Indeed. I hope so. We should have moved on the day after in my opinion.
Confirmed: Moyes sacked.
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Honest question mate where would you have put Moyes a year ago in a list of europes top 30 Managers?
That would never have happened given human nature. You need a bit of time to reflect, relieve and then move on when a new manager is in charge.
This is just a list of decent managers, not ones that we could go for. And we're talking about last season.
So Benitez & Mancini are definitely out. Ditched by our competitors a couple of weeks earlier, hardly options for us.
Rodgers - just guided our bitterest rivals to 7th place. No chance.
Wenger - what?
Heynckes - retired.
Low - world cup year, unlikely.
Capello - as above, but maybe a little more likely since they're not likely to win it.
Lippi - possible.
Those ridiculous suggestions are still better options then Moyes though. I'm saying that Moyes shouldn't have ever been considered. He should have been in the same group as the likes of Tony Pulis, Roy Hodgson, Sam Allardyce, etc. (i.e, no chance whatsoever). That's the point I'm trying to make. All of them either have won something before or play attacking football. Moyes doesn't do either, and he's not some young manager. He's 51 and been playing the same way for the last 11 years at Everton, what made people think he'd suddenly change everything that kept him in the job at Everton? You can add Finneh's list in too. All better managers, not necessarily attainable though.
Also, we're Manchester United. Just because the people were managing another club, doesn't mean they aren't attainable. Most managers would leave their clubs in a heartbeat to manage us, especially in our situation last year, being champions and having loads of money.
Anyways, Martinez at least won a trophy with Wigan, playing better attacking football. More then Moyes has ever won. Also Pellegrini, Ancelotti and Guardiola only joined their current clubs last season. You sure they would have still went to those clubs had we gone in for them? I doubt it personally. Same with Mourinho. Conte you never know if he'd leave Juve for United, likewise Simeone. In fact there was probably a bigger chance to get Simeone last summer then this summer now that they're competing for everything.
You would have thought people would have called down by now though. I didn't even agree with sacking him so soon but I said my bit on the day and haven't mentioned it since.
The ones mainly still mentioning it are just trying to stick one last insult in just in case.
Heynckes didn't retire technically, said he doesn't want to say he'll never manage another club. Benitez, Mancini, Rodgers and Wenger are obviously out given the rivalries, Low is shit, wouldn't want Capello but then again, he's better then Moyes. Anyways, the point is that there were loads of options better suited to United. Moyes should never have been considered as I said before because he's just another mid table british manager who plays shit football.
You're missing the point.
I said how many would you put ahead of him that were available last year?
I wouldn't rank him highly overall, but the idea that we we rejected guys like Pep or Ancelotti to go for Moyes is just untrue In truth, once you look past Mou you're looking at a level where no-one is a standout candidate. Would I last summer have rated Blanc or Garcia in my handful of best managers in Europe? Probably not.
FFS get a life! You just want to look smarter blaming Fergie (yeah witch hunting is what you are doing, when you go on and on accusing them of not preparing in the last 11 years FFS!) If you still some respect for the great man, stop complaining and move on. If anything Fergie is the most heart broken seeing his own success built over 2 decade being almost destroyed by Moyes.
Leave Fergie alone if you still have a heart! Please don't reply I am done with you! Bye
He clearly wasn't, Steve. Possibly a bloke it's alright to feel a bit sorry for - but certainly no martyr. And if he is actively spinning it as martyrdom - well, then he can do one, pure and simple.
I think the Moyes experience got off on a hopeless transfer window and never got any better...... the alleged "in yer face" attitude day to day with the players, and getting rid of the likes of Molensteen pobably cemented his failure...
Whilst the Club handled his dismissal abysmally, there have been uglier sackings..... Bobby Robson at Toon springs to mind, as does Cloughie at Leeds.......... and I think most of the top European Clubs would have pulled the plug on Moyes far earlier....
anyway, let's get the next one right....
