You can easily play Januzaj there as well. LVG already played him in a bloody midfield and explained that he knows that Adnan can make things happen because he's creative. Fits the bill perfectly.
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Of course they would but that's only a potential loss of earnings. They crystallise that loss the moment they sign Kagawa from us. Obviously, a different scenario.
He wouldn't be though. You're sort of assuming we're playing in a system where by players have strict positions to play in and can't alternate based on who is/isn't available to play. If Mata can't play for whatever reason, then Adnan, Di Maria etc can also play in his position. Likewise if RvP is injured, Rooney can play there. It really doesn't have to be a case of having a flat-out backup player, like you seem to be suggesting.
I will reiterate, Kagawa going has no effect on Mata, for me, because he's not the only player in the squad who can also play where Mata does.
Fact it, Kagawa isn't THAT good for a team like United to be built around him. He's not imposing, and he's not and was never a "go to" type of player. He's a fine player, neat and simple etc. He had his chances but he never really imposed himself on the team, it happens, time to move on.
This is related to Kagawa because his sale for a low price suggests he is not second choice but third choice, I then thought Mata might be on the bench.
My conclusion was this:
Vision - 4-3-3 with the point forward.
Rooney cannot be dropped because he said when manager of Netherlands that his captain always plays when fit. So he must choose between RVP and Mata.
For me, if he chose Mata then Rooney would be up top and Kagawa would be kept unless a fairer offer came in since Kagawa would be a straight swap for Mata as a 10.
(If Mata gets injured and Rooney takes up another position, this will hamper his goal scoring form. When he scores he goes on a run, Louis van Gaal will be aware of this, Alex Ferguson also talked about it. We must let Rooney hit goal scoring form and let him maintain it, you won't build momentum by making him perform a different role).
Kagawa is being sold and also for a price less than Cleverley, he really is not needed so that's when I realised Mata could be sitting on the bench.
Louis van Gaal has already stated 4-3-3 is what he would like to play but he needs specialist wingers. 3-5-2 is temporary, he has signed a specialist winger.
He has two, Angel di Maria and Adnan. For him to move one then he would have to play Young or Valencia out wide and we know he doesn't want to do that.
Your solution would force him to move back to 3-5-2 or play Young / Valencia on the wings. If Mata was first choice then he would just keep Kagawa since the offer is only £8m.
The fact he is willing to sell suggests Mata is not first choice but actually second.
You cannot use Herrera there, who would be number 8? Anderson? Fellaini? TC23 has left us also it looks like.
You cannot use Adnan or Angel because who will be on the wing? Young? Valencia?
The only other choice is to drop Rooney back to 10 but we all know how he operates, he scores and he goes on a run of scoring goals. Ferguson always talked about this and Ryan Giggs would have notified Louis van Gaal therefore to maximise Rooney's goal scoring form we should keep him as a 9, Rooney has also spoken in the past how he doesn't like to be messed about because it's hard to build momentum.
Keeping Kagawa would be desirable unless Mata has been chosen for the bench and the sale of Kagawa for only £8m suggests this.
Reportedly Kagawa had two bids therefore I think that money was gone anyway.
No it doesn't.
To be honest, the price compared to Clev is a red herring I think. As Pogue pointed out we might still have add ons that we've yet to pay - they may even be triggered this year. Indeed its even possible we haven't paid the full basic amount yet, depending on how many years the payment was structured over, its only been two and bit years after all. So it might only be £8M in cash, but with another couple of mill in savings.
You also have to factor in that the guys on £4M+ per year wages. So keeping him for another year only makes sense if you're going to either play enough to be worth it, or get an extra £4M for him (plus the price of any add ons we may have to pay) next season.
I'm just speculating of course, but the point is that a side by side cash comparison with Cleverly may not be possible for various reasons.
You think Kagawa is worth £8m?
He is worth much more.
It's simple.
We will sell him even when undervalued because he will not be on the bench with Mata quite possibly sitting there.
