We were playing like this all season when we didn't have half as many injuries. Basically the excuses then were until be have an upgraded back 4 its hard to judge LVG. The facts are this team with that upgraded back 4 would then be one of the best squads in Europe who any number of managers could reasonable expect to win things with!
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Thing is, this game would have gone a lot smoother if he hadn't succumbed to his insatiable need to accommodate RVP and we'd had an extra body in midfield. Herrera would have made a hell of a difference.
I think I know what you mean. Under Moyes, whenever the momentum was against us and we looked under pressure, we inevitably conceded or lost. Now against Chelsea when they took the lead, City, West Brom and today with all the pressure Arsenal had, we did buckle. It feels like we can handle things, that we're tough enough to stand up and ride the pressure.
We got a result against a tough opponent but I think LVG's formation left us open to getting thrashed in the first 30 minutes. While I grant our injury crisis, he played a back 3 with Smalling centering McNair and Blackett, two young defenders with very little PL experience, let alone against the best sides. IMO we should've kept to a backline of 4 with Shaw and Valencia as fullbacks. Wenger saw that besides having only 3 in the backline (which we've been piss poor with), we only had Fellaini and Carrick stationed in a middle 2 when we needed to crowd that area and prevent Arse from breaking through it. Arsenal were on this early and we were on our backfoot for most of the 1st half. DDG was a lifesaver today, though he didn't help himself a few times either with his bad distribution.
Having said all this, we did settle into the formation after a while and got gradually better. I guess a large part of the uneasiness amongst the players is their constant changing of lineup and formation but on the PL level I'm expecting us to adapt a bit better than we've been seeing. There are stretches of games where we look nervous and confused, which 15 or so games in shouldn't be happening as much. But I really am sold on LVG righting things eventually, I'd put my money on it.
Having said all this, we did settle into the formation after a while and got gradually better. I guess a large part of the uneasiness amongst the players is their constant changing of lineup and formation but on the PL level I'm expecting us to adapt a bit better than we've been seeing. There are stretches of games where we look nervous and confused, which 15 or so games in shouldn't be happening as much. But I really am sold on LVG righting things eventually, I'd put my money on it.
That's the only critique I can think of at the moment. Push Rooney up front and bring Herrera in.
Horrible lineup led to a horrible performance... but we won. So not sure what to make of LVG in terms of this match.
I can't help but feel that a better line-up - four at the back, Herrera in midfield, RVP dropped - could have seen us win this game deservingly, rather than by the skin of our teeth.
I can't help but feel that a better line-up - four at the back, Herrera in midfield, RVP dropped - could have seen us win this game deservingly, rather than by the skin of our teeth.
Yea. We know from past experience that Rooney absolutely thrives when provided good wing service. To get the best out of both Rooney and Di Maria, we need to play Rooney up front.
I actually thought he subbed off RvP pretty early tonight. Let's hope he's on the bench for the next game
Incredible to get a win there considering all the injuries.
Whole back four plus one
Blind
Falcao
Let's see how Chelsea would fare at Arsenal without their whole back four, their next best CB (whoever that is, they never need him), Matic and Costa.
Whole back four plus one
Blind
Falcao
Let's see how Chelsea would fare at Arsenal without their whole back four, their next best CB (whoever that is, they never need him), Matic and Costa.
Terrible performance, but we got the 3 points, our first away win this season against Arsenal, despite our ridiculous amount of injuries. In addition to that, we are 4th at the moment. I'm delighted.
Think he's discovering the truism "no games are easy in the Prem". You can't fanny around like the previous big clubs he's had where the rank and file of the leagues know their fecking place and don't get uppity with all that tackling and trying to win shite.
He looks shocked by the whole deal.
He looks shocked by the whole deal.
Means nothing considering it's all based on luck not performances, we are lucky because the teams around us have been awful aswell, if the teams around us were performing like they did last season then we'd be probably in the bottom half of the table. Our current 4th place is nothing to do with LVG it's just pure good luck.
The critics need to get off his back. If we didn't have so many injuries I'm convinced we'd be doing much better. It must be very frustrating as he can never have a consistent team when they're injured all the time.
Oh Dear! I guess Chelsea are lucky too for been on top of the table. Minimal injuries so far
Go to bed.
Oh you, don't talk so much sense in here!