Whilst the Club handled his dismissal abysmally, there have been uglier sackings..... Bobby Robson at Toon springs to mind, as does Cloughie at Leeds.......... and I think most of the top European Clubs would have pulled the plug on Moyes far earlier....
anyway, let's get the next one right....
There's no point arguing with this stevoc guy because he would write essay after essay trying to convince you how Fergie had to take responsibility. He's made up his mind the witch hunt will go on forever. Sad really!
Yeah but apparently you haven't made your point right until you've said the same thing at least a hundred times.
Just to add to your post (which I partially agree with), it's not the quality we're complaining about, it's the sheer quantity.
To be honest the idea that you are genuinely trying to claim that last season choosing Martinez, a manager who had finally been relegated having conceded 275 goals in four seasons where he finished 16th, 16th, 15th and 18th, was a significantly more rational choice than going for Moyes just highlights the point. That people are just distorting how it happened at the time.
Absolutely right.
Moyes wasn't an irrational choice as such. What remains a mystery to me, however, is that the club seemingly sprang for him without assessing in detail what he intended to do in his new job. Going for someone who would take care of Fergie's legacy - let's put it like that - wasn't an insane strategy. Possibly not a very adventurous one and possibly overly romantic, yes. But not insane.
But hiring someone who intended to bring about major changes, rather than "simply" following in Fergie's footsteps, in that very role, i.e. the role as "caretaker" of Fergie's legacy. Well, if that is indeed what they did, it's a monumental and baffling mistake. And it's not on Moyes - it's on the board.
Moyes can't be blamed for wanting to change things unless he positively acted contrary to what he had outlined to the board. And the latter certainly doesn't seem to be the case. It would rather appear - again, it's baffling - that they didn't look very closely at precisely what his plans were. His changes clearly didn't work and, well, the whole bloody thing didn't work - but that's a different matter.
Concluding that Moyes was shite and that's all there is to it won't do here, as I see it. Someone gave him that job. And I'm not talking about Fergie. He recommended Moyes, he didn't hire him.
The Norcroft article in The Sunday Times wound me up a fair bit as did an article he'd written three or four weeks earlier where he basically lambasted all those who didn't believe in Moyes as the master tactician and decreeing that it was everyone at United bar Moyes who were to blame for our plight. I couldn't understand how hopelessly one sided his view was but what I hadn't realised was his background (sorry if this has been noted already):
http://app.theanfieldwrap.com/issue/05/Page3-northcroft.html
Yep there you have it. Fellow Scot and current resident of Liverpool. Used to ghost write Moyes column in the same paper. In short he's Moyes' pal. And in that article linked above he is, hilariously, claiming:
"Finally, bias shouldn’t come into your reporting anyway – that’s for the bloggers and the writers and wits self-consciously immersed in a club’s culture, like you’ll find so brilliantly in TAW. We in the ‘mainstream’ need to occupy different ground"
He's Moyes' mouthpiece in the media and we can expect more championing of Moyes ability whilst hysterically slating United in the coming months I imagine
http://app.theanfieldwrap.com/issue/05/Page3-northcroft.html
Yep there you have it. Fellow Scot and current resident of Liverpool. Used to ghost write Moyes column in the same paper. In short he's Moyes' pal. And in that article linked above he is, hilariously, claiming:
"Finally, bias shouldn’t come into your reporting anyway – that’s for the bloggers and the writers and wits self-consciously immersed in a club’s culture, like you’ll find so brilliantly in TAW. We in the ‘mainstream’ need to occupy different ground"
He's Moyes' mouthpiece in the media and we can expect more championing of Moyes ability whilst hysterically slating United in the coming months I imagine
I don't think i'm missing the point at all mate, i just don't subscribe to the train of thought that says only managers coming to the end of their contract are the ones available.
Truth is almost all managers are available at any given time, look at ancelotti PSG insisted all last season he was going nowhere and he was on a long contract etc. yet he left because Real made him available.
