moment, aren't they?
But there's no way 'shit' squads can win league titles by huge margins, as we did last season, even with a manager as brilliant as Fergie. He wasn't a miracle worker, and when he didn't have the tools to work with, we wouldn't win league titles (circa 2004-2006, for example).
An attacking array of RvP, Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj, Mata, Hernandez and Welbeck is not shit - most would grace any top European club. And while our key defenders may not be what they once were, i'd say Jones, Evans, Vidic, Ferdinand, Rafael, Smalling and Evra is still a good collection of players, a good mixture of youth and experience. De Gea is, of course, now widely recognised as being first rate.
We are admittedly light in midfield, and our wingers are struggling for form and fitness, but again, a collection of Carrick, Fellaini, Cleverley, Fletcher, Young, Valencia, Nani, Giggs and Zaha isn't terrible. It's not top class, but it's not terrible either.
We have a strong first XI, and decent-at-worst cover in most positions.
And even those of us who like and have defended Moyes would have to concede that to date, he's not got anything like the best out of them. We do have a top-four capable squad, even if it has some flaws, but top-four is looking a pipe dream at the moment.
I won't go over the same old arguments as to why we've frequently performed so poorly under Moyes, but suffice to say, it's not at root a lack of actual talent among the playing staff.
Over the last few seasons, it would rile me when Tottenham/Liverpool/Arsenal fans would say that 'on paper', their team/squad was better than ours, and that the only reason we were successful is because of Fergie/corruption/etc.
The people who did argue that are going to be feeling pretty vindicated at the moment, aren't they?
But there's no way 'shit' squads can win league titles by huge margins, as we did last season, even with a manager as brilliant as Fergie. He wasn't a miracle worker, and when he didn't have the tools to work with, we wouldn't win league titles (circa 2004-2006, for example).
An attacking array of RvP, Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj, Mata, Hernandez and Welbeck is not shit - most would grace any top European club. And while our key defenders may not be what they once were, i'd say Jones, Evans, Vidic, Ferdinand, Rafael, Smalling and Evra is still a good collection of players, a good mixture of youth and experience. De Gea is, of course, now widely recognised as being first rate.
We are admittedly light in midfield, and our wingers are struggling for form and fitness, but again, a collection of Carrick, Fellaini, Cleverley, Fletcher, Young, Valencia, Nani, Giggs and Zaha isn't terrible. It's not top class, but it's not terrible either.
We have a strong first XI, and decent-at-worst cover in most positions.
And even those of us who like and have defended Moyes would have to concede that to date, he's not got anything like the best out of them. We do have a top-four capable squad, even if it has some flaws, but top-four is looking a pipe dream at the moment.
I won't go over the same old arguments as to why we've frequently performed so poorly under Moyes, but suffice to say, it's not at root a lack of actual talent among the playing staff.
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It's not awful but I've said this in other threads too, it's nowhere near as good as some people think it is.
Presumably most of you have got mates that support other teams. Ask their opinion on the likes of Smalling, Evans, Cleverly, Welbeck, Carrick etc..
Now I'm not saying that opinion will be gospel but it does tend to lend some perspective to the often red tinted opinion on here.
That said going forward we should be far more threatening with the likes of RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa than we are. It's clear we have a manager who doesn't know how to get the best out of that bunch tactically and this has been the story of the season. Round pegs in square holes. If he wants to insist on playing with out and out wingers then buy some decent ones. Why spend £30m on Mata?
Presumably most of you have got mates that support other teams. Ask their opinion on the likes of Smalling, Evans, Cleverly, Welbeck, Carrick etc..
Now I'm not saying that opinion will be gospel but it does tend to lend some perspective to the often red tinted opinion on here.
That said going forward we should be far more threatening with the likes of RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa than we are. It's clear we have a manager who doesn't know how to get the best out of that bunch tactically and this has been the story of the season. Round pegs in square holes. If he wants to insist on playing with out and out wingers then buy some decent ones. Why spend £30m on Mata?