I'm still furious with him. We got the 3 points, but that's two awful matches in a row. We haven't attacked well ever since the change in formation and the team selections are largely poor. The Van Persie issue still remains, too. My confidence in him isn't wavering, as we'll improve as players return from injury, but I'm not happy with the last couple of games at all.
I have always and will continue to maintain that the manager is judged by mainly one thing, and that's the results of the team. In the respect he obviously came out of today in the green.
There will always be circumstances and mitigating factors, such as our current surreal string of injuries, but at the end of the day all that matters this season is getting back into the Champions League. As of right now, we've put ourselves into a position where that looks very doable, despite our terrible start, and LvG must get credit for it.
Given City's shaky form, we should really be aiming at giving them a proper contest for second. We're not that far behind, and a good run of results leading up until the new year will put us in ago of place for doing just that. Despite our spending, that would make a very decent season for us, given where we came from and our injuries.
There will always be circumstances and mitigating factors, such as our current surreal string of injuries, but at the end of the day all that matters this season is getting back into the Champions League. As of right now, we've put ourselves into a position where that looks very doable, despite our terrible start, and LvG must get credit for it.
Given City's shaky form, we should really be aiming at giving them a proper contest for second. We're not that far behind, and a good run of results leading up until the new year will put us in ago of place for doing just that. Despite our spending, that would make a very decent season for us, given where we came from and our injuries.
I don't understand his philosophy.
I assume part of it involves not getting 10 injuries a month, I'm hoping for that part to start soon.
True. But hopefully not to this extent where we seemingly can't go a week without a first team player being ruled out.
This is inconceivable as it would make Chelsea play some reserve kids at the back to compare which they would never do
Agree with everything here, good post.
He played 3 at the back because he wanted a left footed CB, but the only one we had was Blackett. Blackett isn't good enough to play in a 4 back defence (2CB's) so we played with 3 instead. Fellaini played because Arsenal struggle with the physical battle.
The transition between defence and midfield was poor though. I don't think that was totally van Gaal's fault however.
The transition between defence and midfield was poor though. I don't think that was totally van Gaal's fault however.
That was the biggest problem, and it was our problem in the first few games of the season aswell. Blackett inparticular, who played those first few games, suffers from poor distribution especially when pressed and we generally can't play our way out from the back. Blind's arrival for the QPR game onwards helped with this as he's excellent at taking up positions so the defense have an easy pass, someone like Fellaini doesn't do that so much. We need more composed centre backs.
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Piss off. Blackett, if I remember, was our best defender at that stage while everyone else around him was failing. Yesterday I saw no wrong with Blackett, he cleared his lines as he should while getting pressed hard by an attacking Arsenal. Flipping people need to get real.
Difference between yesterday and the beginning of the season is that we had a midfield that actually played ok in those beginning 20 minutes or so where as at the beginning of the season they seemed to have no clue.
Blackett did well yesterday.
I think one of the changes and improvements I see under LVG is psychological one, I again can see our players putting a fight, even when we are playing bad like most of the game yesterday you can see them fighting and believing in themselves. Under Moyes (although I'm sick and tired of those comparisons too) we would have lost comfortably I think.
Sure we rode our luck amd if Arsenal had put one of their chances in the 1st half who knows what would have happen but as I said heads of our players dont instantly drop when things aren't going our way like last year.
Even against City, with 1-0 and a men down we pushed them in the last 10, 15 minutes and didn't let go.
Sure we rode our luck amd if Arsenal had put one of their chances in the 1st half who knows what would have happen but as I said heads of our players dont instantly drop when things aren't going our way like last year.
Even against City, with 1-0 and a men down we pushed them in the last 10, 15 minutes and didn't let go.
Got news for you.He doesn't have one.
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How do you know? You talk shite.
For me it was a step backwards yesterday, no matter what the final result was really. I can't understand it, just why would he do that. Putting more bodies into defence didn't help us, it only disorganizes the defence even more. I understand that we're struck with injuries and all that shit but he still didn't have to pick the 352 stuff. I wasn't and still am not a fan of that 4141 we've played recently but Jesus, stick to one formation. I know that there's this system, philosophy and bla bla bla talk and that you have to have different variants of play ready to implement during the game but for me there's a huge gap between 352 and any formation with 4 at the back.
