Santa Barbara shooting

[Siorac]

The mind boggles, and California is supposed to have the strictest gun laws. The cops were called by the parents, and there were just so many red flags for this kid. Why didn't the fecking NSA catch it.

Even California's "strict" gun laws are incredibly lenient when compared to most European countries. In the UK the kid could never have got a single gun, let alone three.

 

[Siorac]

The world is full of people like him, people who blame others for their own shortcomings. It's always easier to play the victim/martyr than making an effort to change what's wrong with your life.
Mix that with a mental disease and let it happen in a nation where you get a gun with a pack of cornflakes and you'll keep having situations like this over and over again.

Guns are definately a big part of the problem but I feel there's something wrong with the education aswell. Altough it would be a good first step, banning guns alone won't solve the problem, a nutcase that wants to go on a rampage won't have much trouble getting his hands on a gun on the black market anyway.

I'm not sure about that. I like to think that I'm not a nutcase but if I were and wanted to go on a rampage I'd have absolutely no idea where to get my hands on a gun. I wouldn't even know where to start. Not all nutcases have the right connections or social skills to find the people who can help them.

 

[Vato]

I'm not sure about that. I like to think that I'm not a nutcase but if I were and wanted to go on a rampage I'd have absolutely no idea where to get my hands on a gun. I wouldn't even know where to start. Not all nutcases have the right connections or social skills to find the people who can help them.

I don't know where you live but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to buy a gun over here in Belgium if you venture into the parts of the city most people avoid. Let alone in America.

 

[Siorac]

I don't know where you live but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to buy a gun over here in Belgium if you venture into the parts of the city most people avoid. Let alone in America.

I live in Hungary, we have fairly strict gun control here and gun-related crimes are very rare. I'm really not sure where I should go and I'm certain it wouldn't be easy to get one. Difficulties in obtaining a gun won't stop all lunatics but it might deter some of them.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

It'd deter the middle class kids. No chance a gimp like him would manage to get a gun. He'd get mugged before he even found the right back alley.

 

[Pexbo]

Meanwhile, the trailer for Wolf of Wall Street is 'telling' young men that they can f*ck people over, be a criminal, be as arrogant as God himself & these things plus a smidgen of actual ability will win you beautiful women, riches and Ferraris. Sigh.

Possibly the most Daily Mail thing you have ever written.

 

[OneUnited24]

Its weird but i started to read his manifesto (to see what the fuss is about) and i cant help but feel like his videos its all scripted and staged, almost as though hes not writing it in the first person but kind of like how he imagined thats how a evil person would write/think. I'm not condoling his actions but you wonder if he was actually that warped and twisted or if its all just a act so he can justify killing. If its the latter you think his parents should have tried harder to reach him

Doesnt matter in the end but strange none-the-less

 

[Cerpin]

It'd deter the middle class kids. No chance a gimp like him would manage to get a gun. He'd get mugged before he even found the right back alley.

Yep. The guy also had crippling social anxiety. If he's too afraid to speak to people in his class, there's no way he'd seek out criminals for buying weapons.

 

[Shark]

Didn't he apparently stab two or three of his victims too?

 

[OneUnited24]

Didn't he apparently stab two or three of his victims too?

Yeah 3 people were found in his apartment stabbed to death.

Early reports claimed to be his room mates

 

[Shark]

Yeah 3 people were found in his apartment stabbed to death.

Early reports claimed to be his room mates

So there we go, if this guy didn't have a gun, he'd probably still have gone on a rampage. He'd possibly not have killed as many people mind you.

 

[Siorac]

So there we go, if this guy didn't have a gun, he'd probably still have gone on a rampage. He'd possibly not have killed as many people mind you.

And that's quite significant, I'm sure you agree. People will find ways to kill other people but let's make it as difficult as reasonably possible.

 

[OneUnited24]

So there we go, if this guy didn't have a gun, he'd probably still have gone on a rampage. He'd possibly not have killed as many people mind you.

But we dont know how he managed to kill his room mates, its likely he got them while they were sleeping as 3 on 1, even with a knife, i'm sure they would have overpowered him. The point, as you addressed, is if he didnt have easy access to guns more would have been saved.

 

[Shark]

And that's quite significant, I'm sure you agree. People will find ways to kill other people but let's make it as difficult as reasonably possible.

I completely agree. As mentioned, I highly doubt that this guy could overpower a mouse, so that limits the damage he could inflict with a knife. Either way though, he was a ticking bomb.

 

[Señor]

His plan was to go to the hottest sorority house, kill everyone there, go to his father's house and kill his little brother (who he didn't want surpassing him) and his stepmother, then run over as many people as he can with an SUV (as it'll be better suited for crushing people than his coupe) while opening fire on those he finds attractive or good looking.

