Gary Birtles would have been a liability if he was played out wide for much of the season. Welbeck, at least, made himself useful in other ways.
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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I'm sure Gary Britles made a nice cuppa too, doesn't change the fact you've accused the other poster of lying when you were clueless about the actual point yourself.
I know what the actual point was. He hates Welbeck and thinks he's at the same level as Fryatt, which is not true at all.
I bet if you asked the fans of the 19 other teams in the league they wouldn't say he's significantly better if at all.
Bullshit. Would they be happy with Fryatt in the England squad like they are with Welbeck?
Who says they're happy with Welbeck in the England squad?
So what makes Welbeck as good as Fryatt or Fryatt better than Welbeck?
There was absolutely no criticism for his inclusion while there was for Smalling and others. There was no petition for him to be left out like there was for Cleverley. Do you think people would stay silent if they were unhappy about it? And do you think there would be acceptance if Fryatt was in instead of him?
Who cares what opposition fans think? Their underrating for our players is even more hilarious than the way we sometimes overrate them. Scholes is a case in point.
I think they're both extremely average players.
Welbeck has age and pace/physical attributes on his side but put them both in a crap team and I bet Fryatt would be considered the better player by that teams fans. I'd wager Fryatt is a better finisher for one.
Plus I don't think Danny always applies himself and especially his phsyical attributes to the best he can, someone like Fryatt definitely does.
We all want Danny to well because he's young and local but he's not good enough for us and everyone apart from United fans thinks the same. Similar situation to Cleverley.
I can see Welbeck becoming United's Aaron Ramsey once we get a managers that can have faith in him and plays him consistently in a false left wide role of a 4-3-3 system(I can not see him getting a run as a striker due to the competition). Like Ramsey, Welbeck has his critics that taught he is not good enough for their respective club. Moreover, their talent are/were both deceptive, with the factor of being indecisive in the final third, holding Welbeck potential back.
Welbeck is world class in almost every facete in his game beside what it is most important as a forward; being decisive in the final third. Looking at some of his highlights this season, I will be interested towards how Louis Van Gaal would sculpt Welbeck into a better player. He is perfect for his total footballing philosophy, so it would not surprise me if he becomes a favorite of his. The only problem is whether Van Gaal will implement a static left midfield role that would restrict Welbeck freedom, or adhere to his total football philosophy and implement a dynamic false left wing role, which Welbeck is more proficient in. If, it is the former, it will be a continuation of the debate that Welbeck is incapable of playing as a wide forward.
Welbeck is world class in almost every facete in his game beside what it is most important as a forward; being decisive in the final third. Looking at some of his highlights this season, I will be interested towards how Louis Van Gaal would sculpt Welbeck into a better player. He is perfect for his total footballing philosophy, so it would not surprise me if he becomes a favorite of his. The only problem is whether Van Gaal will implement a static left midfield role that would restrict Welbeck freedom, or adhere to his total football philosophy and implement a dynamic false left wing role, which Welbeck is more proficient in. If, it is the former, it will be a continuation of the debate that Welbeck is incapable of playing as a wide forward.
Jesus Christ, you are talking pure and utter shit. Fryatt doesn't even start for Hull while Welbeck would be their best player. Welbeck scored at an international tournament for his country, scored and was United's best player against Real Madrid, was United's best player again Bayern Munich. He has more Premier League goals this season than Fryatt has in his career.
For the record I don't think Fryatt is the better player. Welbeck is.
I just don't think it's so significant that fans of other teams would think he's miles better. And the point about them both being in a crap team still stands, Fryatt would do a better job.
I just don't think it's so significant that fans of other teams would think he's miles better. And the point about them both being in a crap team still stands, Fryatt would do a better job.
You say Fryatt's a better finisher, yet since his breakthrough season during the 2008/09 season for Leicester City in League One (32 goals in 52 games), he hasn't done much else, his next best season being the one with Hull City in the Championship (16 goals in 48 games).
I'd say that, if Welbeck was given more than 40 games for a League One, Championship, or mid-table Premier League side as a central forward player, he'd easily get 20+ goals.