Yesterday we've made just plenty of mistakes at the back in the first 30 minutes or so, give any half competent team and we'd have Leicester away result at half time minus our goals. We've created hardly anything, let them run rampant and if it wasn't for DDG being our saviour again, we'd be trully fecked. So many times our defenders had communication problems between themselves and wingbacks, so many times you could see somebody charging at them in the middle and all three would jockey back instead of sending one to attack him, so many times there were gaps created by miscommunication and role confusion between our wing-backs and right/left centre backs that were exploited by Chamberlain and Sanchez.
When RVP finally started to look somewhat decent in recent games because he was able to get the ball at his feet, keep it, pass it and so on, we've isolated him in yet another game. There were errors in attacking paths of our attacking trio which often resulted in either passing the ball nowhere or getting one of them offside. Although both have had a good game, I'm still not convinced by Carrick-Fellaini two man midfield where Fellaini has to play as a half-holding midfielder most of the game.
So many things didn't make sense yesterday. It's not that it's the philosophy or some other shit that won us the game yesterday imo, it was Arsenal's ineptitude and us riding major luck at times. I understand that our tactics were to surrender possession ( noted by Rooney in the post-match interview ) and hit them on a counter but when you surrender possession then you must be sure that you've got solid backline and our backline was anything but solid in the first half. For the first time yesterday, I felt like he's got no clue what to do. Thankfully the scoreline ( which in the end is the most important thing ) defends him, the style or way we've played however, does not.
Yesterday we've made just plenty of mistakes at the back in the first 30 minutes or so, give any half competent team and we'd have Leicester away result at half time minus our goals. We've created hardly anything, let them run rampant and if it wasn't for DDG being our saviour again, we'd be trully fecked. So many times our defenders had communication problems between themselves and wingbacks, so many times you could see somebody charging at them in the middle and all three would jockey back instead of sending one to attack him, so many times there were gaps created by miscommunication and role confusion between our wing-backs and right/left centre backs that were exploited by Chamberlain and Sanchez.
When RVP finally started to look somewhat decent in recent games because he was able to get the ball at his feet, keep it, pass it and so on, we've isolated him in yet another game. There were errors in attacking paths of our attacking trio which often resulted in either passing the ball nowhere or getting one of them offside. Although both have had a good game, I'm still not convinced by Carrick-Fellaini two man midfield where Fellaini has to play as a half-holding midfielder most of the game.
So many things didn't make sense yesterday. It's not that it's the philosophy or some other shit that won us the game yesterday imo, it was Arsenal's ineptitude and us riding major luck at times. I understand that our tactics were to surrender possession ( noted by Rooney in the post-match interview ) and hit them on a counter but when you surrender possession then you must be sure that you've got solid backline and our backline was anything but solid in the first half. For the first time yesterday, I felt like he's got no clue what to do. Thankfully the scoreline ( which in the end is the most important thing ) defends him, the style or way we've played however, does not.
It's a step backwards even though we played shite and won whereas last season we played shite and lost, you fecking people...
While I largely agree that criticism of Blackett goes overboard on here, in comparison to say praise for McNair.
Blackett wasn't our best defender at any stage throughout the match
I thought he played well overall, made some really crucial blockages and interceptions especially in the 83rd minute or so when Cazorla (I think) was snaking through our defence and got a shot away which would've ended up in the goal, there were a few other occasions too - he's a very good physical defender.
My problem with Blackett comes when he's on the ball, he's slow off the mark, doesn't react quick enough and often plays a poor pass out of defence.
These things will improve with more experience though.
See here, it kind of did. At the end of the day the home team started better and for the first 20 min i thought "crap this is appalling" like most here, but lets look at the facts of the game. Outside that opening spell we did really well to plug up the gaps that Asnl usually look to exploit. It wasn't pretty but as soon as we started to get to grips with the game i never felt like Asnl would score. That's testament to the team and the formation we played. The fact that we should have won by 3 goals yesterday sums up that tactically he got it spot on - even if it was unnerving to watch.
Last year...for those last 15 mins....we would have been lucky to see the ball out of our half. The difference this season is that we do actually try to attack and get the goal until the last few minutes. That is a mighty step forward from last year...