Had we drawn up a list of europes top 10-15 managers and went down it ruling people out, we would have attracted one and im pretty confident we wouldn't have had to even to go too far down the list either.
We are one of the 5 biggest football clubs on the planet, we pay generous wages to managers(what was Moyes like the 6th highest paid in the world ?). Have a large transfer budget etc.
How would that not have been attractive to pretty much every manager in the game.
P.S. i don't think we rejected Pep or Carlo either to appoint Moyes, but i think its entirely possible that Moyes was the first choice from the beginning. I read an interview with Woodward a few months back where he said as much. He said they discussed other managers basically just to rule them out as pretty much everyone on the board were already sold on Moyes.
@Barca84 He finished higher with Everton in the previous season than he did with United and a far better squad. His ability to manage was not the problem I think, it was the fact the job was bigger than his personality.
Agree with this. I think United are doing the same thing again. Van Gaal is a good choice, but honestly, i think they should have tried a little harder to try and get Klopp. I know he says that he wants to stay at Dortmund, but watching that interview last week makes me feel that if offered the chance, he would take over.
Jesus christ
Look smarter than fergie? Witch hunting again. What the feck are you going on about.Do you take every conversation about football so serious.
Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, im expressing my opinion just like everyone else on here, you just don't seem capable of having a decent discussion without throwing petty digs.
You went on and on and on how other managers were available and that the club had 11 years to prepare for Fergie's retirement. Get a grip, a mistake was made by all parties concerned appointment Moyes so fecking what, you have to write essays after essays so as to prove a point the mistake should never have been made. You have never stopped your attempt for wanting Fergie to be accountable! He's human and not God so mistakes were made. Had Moyes taken us to 4th (but for his own doing!) he would still be at the club. The board made the decision at the time,having some faith he would fit in. Who says any other manager could have fit in?? But no, you never want to let go of blaming. 11 years, the club had 11 years to prepare and they f*ucked it up, that's your main message. Right?! There is no need to repeat posts after posts methinks.Jesus christ
Do you take every conversation about football so serious.
Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, im expressing my opinion just like everyone else on here, you just don't seem capable of having a decent discussion without throwing petty digs.
Its in the news this afternoon United is not restricting its choice to Van Gaal. You never know. If reports are to be believed, his indication of have Keano to assist him sent a message he wanted to use Keano's temperament to control the dressing room. Not really an United way (or Fergie way!)
Klopp is nowhere near the candidate van Gaal is. He's built one successful side in one country and has no experience outside Germany at all.
Surely his personality plays a large part in his ability to manage?
I was posting the Norcroft stuff because his rabidly pro Moyes/anti United stance must be seen in the context of his relationship with the man ie his articles are not objective. He's got an axe to grind.
Some managers just find their level. Maybe Everton was his. He never seemed to accept the prospect of his own learning curve at United. Had he accepted that it was a step-up for him and spent the first season pretty much going with the flow, finding out what worked an what didn't and how he could work gradually over the season and over next summer to bring change about then he may still be in a job now. But I don't think he grasped the fact that this season was always going to be a learning experience for him
Did Woodward have a big role in choosing our manager after fergie left? I thought Gill played a crucial role and we all remember his interview regarding a list of potential united managers when fergie retires.
Yeah but the job he's done at Dortmund is simply incredible. And the football is just so fecking sexy.
Pretty sure most of my posts about the availability of other managers were in a discussion with another poster, whats that got to do with this?
Lol this conversation between us started yesterday, doubt i even mentioned it before then. I said Ferguson & the board should shoulder some of the responsibility for the troubles the club has endured this season, is that a controversial opinion that i alone hold?
You have kept the discussion going longer than it should have by being too emotional on the subject and acting like i was posting heinous insults towards Ferguson, i was talking about the board and directors of which SAF is one, you are in fact the one trying to force your views on me if anything. Your posts drifted towards petty digs when i wouldn't accept your view point. Get a life, you're sad etc. some of the things you have posted.