If Mata was going to be used as a first choice 10 then it makes sense not to sell Shinji for a low price but instead a fair valuation.
The fanfare he gets here is ridiculous. No other player has gotten so much acclaim for doing so less.
IMO he isn't suited to this league. He looks nice on the ball, does a few pretty things, a cute pass here or a dribble there but the fact is he doesn't impose himself on games at all.
When we signed him I was hoping we had signed a player that could run a football match and more importantly give us creativity from central areas. I've seen Kagawa do this only once or twice in a red shirt.
I think he'll probably go on to have a good career. Probably will reinvigorate himself at Dortmund and then go to Spain or Italy and do well. But for us there is no doubt he has been an utter flop. It is interesting that both Moyes and Van Gaal seem to have had the same initial assessment of Kagawa. It must be something with the player, then.
IMO he isn't suited to this league. He looks nice on the ball, does a few pretty things, a cute pass here or a dribble there but the fact is he doesn't impose himself on games at all.
When we signed him I was hoping we had signed a player that could run a football match and more importantly give us creativity from central areas. I've seen Kagawa do this only once or twice in a red shirt.
I think he'll probably go on to have a good career. Probably will reinvigorate himself at Dortmund and then go to Spain or Italy and do well. But for us there is no doubt he has been an utter flop. It is interesting that both Moyes and Van Gaal seem to have had the same initial assessment of Kagawa. It must be something with the player, then.
FFS - This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on here.
This is Kagawa. Leave logic at the door.
The argument is this:FFS - This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on here.
Rooney is captain and Louis van Gaal has said his captain always plays.
He wants to revert to 4-3-3 (point forward) he has made this clear but he needs the right players. When he does he must choose between RVP and Mata.
He will choose RVP.
Juan Mata would be second choice number 10, it makes sense to move Kagawa on now.
What is ridiculous?
In all honesty, if the estimated price is correct, yes it's not much indeed, but Dortmund sold him for peanuts when he was a star in Dortmund and his value should have clearly degressed since.
What people (haters?) don't understand is that he is a great player. The style and tactic just does not go well with him. Also, some certain team mates seem to be unable to move in a clever and intelligent way when Kagawa has the ball. I'm not saying he would solve all the issues, but he really represents a more movement based way of playing, which we all want in the team, but apparently not the player(s) who excell in just that.
You're right, there. If only on the basis that a "great player" would have a hell of a lot more than two good half seasons on his cv by the time he's 26 years old.
Can you imagine if we had Kagawa when Ronnie/Rooney and Tevez were at the club
Right player, wrong time. That sums up Kagawa for me.
I can. He would have been on the bench. Who gets dropped from that team to give Kagawa games?Can you imagine if we had Kagawa when Ronnie/Rooney and Tevez were at the club
Right player, wrong time. That sums up Kagawa for me.
He's far far too weak defensively to allow us play without Park, not good enough going forwards to drop one of our more attacking players and not good enough in central midfield to displace Carrick or Scholes.
Wrong player, wrong time.
I'm sad to see him go but it never worked out for him here unfortunately.
Berbatov and his first 2 seasons
He was actually supposed to play a similar role to Kagawa (creative hub) and at least managed to score 26 goals in those two seasons (compared to Kagawa's grand total of 6)
he played most games and obviously would be more of a goal scorer
I doubt we'd ever have an agreement with them re hummels and reus but it certainly won't harm the relationship between the two clubs. The price is really low but there's no point in him staying.
Dortmund sold him for £17m with add ons in the last year of his contract.
He refused to sign a new contract so he was always going to leave.
United are selling for £10m with add ons but he is not in the last year of the contract or anything.
Empires had to literally imagine a fantastic scenario that we have no idea will happen because his world view can't compete with Kagawa only being worth 8 million.