If you really want to treat it in the 0-1 way then we've had more points at this point of the season last season. It doesn't fecking mean that we're worse team or something, no, I just feel that the progress we've made in last games has been either stopped or erased for the Arsenal game. Just like it was idiotic for Moyes to play the players out of position 24/7, I feel it's idiotic to switch the formation so often, especially when it's visible that our players are uncomfortable with it.
@OneUnited24
Not sure if he got it 'spot on' if he himself wasn't really happy with the game itself. Yea, we could've won it 3-0 if ADM converted his chance but we could've easily been losing it by 2 or 3 if Arsenal wasn't so shit. That's what worries me. In the last games we've looked somewhat ok defensively ( as in, we didn't shit it everytime somebody came with the ball at us ) given our injuries and so on. Yesterday, it was a time lapse to the start of the season for me. LVG wasn't happy with his defenders yesterday because they've 'let Arsenal create the storm' - it was a referrence to how the ball was distributed. Since 352 relies on centre backs playing the ball from the back then you need to have centre backs who actually can do it and are calm enough to do it. Smalling is shit at ball-playing and McNair and Blackett are bloody 19, with some pressing from Arsenal ( and both Sanchez and Welbeck were constantly pressing them ) it was obvious that they'd simply shit it at some point and revert to hoofing it or putting DDG under pressure with badly played backpasses, all of which resulted in surrendering the possession so often.
That's not definition of 'spot on' to me. I'm not even sure if we can call it 352 to be fair, it was more of a 523 with ADM and one of Rooney/RVP switching from centre to wing most of the time, which didn't really help either.
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Well they better get fecking used to it. It's their problem, not the managers. They're professional footballers and what marks players in the modern era is the ability to adapt.
I, for one, applaud LvGs balls for changing the formation and being tactically aware and for having the confidence in himself and in the players to do that. Something Moyes never had in both incidences, that for one breeds confidence and belief.
For too long we've had this perception that United could play only one way, that if it wasn't 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 we wouldn't be able to cope, that needs to end. For one, we pick up injuries like no other club imaginable and due to circumstances he had to change.
Progress is marked in results, we've won not playing particularly well. On last season, that is a marked improvement and I make no apologies for saying that because Moyes had experienced players at his disposal and he fecked it up, LvG doesn't have that luxury and he has the added burden of a bitch of an injury crisis. We're moving forward, slowly but surely.
I love how some people think tactics are the only important factor in football. If that were the case Rafa Benitez would probably have won a lot more in his career. Van Gaal has brought back belief and fight to a bunch of players who've had none in recent times which they've maintained even in a ludicrous injury crisis.
He's also got no hopers like young, Fellaini, Valencia playing good stuff and Rooney seems to be back to his absolute best which is something I didn't think I'd see at United.
Anyone who thinks van Gaal isn't doing a good job is insane.
Having said that, I agree that I don't think we should play the 352 as the defence look clueless enough already without having to deal with extra confusion. The insisinsistence on having a left footed centre half is odd.
He's also got no hopers like young, Fellaini, Valencia playing good stuff and Rooney seems to be back to his absolute best which is something I didn't think I'd see at United.
Anyone who thinks van Gaal isn't doing a good job is insane.
Having said that, I agree that I don't think we should play the 352 as the defence look clueless enough already without having to deal with extra confusion. The insisinsistence on having a left footed centre half is odd.
It is manager's problem, in the end if they feck up due to playing a system / formation they're shite at, they'll drop points, so will LVG and it's his head that will roll, not theirs. I was a huge fan of 352 at the beginning ( can be checked in my posts history during the tour, etc. etc. ) but after the disastrous start to the season I simply understood that our players are either too thick or simply not used to playing a certain system and therefore I see no point in playing it. We don't play any beautiful yet ineffective football with it, we're not playing ugly yet effective football with it, we're playing tumescent shit with it and it's the first time we've won with that system. Before it was a draw at Burnley and Sunderland and loss to Swans.
I'm not fan of 442 with wingers ( when they're off form ) or the 4411 from last season but it doesn't mean that we have to switch to another extreme that is 352. You can play the 442 diamond or even 433. I agree with you that we're slowly moving forward but yesterday was a huge stop sign that sprang in front of us, atleast that's how I see it.
Incredible how anyone could turn his performance yesterday around to make it look good. He was terrible.
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