They mentioned on MUTV last night, that he needed to get 4 or 5 of his own players in the summer as they would have had no connection to SAF whatsoever. The summer debacle is coming back to bite us on the bum now. The players are reacting like a bunch of lads who have been dumped by their girlfriends and still can't believe it.
For me, the fact is we've wasted the year. We wasted last summer's transfer window chasing fantasy targets and I believe that wasn't all about Woodward. I also think there were players who SAF/Gill had lined up to sign that for whatever reason, Moyes chose not to sign. Because he didn't like our scouting reports? Because he thought it could do better? It doesn't really matter. We got to the closing days of the transfer window without strengthening and then still missed the opportunities that were available.
So instead of a gradual changing of the guard and a couple of special players to brighten up the squad, we're now talking about at least 6 to 10 players leaving/retiring and having to bring in half a team. Not to compete with Bayern or Barcelona, but just to get us competitive in the League again.
A wasted year? That's what I see when I look at the players now. A group that don't see any hope for this season and just want it over with. It's not a rebuilding season, it's just a write off and the players just look like they're now talking to their agents, waiting for the cull or hoping for a fresh start.
Give Moyes the summer transfer money and another year? He's shown us nothing to say that he'd know what to do with it, at best he might get lucky and Mata/Januzaj may become a very special pairing next year. The team though? Nothing positive has happened at a team level. Maybe inside the club they an see something more positive, but I don't know who those insiders would be given the players don't seem to be thinking that way.
So instead of a gradual changing of the guard and a couple of special players to brighten up the squad, we're now talking about at least 6 to 10 players leaving/retiring and having to bring in half a team. Not to compete with Bayern or Barcelona, but just to get us competitive in the League again.
A wasted year? That's what I see when I look at the players now. A group that don't see any hope for this season and just want it over with. It's not a rebuilding season, it's just a write off and the players just look like they're now talking to their agents, waiting for the cull or hoping for a fresh start.
Give Moyes the summer transfer money and another year? He's shown us nothing to say that he'd know what to do with it, at best he might get lucky and Mata/Januzaj may become a very special pairing next year. The team though? Nothing positive has happened at a team level. Maybe inside the club they an see something more positive, but I don't know who those insiders would be given the players don't seem to be thinking that way.
Yes, I accept that this squad could match Liverpool and Arsenal if we had a quality manager (although we'd probably be playing worse football than either of them).
Is that all we want though? I want to be better than Arsenal and Liverpool. Hell, Arsenal and Liverpool want to be better than that. Yet people are still claiming this squad is "good enough". How is that close to good enough? We're supposed to be bigger and better than either of them, fighting it out for the title and eyeing up a run at the CL. That's what "good enough" should be and it's more than just Moyes that's keeping us from that level.
Our squad could match City/Chelsea if we spent a few quid last summer. Instead dithering Dave couldnt see what the rest of the world knew. Anyway he needs to look at a player for two years before he signs him according to accounts.
The summer was diabolical. Completely the wrong vibes and people forget that. Anderson indictated a worry when Sir Alex left - what you don't need to follow that is what happened. We need to be really REALLY good buying and selling in the summer
He's rotating that much that the team can't get any rhythm going at all. Then he rotates and bring players in who cannot play his system, whatever that its. All the hope the Palace game gave us, starting to play through the middle and more attacking and he messes up again.
Other than Clev yesterday, I didnt see it in the rest. He's making a worrying habit of hiding when things go bad though.
When the British were losing to the French in the Pensinsular War we didn't fire the troops we got Wellington in as general. Need I say more?
If you cut out the main five players who shouldn't be playing its still a fine squad. Thats inevitably the case when you have about thirty players in the squad. The problem is that Fellaini, Young, Valencia, Ferdinand and Vidic have made about 100 appearances between them. Replace those appearances with Jones, Kagawa, Nani, Januzaj, Evans, a Smalling who is allowed to actually play in his position, and the competent midfielder we should have signed in the summer and we'd be doing a lot better.