Why have you taken this all so seriously?
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I guess those involved in his appointment do take some blame but I still think it was one of those things where nobody could expect him to pull his pants down and shit on the carpet the moment he arrived. I think the feeling within the club was everything was set up and there was no appetite for any radical change, it didn't want a big personality manager to come in and rip everything apart and stay two years and sod off again. Perhaps the ideal was that Moyes was a good choice to fit into the niche that'd been created and worked well for many years and incrementally put his stamp on the club.
So yeah the people who appointed him and who contributed towards the decision take blame but I think the reasons why they appointed him were largely ignored by Moyes himself when he got the job. Not that they're absolved of blame of that either, you'd have thought they'd have got his intentions clear. Unless he mislead them.
So yeah the people who appointed him and who contributed towards the decision take blame but I think the reasons why they appointed him were largely ignored by Moyes himself when he got the job. Not that they're absolved of blame of that either, you'd have thought they'd have got his intentions clear. Unless he mislead them.
I have no idea how big a role Woodward played mate, Gill said a few times over the years the man who replaces Ferguson would have champions league experience, proven track record of success etc.
So who knows what input Gill had last summer.
I'm pretty sure it is going to be Van Gaal. Whatever the reason, United are just putting on a show about other candidates. Anyway, Roy Keane will not be part of the coaching staff.
I think possibly they're delaying because they don't want to distract the players while there's still a chance of making the Europa League.
I never felt the Moyes appointment was the right one. He was put in charge for all the wrong reasons, and in a very odd way for a top club (ie no interviews etc...just "Hey Dave, you are Manchester United manager now.")
Is it that surprising that his departure was handled in a similarly shabby manner?
Is it that surprising that his departure was handled in a similarly shabby manner?
No - it's just common sense. When an appointment goes tits-up, there is plenty of blame to go around and some of it most certainly lands at the feet of SAF.
Moyes clearly is a good manager and I although I didn't agree with the decision to appoint him, I understand the rationale behind it and hold no animosity to those who pushed for him. It didn't work out like we had hoped, but looking back on it, Moyes has only himself to blame for him getting sacked only 10 months into the job when it seemed almost a certainty he'd be given at least 2 season regardless of the results. He made some massive mistakes and ruined the relationships with people that would've actually defended him.
It all started in the summer when he made our new CEO, hand picked by the Glazers no less, look stupid and incompetent by his indecision and lolly gagging. Wodward doesn't select the players coming in, his job is to negotiate deals something he's proved very capable of doing before. It doesn't help when the manager waits around all summer, can't make his mind up about who he wants (aside from Fellaini and Baines) and targets players who are a long shot at best. When the summer transfer window closed, Ed Woodward was the subject of alot of abuse from fans, when the reality is Moyes was the one to blame for our summer. David Gill didn't land alot of our main targets, but nobody blamed him because Sir Alex always had a Plan B and C if we missed out.
Then the man who won nothing, had the brilliant idea to tell the world that last seasons Premier League champions need 6-7 world class players to compete in Europe. Not a good way to endear yourself to the squad and a far cry from Sir Alex who stood by his players, even the under performing ones like Veron in that infamous rant. He tried to float this idea that the players weren't good enough and the only way for us to be successful is if he's allowed to bring in world class players. He tried to shift blame to the players which caused them to turn on him. And don't think for one second the Glazers who still have fans who hate them appreciated being put on the spot and expected to spend millions especially when Moyes just cost them tens of millions by being unable to even get a top 4 finish.
And all the while he's alienating players with his talk about the squad not being good enough, he inadvertently put alot of heat on Sir Alex and had people blaming him for leaving a terrible squad. Then the kicker came with his "Sir Alex would struggle to" comments. Always a smart idea to put the blame on the one man who has some power who would've defended you and is the one responsible for you getting the job in the first place. My personal belief is that if Sir Alex really wanted Moyes to keep his job, then Moyes would've stayed.