So now that the finishing part's out of the way, you say Fryatt makes better use of his physical attributes. Do you not acknowledge that Welbeck used his physical attributes very well against Bayern Munich? Even then, why do you talk about applying physical attributes well? We aren't a team that normally play long-ball football (other than this season), and we always go for forwards who are more skillful than brutish. In terms of skill and technique, Welbeck does much better than Fryatt.
Now then, what else does Fryatt have above Welbeck? In what other ways do you think Welbeck equals Fryatt?
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Put Welbeck in Hull's XI for a season and he'd be snapped up by a Top 4 club the following summer. The guy has oodles of talent, he just misses a few he should be putting away. That's his only crime and it fraustrates people to the point that they overlook everything else he does and call him "crap".
Welbeck went to Sunderland when he was 19 and was one of their stand out players in a season where they finished tenth. Fryatt, at the age of 28 and in his prime, doesn't start for a team that finished 16th this season. I know you didn't bring up Fryatt in the first place but please stop saying he'd do better at a club than Welbeck because he definitely wouldn't.
If we're talking about Premier League career, then yes, that's true. Otherwise, Fryatt's scored quite a few goals in the lower levels for Leceister City (only one season, though), and then Hull City in the Championship (again, one season).
That's true. Even though Welbeck didn't get much of a look in up front, initially, because Bruce preferred the more proven Bent and Gyan ahead of him, Welbeck still was effective in a wing role and also as a forward when he was put there and started scoring key goals for Sunderland.
I can see Welbeck becoming United's Aaron Ramsey once we get a managers that can have faith in him and plays him consistently in a false left wide role of a 4-3-3 system(I can not see him getting a run as a striker due to the competition). Like Ramsey, Welbeck has his critics that taught he is not good enough for their respective club. Moreover, their talent are/were both deceptive, with the factor of being indecisive in the final third, holding Welbeck potential back.
Welbeck is world class in almost every facete in his game beside what it is most important as a forward; being decisive in the final third. Looking at some of his highlights this season, I will be interested towards how Louis Van Gaal would sculpt Welbeck into a better player. He is perfect for his total footballing philosophy, so it would not surprise me if he becomes a favorite of his. The only problem is whether Van Gaal will implement a static left midfield role that would restrict Welbeck freedom, or adhere to his total football philosophy and implement a dynamic false left wing role, which Welbeck is more proficient in. If, it is the former, it will be a continuation of the debate that Welbeck is incapable of playing as a wide forward.
Yeah, I meant Premier League. Fryatt is a good lower level striker but he's not Premier League quality IMO. While Welbeck is at least good enough to play for a team challenging for Europe.
I think someone else has already done this earlier in the thread, but let's compare the rate of goals scored per shot taken between the main goalscorers in the Premier League (only counting league and European stats because WhoScored.com doesn't cover domestic cup matches).
For reference, we'll take Welbeck's stats from the 2011/12 season: 11 goals in 87 shots -> .126 goals/shot
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Yaya Toure: 21 goals in 73 shots -> .288 goals/shot
Sergio Aguero: 23 goals in 108 shots -> .213 goals/shot
Daniel Sturridge: 21 goals in 99 shots -> .212 goals/shot
Robin van Persie: 16 goals in 78 shots -> .205 goals/shot
Aaron Ramsey: 12 goals in 60 shots -> .2 goals/shot
Danny Welbeck: 10 goals in 50 shots -> .2 goals/shot
Lukas Podolski: 8 goals in 43 shots -> .186 goals/shot
Javier Hernandez: 4 goals in 22 shots -> .182 goals/shot
Eden Hazard: 16 goals in 90 shots -> .178 goals/shot
Edin Dzeko: 18 goals in 103 shots -> .174 goals/shot
Luis Suarez: 31 goals in 181 shots -> .171 goals/shot
Alvaro Negredo: 14 goals in 83 shots -> .169 goals/shot
Theo Walcott: 6 goals in 37 shots -> .162 goals/shot
Samuel Eto'o: 12 goals in 75 shots -> .16 goals/shot
Romelu Lukaku: 15 goals in 98 shots -> .153 goals/shot
Jay Rodriguez: 15 goals in 101 shots -> .149 goals/shot
Wayne Rooney: 19 goals in 130 shots -> .146 goals/shot
Olivier Giroud: 18 goals in 124 shots -> .145 goals/shot
Wilfried Bony: 18 goals in 139 shots -> .129 goals/shot
Rickie Lambert: 13 goals in 103 shots -> .126 goals/shot
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As you can see, Welbeck hasn't had many chances to score goals from. Even then, from the few chances he's had, he's scored a decent number of goals. Do consider that this stat also counts free kicks and penalties for the shots taken, so due to the fact that Welbeck's never taken a penalty or free kick, this is more impressive.