We go into this summer in the exact same situation as the last, needing to clear out some deadwood and bring in a top left back and a great midfielder. Except now it'll be even harder to make those signings.
Agree with the OP.
Moyes is the problem, not the players.
Moyes is the problem, not the players.
Chris Smalling has been in the match day squad for 38 out of 41 matches this season. Can anyone give me a decent explanation as to why he hasn't started as a CB in all 38 games?
It's not that difficult to grasp. We have a squad with some decent players in it, and a manager who either misuses them or ignores them in order to use other players who for one reason or another simply aren't good enough.
Kagawa is a perfect example. He hasn't contributed enough, but I've no idea if he's good enough or not, because he rarely gets picked, and when he does, he's played on the wing. The usual mantra is to not trust him because Ashley Young is fit, which makes no sense for two reasons.
THe squad for me clearly isnt good enough in certain areas, but Moyes fails to get the best out of it or even use the best players effectively in areas that shouldn't be of concern.
Last night was just a perfect example. 7 of the players he picked shouldn't be near a United team based on their performances this season (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Cleverley, Carrick, Young and Valencia) and Smalling ISN'T a fullback. So 8 unstaisfactory areas, and at most 3 where you can argue he didn't have players available who would have done better (Evra, one of Vidic/Rio and arguably one of Carrick/Cleverley).
He should be selecting teams with one or two weak areas that he's unable to address. Instead he's picking teams that have so many holes there's barely a player left in it capable of doing his job.
Kagawa is a perfect example. He hasn't contributed enough, but I've no idea if he's good enough or not, because he rarely gets picked, and when he does, he's played on the wing. The usual mantra is to not trust him because Ashley Young is fit, which makes no sense for two reasons.
THe squad for me clearly isnt good enough in certain areas, but Moyes fails to get the best out of it or even use the best players effectively in areas that shouldn't be of concern.
Last night was just a perfect example. 7 of the players he picked shouldn't be near a United team based on their performances this season (Vidic, Rio, Evra, Cleverley, Carrick, Young and Valencia) and Smalling ISN'T a fullback. So 8 unstaisfactory areas, and at most 3 where you can argue he didn't have players available who would have done better (Evra, one of Vidic/Rio and arguably one of Carrick/Cleverley).
He should be selecting teams with one or two weak areas that he's unable to address. Instead he's picking teams that have so many holes there's barely a player left in it capable of doing his job.
I think your right but Im not sure we would spend that much in one summer
just plucking figures out of the air
back up rb 10m
lb 20m
back up lb 10m
cb 20m
midfielders 25m X2
striker 20m
that's probably130m+... and if we don't have cl (which we wont) then I'm not sure I see us spending all that in one go
perhaps get a back up lb keep evra and rio for a year, give varela a try as back up rb, get one midfielder this summer and give keane / henriquez a go if hernandez goes (10 +25 = 35m)
bring back a bunch of kids from loan and let them play all the fa / league cup and early uefa rounds resting our best players for the league games and make cl qualification a must for moyes or his replacement (and I suspect spurs or liverpool will loose a few players this summer if they don't qualify for cl and whichever one does will have to cope with the tough cl midweek games giving us potentially an easier task with top 4 next year)
With Cl qualification secured then perhaps that is the time to unleash the much hyped (mythical?) transfer warchest when we can hopefully attract the very best players and complete the rebuild.
I think most players know managers can be transient in the modern game so I am not sure how much that plays into their signing for a club (unless it is a top manager like saf, pep, jose, klopp who you can imagine players actively want to play for) and high wages plus the sponsorship opportunities attached to playing for united along with the prestige and playing in the premier league should be enough to attract most players (especially if they know rooney is on 300k a week I'm sure plenty of players will be thinking then they can secure a good wage as well)