That's his worth in the market at this current time. It's so stupid to say "he's only going for this much because x, y and a might happen" when in reality he's going because he's a squad player LVG doesn't rate much more than 8 million.
That's his worth in the market at this current time. It's so stupid to say "he's only going for this much because x, y and a might happen" when in reality he's going because he's a squad player LVG doesn't rate much more than 8 million.
Because his worth at the time was a lot higher. At the time clubs like Real and United wanted him.
Now he's a reserve at United. Getting his run outs with Anderson and Powell in midfield.
So, he's worth as much as Cleverley...
Hopefully it works out for him as he's a nice guy and a good player(imo), but he'' been a disappointment since he joined.
Hopefully it works out for him as he's a nice guy and a good player(imo), but he'' been a disappointment since he joined.
A great player adapts to positions and tactics. You might not play the offensive player in defense - but it would not matter if he is played left or right or center. A great player anticipates the actions of his fellow players and does not need a set system.
If we want rid, his price will be determined by what other teams are willing to pay. I suspect he wants to return to Dortmund, and the club may feel he got a bit of a raw deal at United and don't want to stand in his way. Of course his stint at United hasn't exactly enhanced his value.
It's quite simple really, he failed to adapt to United and English football.
Good player but I think it's got to the point where nobody can in all honesty see him playing much or being a huge success here.
As long as we get a good deal we may as well let him go & use the money to buy someone we will actually use.
As long as we get a good deal we may as well let him go & use the money to buy someone we will actually use.
You know what I said about you missing points?
Let's do an exercise.
Read that post and spot the key point.
Dortmund sold him for £17m with add ons in the last year of his contract.
Meaning: He was probably worth more than £17m but because he refused to sign a new contract and would have gone on a free the following season Dortmund had to let him go.
United are selling him for £10m including add ons, it is not unreasonable to say he is worth more especially when TC23 is £9m.
Meaning: He was probably worth more than £17m but because he refused to sign a new contract and would have gone on a free the following season Dortmund had to let him go.
United are selling him for £10m including add ons, it is not unreasonable to say he is worth more especially when TC23 is £9m.
No. I never mentioned transfer fees...
Yep. He's flopped so naturally his value will decrease. We also clearly want to sell and reduce our wage bill.
Most neutrals would say he was hardly given a chance to 'adapt' to Utd and English football.
Don't really see how that's relevant, other than highlighting how far his value has fallen.
Well he's played under multiple managers. If he still wasn't given that chance then he clearly didn't do enough to impress.
So you are implying if Mata was playing first choice as number 10, keeping Kagawa would not be desirable.
You have accepted Louis van Gaal seems to want to move toward 4-3-3 and he is working on this. 3-5-2 is a temporary solution.
You have suggested Angel di Maria or Adnan could replace Mata in the event of an injury or rotation. Yet then you must imply Valencia or Young should play on our wings.
You have suggested Herrera could play 10 but you then must seem content with Anderson or Fellaini as an 8.
You have otherwise implied it is ok to move Rooney from number 9 to 10 back to 9 instead of letting him build momentum in one position.
Keeping Kagawa would be the easiest solution unless a fair offer came in for him. As it is he is being sold for an offer that suggests we just want to get rid so when Louis van Gaal moves to 4-3-3 he will likely choose RVP + Rooney and drop Mata.
Kagawa at this point really is not needed and should be sold for any price.
Now in your reply address why you think Young and Valencia are fine on the wings when Angel or Adnan replace Mata.
Also, address why you think Marianne or Anderson are fine in the middle when Herrera moves up.
And also why you think Wayne Rooney will still perform to his absolute best even when he is not allowed to develop momentum in one position.
Otherwise accept if Mata is chosen ahead of RVP then Kagawa would still be useful to keep around thus selling him for a fair valuation only would make sense.
You appear to be saying that everyone's missing points, which leads me to believe that either you're a genius who nobody can comprehend, or, your points are really flawed and you're not expressing them well.
I'll pick the latter.
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