We can just thank God most of that didn't come to pass. Still, 7 people died and for what? A deranged lunatic who couldn't get laid.

 

[sullydnl]

As I said earlier in thread, there's no point in focusing solely on the gun control issue, the misogyny, the mental illness, his family life or any other single factor. In a case like this it's a perfect storm where all these factors play some part, whether by causing his anger, being a manifestation of it or helping him kill more people. Without knowing the ins and outs of the case and his circumstances we really can't definitively say what "caused" it or even what the dominant factor was.

Limiting his access to guns would certainly have made it much more difficult for him to kill as many people as he did but if you turn it into just a gun control story you're likely to ignore other possible issues that could have helped to cause this.

It's the same thing with the misogyny point Alex99 was making earlier in the thread, it was a fair point but it hardly explains the whole incident when his roommates, parents and little brother were also targets.

 

[Eboue]

I've stayed out of this thread until now because I wanted to gather my thoughts. I am so beyond fed up with the gun lobby in this country. I thought that things might actually change after Sandy Hook. I thought that when dozens of little 5 and 6 year olds were killed in their school, something might change. I thought that for all the bluster about video games and mental health systems, the gun lobby would finally look inward and realize that something needs to change. But they didn't. They doubled down. Gun sales went up. The NRA sent out emails about Obama trying to take everyone's guns and they went up some more. Obama didn't try to take anyone's guns. He knows the battle is lost. He didn't even try and still more guns were bought than ever before. Now we have new laws passed every year expanding places where people can carry guns. Churches, bars, public transportation. Whatever! More guns, for everyone, wherever the feck they want. The gun lobby won. They will always win. And every few months we will have another horrible mass shooting and every year we have another 30,000 gun deaths in this country. And we just have to chalk it up to the price of doing business. Because when it comes down to it, some people care more about owning guns than about dead children. I know responsible gun owners who like to hunt. I know responsible gun owners who go to a gun range on the weekend and like to feel the power. I know responsible gun owners who live in bad neighborhoods and want to protect their families. I understand all the arguments. I sympathize with them. But at some point, we have to reevaluate. We have to ask, is this worth it? Is never being able to feel safe worth it? Is a routine school shooting worth it? Reasonable people ask this. Reasonable gun owners ask this. But not the gun lobby. The answer is always more guns. If crime is low, it is because there are so many guns. If crime is high, it is because we need more guns. And not only more guns. More guns for absolutely anyone who wants it. Background checks? They oppose it. Waiting period? They oppose it. Restricting on types of guns? They oppose it. And they've won. They will always win. Nothing will ever fecking happen to change this. Dozens of children were gunned down in their school, a place they should feel safe and where they make friends and dream about the future. Polls showed widespread support for changes to gun laws. But nothing was done. The gun lobby wins and children die. It will never ever change.

 

[Señor]

I've stayed out of this thread until now because I wanted to gather my thoughts. I am so beyond fed up with the gun lobby in this country. I thought that things might actually change after Sandy Hook. I thought that when dozens of little 5 and 6 year olds were killed in their school, something might change. I thought that for all the bluster about video games and mental health systems, the gun lobby would finally look inward and realize that something needs to change. But they didn't. They doubled down. Gun sales went up. The NRA sent out emails about Obama trying to take everyone's guns and they went up some more. Obama didn't try to take anyone's guns. He knows the battle is lost. He didn't even try and still more guns were bought than ever before. Now we have new laws passed every year expanding places where people can carry guns. Churches, bars, public transportation. Whatever! More guns, for everyone, wherever the feck they want. The gun lobby won. They will always win. And every few months we will have another horrible mass shooting and every year we have another 30,000 gun deaths in this country. And we just have to chalk it up to the price of doing business. Because when it comes down to it, some people care more about owning guns than about dead children. I know responsible gun owners who like to hunt. I know responsible gun owners who go to a gun range on the weekend and like to feel the power. I know responsible gun owners who live in bad neighborhoods and want to protect their families. I understand all the arguments. I sympathize with them. But at some point, we have to reevaluate. We have to ask, is this worth it? Is never being able to feel safe worth it? Is a routine school shooting worth it? Reasonable people ask this. Reasonable gun owners ask this. But not the gun lobby. The answer is always more guns. If crime is low, it is because there are so many guns. If crime is high, it is because we need more guns. And not only more guns. More guns for absolutely anyone who wants it. Background checks? They oppose it. Waiting period? They oppose it. Restricting on types of guns? They oppose it. And they've won. They will always win. Nothing will ever fecking happen to change this. Dozens of children were gunned down in their school, a place they should feel safe and where they make friends and dream about the future. Polls showed widespread support for changes to gun laws. But nothing was done. The gun lobby wins and children die. It will never ever change.

Well said, mate. I can't still wrap my head around how easily you can get a gun in the US. Such a sad state of affairs.