For reference, we'll take Welbeck's stats from the 2011/12 season: 11 goals in 87 shots -> .126 goals/shot
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Yaya Toure: 21 goals in 73 shots -> .288 goals/shot
Sergio Aguero: 23 goals in 108 shots -> .213 goals/shot
Daniel Sturridge: 21 goals in 99 shots -> .212 goals/shot
Robin van Persie: 16 goals in 78 shots -> .205 goals/shot
Aaron Ramsey: 12 goals in 60 shots -> .2 goals/shot
Danny Welbeck: 10 goals in 50 shots -> .2 goals/shot
Lukas Podolski: 8 goals in 43 shots -> .186 goals/shot
Javier Hernandez: 4 goals in 22 shots -> .182 goals/shot
Eden Hazard: 16 goals in 90 shots -> .178 goals/shot
Edin Dzeko: 18 goals in 103 shots -> .174 goals/shot
Luis Suarez: 31 goals in 181 shots -> .171 goals/shot
Alvaro Negredo: 14 goals in 83 shots -> .169 goals/shot
Theo Walcott: 6 goals in 37 shots -> .162 goals/shot
Samuel Eto'o: 12 goals in 75 shots -> .16 goals/shot
Romelu Lukaku: 15 goals in 98 shots -> .153 goals/shot
Jay Rodriguez: 15 goals in 101 shots -> .149 goals/shot
Wayne Rooney: 19 goals in 130 shots -> .146 goals/shot
Olivier Giroud: 18 goals in 124 shots -> .145 goals/shot
Wilfried Bony: 18 goals in 139 shots -> .129 goals/shot
Rickie Lambert: 13 goals in 103 shots -> .126 goals/shot
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As you can see, Welbeck hasn't had many chances to score goals from. Even then, from the few chances he's had, he's scored a decent number of goals. Do consider that this stat also counts free kicks and penalties for the shots taken, so due to the fact that Welbeck's never taken a penalty or free kick, this is more impressive.
Welbeck's finishing is fine. He needs to improve the timing and quality of his runs. It's insane how little threat he poses as a left-winger when, with his long, quick strides and years as a striker, he should be making runs between the fullback and CB (like Van Persie did today) and getting chances from that.
In his first six seasons of premier league football, Shola Ameobi scored 26 goals, he got his debut at 19 and played premier league football at a time when Newcastle had the greatest premier league striker of all time ahead of him.
Shola Ameobi has gone on to make 317 league appearances scoring 53 goals.
What's your point with Welbeck, that he will go on to be as good as Ameobi?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Nowhere have I pointed out that he will become as good as Shola. Even then, Shola was more of a brute target man. Welbeck isn't, and that was apparent when Moyes tried to use him as so and failed.
Yes, they are indeed. And yet, you mention Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo. 3 United players. My point is quite simple, strikers who play for United should be great, great players. We should aspire to have the very best up there. Welbeck is not the very best. I personally doubt he'll become the very best. Maybe he will, but it remains to be seen. If you're happy for him to lead the line for this great club, that's good for you. I don't fancy mediocrity, which is what I feel he'd deliver.
I mentioned them because they are rare players. People try to expect so much on Welbeck to be world class. I assume in your term great players mean world class. World class doesn't exist a lot every year. It takes time asometime for players to be great (in your term).