It all started in the summer when he made our new CEO, hand picked by the Glazers no less, look stupid and incompetent by his indecision and lolly gagging. Wodward doesn't select the players coming in, his job is to negotiate deals something he's proved very capable of doing before. It doesn't help when the manager waits around all summer, can't make his mind up about who he wants (aside from Fellaini and Baines) and targets players who are a long shot at best. When the summer transfer window closed, Ed Woodward was the subject of alot of abuse from fans, when the reality is Moyes was the one to blame for our summer. David Gill didn't land alot of our main targets, but nobody blamed him because Sir Alex always had a Plan B and C if we missed out.
Then the man who won nothing, had the brilliant idea to tell the world that last seasons Premier League champions need 6-7 world class players to compete in Europe. Not a good way to endear yourself to the squad and a far cry from Sir Alex who stood by his players, even the under performing ones like Veron in that infamous rant. He tried to float this idea that the players weren't good enough and the only way for us to be successful is if he's allowed to bring in world class players. He tried to shift blame to the players which caused them to turn on him. And don't think for one second the Glazers who still have fans who hate them appreciated being put on the spot and expected to spend millions especially when Moyes just cost them tens of millions by being unable to even get a top 4 finish.
And all the while he's alienating players with his talk about the squad not being good enough, he inadvertently put alot of heat on Sir Alex and had people blaming him for leaving a terrible squad. Then the kicker came with his "Sir Alex would struggle to" comments. Always a smart idea to put the blame on the one man who has some power who would've defended you and is the one responsible for you getting the job in the first place. My personal belief is that if Sir Alex really wanted Moyes to keep his job, then Moyes would've stayed.
Maybe but, even if he had kept on the same coaching staff, it was still a huge leap of faith. It was like a throwback to the old days when the difference between top 4 and non top 4 didn't exist in the same sense. The idea that some potential Fergie had been at Everton for ten years competing for sixth doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Either he was not good enough for a bigger club to come in for him or he was happy in a high salary, low expectation environment. Whatever the explanation, giving him the keys to Old Trafford at the age of 50 was utterly crazy and predictably ended in a culture clash of winners vs "hard to beat".
Aye, it's true enough. People are quick to forget that a manager, regardless of how good he is where he happens to be, may not be nearly as good somewhere else. That'll always be a gamble. Perhaps Klopp and Dortmund is a perfect fit. And that he would be far less perfectly suited to the United job. Impossible to say until he's had a go. He comes across as a bright man, though. Tactically brilliant and a natural in the role. But you never know.
Moyes has done nothing to cover himself in glory that we know of - that much is clear. But Woodward could turn out to be every bit as useless at his job as Moyes was. The fact that he was handpicked by the Glazers means less than nothing. They aren't football people. And neither is Woody. He's an accountant. Probably a good one. But that will only take you so far. As far as decisions pertaining to anything beyond deals for the Asian market are concerned - I don't trust Woody at all. Not at all.
Even Moyes most dedicated cultists on Everton forums used to chuckle at the idea of him going to the monied crew of City/Chelsea/Utd/Arse. The speed of appointment was a sucker punch that didn't quite KO. All and sundry at utd staggered around repeating any old crap that was trotted out - "looking long term" - no revolution needed a la Jose!
Evertonians witnessing the dithering summer transfer were shouting "told ya!".
Problem is too many modern fans know feck all about football and depend on the clueless media most of whom wrote the moyes myth so wouldn't say a word.
SAF made a crackpot decision on this one he really did.
Evertonians witnessing the dithering summer transfer were shouting "told ya!".
Problem is too many modern fans know feck all about football and depend on the clueless media most of whom wrote the moyes myth so wouldn't say a word.
SAF made a crackpot decision on this one he really did.
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