 

[Siorac]

I still hope that one day it WILL change. I don't know why. I just can't imagine this going on indefinitely; surely, at one point, people will have enough?

 

[Eboue]

What's it going to take, someone shooting up a maternity ward? Then they will want to arm nurses.

 

[Señor]

I don't see change happening any time soon. If the slaughter of innocent 5-6 year old children isn't enough, then what is?

 

[sullydnl]

Realistically you'd probably need to have a cultural shift where the idea of gun ownership becomes less attractive and you'd have to deal with the power of the gun lobby. Very, very difficult to imagine it happening in our lifetime.

Even then you'd still have massive availability of guns through illegal means and a lot of people turning a blind eye to gun ownership as it is simply too deeply ingrained in American society (or at least parts of it). It would take decades for things to really improve from that point even.

One thing is for sure though, mass killings like this will have zero effect, no matter how horrific they are. The gun lobby has had too much practice in willfully ignoring these event, even twisting them to suit their own narrative.

 

[africanspur]

I can't imagine that anything will change the mind of the NRA. Their ideology is already so shorn of logic that I can't see what event would get them to agree to change.

It will just require a president with enough political capital and who isn't someone who can seemingly relatively easily be sold off as a communist socialist Islamist black non American (delete as necessary) who wants to take away your freedoms to take them on and implement even limited reforms and be able to handle the backlash from the gun lobby.

 

[Tarrou]

I don't think I've ever seen someone manage to write three consecutive words that end with 'ly' before. Followed it up with three consecutive words that end in 'ist' too, and all in one of the longest sentences ever written. Impressive stuff.

 

[Randall Flagg]

It'd deter the middle class kids. No chance a gimp like him would manage to get a gun. He'd get mugged before he even found the right back alley.

yep this is the point most people wouldnt have a clue how to obtain a gun illegally.

I wouldnt have a clue.

In the states its obviously easy to get one and easy to train how to use them

 

[Shark]

While I agree that things need to change and fast, this particular case isn't necessarily a mass shooting. He killed most of his victims with a knife and another with his car. He shot two people.

Still, it's depressing that an other brutal mess like this is needed to open debate again, and in two weeks it'll be forgotten until the next one.

 

[Grinner]

While I agree that things need to change and fast, this particular case isn't necessarily a mass shooting. He killed most of his victims with a knife and another with his car. He shot two people.

Still, it's depressing that an other brutal mess like this is needed to open debate again, and in two weeks it'll be forgotten until the next one.

That's a good point and one that will undoubtedly be used by the NRA. 'Only' shooting 2 people is still fecking awful though. It's quite something when 2 is considered lucky.

 

[adexkola]

I disagree. There are plenty of narcissists, socio/psychopaths out there, and they don't go out on killing sprees. Those tendencies were likely to be a contributing factor in the extremity of his actions, but they certainly weren't the root of them. He didn't have a history of blood-lust, he had a history of misogyny.

His attack was based on the belief that the women of the world owed him sex because he was the "supreme gentlemen." If you remove the violence it's typical "nice-guy" rhetoric, and the sort of stuff you see spouted all of the time in MRA circles. He felt an entitlement to women, and chose the most extreme way of reacting to this entitlement not being fulfilled. In addition to his whole "supreme gentlemen" crap, he was also on about being "the alpha-male," which is typical of another misogynist circle known as 'The Red Pill'.

His misogyny was amplified by his narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies, not caused by them. He had multiple videos, online posts, and a 140 page manifesto about his hatred of women.

I don't see how this incident or guy is related to either MRA or the red pill.

At the end of a day, people from both sexes were killed.

 

[Alex99]

I don't see how this incident or guy is related to either MRA or the red pill.

At the end of a day, people from both sexes were killed.

Because a lot of what he said echoed stuff that regularly appears in those circles.

"I am a gentlemen, why don't women like me?" - Typical MRA nice-guy talk

"Women are all attracted to obnoxious brutes when they should be attracted to gentlemen like me" - Typical of MRA nice-guy talk and echoes RedPill alpha talk.

"I have not had sex because women have denied me it" - Typical of RedPill "women control access to sex" talk

"Women are too stupid to know what they want because they should clearly want me" - Typical RedPill talk about "weak minded" women

"My father gives this woman too much power, she must be good in bed" - Typical of both MRA and RedPill talk about women using sex to manipulate men

Granted, he took the absolute extreme measure, but a lot of what he said would have gone unchecked in those circles because it completely echoes their way of thinking.