Well, "strikers" The main problem is Welbeck didn't play all his games as striker this season. When he played as a striker he shows us that he can score goals during RVP absence. My point is Welbeck is still 23 years old. He will get better and better, he still has long way to go. And he can learn more things from RVP and Rooney. More experience will just get him to be even better.
Because dragging up stats as evidence to support his quality can work both ways.
His goal return is actually worse than one of the worst strikers to ever play the game, and he has played in a far better team.
The reality of the situation is he isn't a particularly good striker at the moment, he may get better, he might not.
There is nothing in his actual performances on the pitch, or his stats,to suggest that he is currently getting any better or worse.
Did Ameobi play the majority of his games from the wing?
I don't see how it matters, as Welbeck has never played on the wing either.
We can go round with that particular argument all day, as "on the wing" to most of you seems to equate to any position either side of the penalty spot.
No but neither has Welbeck. Even if he did his record isn't that brilliant, averaging just over 7 league goals a season for these last two years. That's decent but hardly prolific for a wide-player. Especially one that gets as many chances up front as he does, where he spends at least half his time. To put that in context, Mata got 6 for us last year since January and Welbeck would spend many more hours in front of goal than him.
This thread is now the punishment thread for bad scouting in the newbies.
Where does he play when him, Rooney and RVP all start?
Welbeck has played most of his league games from the wing in the last 2 seasons. The one time he got a run up front in that time he scored 6 in 7 or something similar.
Mata's finishing has been poorer than Welbeck's this season. The former made up the difference with his freekicks.
No he hasn't. If he has than this year we have played 4-5-1 all year as he's only twice started a game when he wasn't one of the two forward players.
Yes he's spent some time on the wing but no more than Rooney has been asked to do over the years yet anyone who tried to excuse his goalscoring record by saying 'He spends most of his time on the wing' they'd get laughed at.
The excuses never, ever, ever end do do they? It can't be that he's average in front of goal. It has to be other factors. Even if you say his goalscoring record isn't that great even for someone who really is an out and out winger, it still isn't enough.
If Rooney had spent most of his time on the wing then people would excuse him if his goal record wasn't great, like we did when Ronaldo was the vocal point of the team.
I do think Welbeck is average in front of goal but I think one of the reasons for that is because he isn't getting enough chances in front of goal because he's not really playing up front enough. He rarely gets chances so it's understandable he doesn't score many. Even Suarez, one of the best strikers in the world, misses his fair share of chances but his record is still great because he takes so many shots. Welbeck doesn't take many shots.
No he hasn't.
And wide of the front man isn't "on the wing" by any stretch of the imagination.
Birtles? That's far too harsh. Or, rather, it's plain wrong. Birtles was a top striker when we signed him. He had an exceptionally poor debut season - and that's where the legend originates. In his second season he grabbed 11 goals, which wasn't too shabby back then. All in all he was a good player who just didn't fit in at United.
It's surprising me a lot how a few people still think he doesn't play on the wing a lot. You don't watch him too often so you have no idea what positions he played or may be just can't accept the fact. Or may be you are forgetting that Welbeck only made 15 starters in EPL and 4 starters in Champion League. Which are not a lot of games in one season. Cutting inside doesn't mean he's not a winger. Winger doesn't always stay wide. They can also cutting inside.
Welbeck's movement is also one of the many aspect what people don't understand on what Welbeck does. His movement is giving enough space for our own players and give trouble to the opponents defenders. One of example if you look at our 3rd goal against Swansea in 1st league game by RVP. It's not just a great goal by RVP but also it was made nicely done by Rooney and Welbeck movement. The run of Rooney and Welbeck take the defenders away. I don't need to explain more detail.
Welbeck's movement is also one of the many aspect what people don't understand on what Welbeck does. His movement is giving enough space for our own players and give trouble to the opponents defenders. One of example if you look at our 3rd goal against Swansea in 1st league game by RVP. It's not just a great goal by RVP but also it was made nicely done by Rooney and Welbeck movement. The run of Rooney and Welbeck take the defenders away. I don't need to explain more detail.
That's complete BS. Relatively speaking, Welbeck has spent much more games on the wing for United, than Rooney has. More than a third of his starts, in fact.
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