As for the men he killed, his manifesto repeatedly talks about his hatred of men, and he hates them because he feels that they have had sex with women that he was entitled to have sex with. He doesn't hate them because they're men, he hates them because he hates the women that they've had sex with. His oldest friend was a virgin just as he was, and he was his oldest friend because he insulted anyone that he believed to have had sex, which inevitably was most of the people his age. There are countless tales of him hating people for kissing girls, having sex with them, and even just assuming that they'd done so. He targeted women because he felt that they had denied him sex he was entitled to. He then targeted the men that he assumed these women had had sex with. He said he was going to go to a sorority house and "slaughter" the women there, and he drove up that sorority house and shot at the women there, killing two of them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How does one go about moving in these "circles", then?

Never heard of either of them but they sound like good craic.

 

[Red Dreams]

NRA still does not want background checks I assume.

...will affect gun sales.

understandable.

 

[Eboue]

How does one go about moving in these "circles", then?

Never heard of either of them but they sound like good craic.

I think they hang out in the protein powders thread.

 

[Raul Madrid]

As well as guns and weapons, something seriously has to be done about mental health care.

 

[sullydnl]

Because a lot of what he said echoed stuff that regularly appears in those circles.

"I am a gentlemen, why don't women like me?" - Typical MRA nice-guy talk

"Women are all attracted to obnoxious brutes when they should be attracted to gentlemen like me" - Typical of MRA nice-guy talk and echoes RedPill alpha talk.

"I have not had sex because women have denied me it" - Typical of RedPill "women control access to sex" talk

"Women are too stupid to know what they want because they should clearly want me" - Typical RedPill talk about "weak minded" women

"My father gives this woman too much power, she must be good in bed" - Typical of both MRA and RedPill talk about women using sex to manipulate men

Granted, he took the absolute extreme measure, but a lot of what he said would have gone unchecked in those circles because it completely echoes their way of thinking.

As for the men he killed, his manifesto repeatedly talks about his hatred of men, and he hates them because he feels that they have had sex with women that he was entitled to have sex with. He doesn't hate them because they're men, he hates them because he hates the women that they've had sex with. His oldest friend was a virgin just as he was, and he was his oldest friend because he insulted anyone that he believed to have had sex, which inevitably was most of the people his age. There are countless tales of him hating people for kissing girls, having sex with them, and even just assuming that they'd done so. He targeted women because he felt that they had denied him sex he was entitled to. He then targeted the men that he assumed these women had had sex with. He said he was going to go to a sorority house and "slaughter" the women there, and he drove up that sorority house and shot at the women there, killing two of them.

Then why do you think he targeted his parents and little brother as well? That doesn't seem to have anything to do with a hatred of women.

 

[Red Dreams]

gun control will come....as a side effect of progressives eventually taking over congress.

 

[Alex99]

Then why do you think he targeted his parents and little brother as well? That doesn't seem to have anything to do with a hatred of women.

He targeted his little brother because his little brother had "social advantages" that he felt he didn't have, and as such would be able to have sex. He showed resentment towards his father for allowing his step-mother too much power, concluding that she must have been good in bed. He also expressed some resentment because his father never "told him" how to attract women. He hated his step-mother for attempting to discipline him and for manipulating his father through sex. He expressed resentment towards his mother for refusing to abandon her happiness and marry a wealthy man for his benefit. Everything in his manifesto comes back to misogynistic ideas, of either entitlement to sex, or male dominance over women. The most pertinent part of it all was his hatred of women for not having sex with him. There were clearly other factors involved, but almost all of it can be traced back to misogyny.

 

[Silent_Running]

Alex seems to hate misogynists as much as Elliott Rodger hated women. and seems to blame them for everything like Rodger blamed women for everything. And seems to think he's the only one who can see it, like....

 

[Alex99]

Alex seems to hate misogynists as much as Elliott Rodger hated women. as seems to blame them for everything like Rodger blamed women for everything. And seems to think he's the only one who can see it, like....

What even is this post?

 

[Shamwow]

I don't think its sex he really wanted rather than status. He seemed obsessed with proving his superiority to others. He didn't appear to understand people at all and for whatever reason he grew up thinking that status can be gained through friends (not friendship but how many friends you have), appearance, attention, sex, money and finally violence.

He also seemed to only respond to instant gratification. He died his hair as a 10 year old and someone complimented him, he felt good. A girl hugged him and he felt good. A girl was mean to him and he felt really bad.

I think this was a major part of his hatred for women. Men feel good when we get attention from women and he couldn't understand why he wasn't getting any. Because he couldn't see his own flaws, it had to be their fault. He saw other boys having good lives getting lots of attention from women and resented them for it.

Eventually he gave up on any other way in life to get what he wanted. He even convinced himself that he was destined to win the lottery and cried for an entire night when he didn't. After that I guess the only way remaining for him to acquire his status and feel above everyone else who he hated for having superior lives (while being inferior people) was to do what he did.

 

[Silent_Running]

What even is this post?

Just making the point that you're obsessed, and obsession is dangerous.