All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Q-F: MJJ vs Raees

[crappycraperson]

........................Team MJJ/Nair..................................................................Team Raees..........................................

MJJ's tactics -

Formation:-

A very flexible formation that can resemble a 5-2-3, 5-3-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-6-0 or a 3-4-3 at times depending on the passage of play. The team is designed to play retain possession but has the ability to score on the counter attack as well.

Both sides are very evenly matched so it will come down to smaller margins while I feel my side is slightly stronger than his in midfield and defence which should give me the win. Some other observations:-

1) Playing Daglish as a false nine and Raees having no DM, will allow me to exploit the gap between his midfielders and defenders. Daglish vision coupled with the runs of Charlton, Robson and Giggs will create lots of chances for my side, if his defender does follow daglish then it will allow giggs time and space to cut in and be one on one with the keeper.
2) Hapgood as a defender, hapgood natural position today would have been that of a centre back instead of a fullback. Hence he is going to add little to nothing out on the left flank which means it will be easier to deal with his left flank.
3) My long rang shooting, in hoddle, charlton and robson I have three of the strongest shooters of the ball in the english football history. Given the players I have in midfield and attack, its not an exaggeration to say that I will dominate possession, when not using giggs as an outlet to start attacks I can also pass the ball till an opening shows up in front of his defense and midfield which will be perfectly exploited.

Overview

England won a World Cup by having Moore and Charlton, and Ferdinand is perfect to replicate Moore’s role here. On the flanks, I have Ray Wilson and Alf Sherwood.

Wilson was renowned for his vision, passing ability and surging runs down the left flank.He is going to form a deadly partnership with Ryan Giggs and help me tear teams apart. Interestingly Wilson was never booked for a foul till he was 32 and even that was for dissent. Giving one an idea of his pace and positioning.

On his opposite flank is Alf Sherwood or the king of sliding tackles. Sherwood was blessed with pace and positioning sense.Stanley Matthews described Sherwood as the most difficult opponent he ever played against. Alf Sherwood is the perfect right back to partner hoddle on the right flank.

All of my defenders are known for having excellent positioning and rarely being booked or giving fouls away. Having defenders who are excellent at timing their tactics is a huge plus while initiating quick counters and catching the other side out.

Raisbeck is going to be sitting in front of defence and breaking up the opposition attacks, a role he excelled in.

Both Robson and Charlton are both in their favourite positions, with Robson playing a box to box role while Chalrton is playing as the advanced playmaker.

Hoddle role is the most interesting one here, rather than playing as a winger he is playing in a wide midfielder role ala Beckham at his peak for us. He is going to be deeper than his partner on the opposite flank, and will help me look for goal scoring opportunities with his passing range and long range scoring.

Giggs is playing as a wide forward, and his pace coupled with Charlton, Hoddle, Dalglish and Raisbeck passing range will be crucial on the counter attacks.

Now for the second controversial role of the day, Dalglish who was a deep lying striker is going to be playing as a false nine. Dalglish had very good dribbling skills, passing, a low centre of gravity, good hold up skills, finishing (close- and long-range) and very good vision i.e. all the skills needed to be the perfect false nine. Dalglish who played as an inside right/left earlier in his career is perfect for the role. With Giggs and Charlton bombing forward, his assists from whom rush benefited for so many years will be invaluable.

Rush said:
I just made the runs knowing the ball would come to me.

Paisley said:
Of all the players I have played alongside, managed and coached in more than four decades, he is the most talented

O'leary said:
Also his trick like all great players was he never fell over or got pushed over, always was able to stay on his feet . Such was Dalglish's skill at holding on to the ball that, years later, the former Arsenal and Republic of Ireland defender David O'Leary would describe trying to rob him of possession as "impossible."

"He crouches over the ball, legs spread and elbows poking out," said O'Leary. "Whatever angle you come in from, you're liable to find his backside in your face."

Ferguson said:
Kenny had unbelievable vision and strength. He is a man I shall always respect.
He had great balance and was a good finisher, courageous too. People often forget that the one quality great players need is courage. Kenny is as brave as a lion. He would take a kick from anyone and come back for more.”

Rafa Benitez said:
Dalglish would have made a perfect false nice and thats a facht

Lesser Known Player Profiles

Spoiler: Raisbeck

Liverpool had on show the archetypal traditional centre-half, an all-action player capable of covering huge distances during play both in attack and defence, of breaking up moves and starting his own, of inspiring ten others to achieve more than the sum of their collective parts and of carrying the hopes and expectations of the fans on his own broad shoulders.

Alex Raisbeck was for 11 seasons the crown prince of Anfield, club captain, centre-half and object of wonder for fans across the country.

Today the club website suggests he would today ‘undoubtedly be a pin-up’ along the lines of a Fernando Torres (might need updating, that).

While I accept the point being made, it’s a little like when people say if Shakespeare were alive today he’d be writing for Eastenders. They’re reflecting the fact he was a popular dramatist at the time, but ignoring the huge gulf in class between Shakespeare’s words and those of BBC soap opera scripts – a gulf which time does nothing to narrow.

Torres was a key man for Liverpool, and at his best is among the most dangerous players in world football. The club came to depend on his talents too much, and here the contrast with Raisbeck is stark.

While the natural gifts of a willowy striker who at times seemed to move on air were always an unsteady foundation on which to build a long-term challenge for honours, in Raisbeck Liverpool had a rock.

Strong, tall for the time, quick in thought and deed and utterly fearless, Raisbeck most closely resembles Steven Gerrard at his most impressive, with Gerrard in turn carrying echoes of Graeme Souness. The fact he achieved high enough standards to drag otherwise patchy Liverpool sides to two league titles is a testament to his overwhelming influence as a player and a man.

In every facet of his life Alexander Galloway Raisbeck seemed to embody the kind of values fans love to see in players.

From the type of Kopite whose sole tactical exortation to the side is a primal scream of ‘gerrintodem’ to those of us who prefer the clever pass or artful switch of play to the brutal lunge, Raisbeck by all accounts catered for everyone.

Spoiler: Harry Gregg

The hero of the munich air disaster. Transferred to Manchester United for a world record fee for a goalkeeper. It says it all about the man that 4 months after the disaster he was voted the best goalkeeper at the 1958 World Cup ahead of the legendary Lev Yashin, when helping minnows Northern Ireland reach the quarter finals. Was renowned for his fearless style of goalkeeping.
http://thegoalkeeperco.com/features/harry-gregg-an-inadequate-tribute-to-an-ill-remembered-icon/

Spoiler: Ray Wilson

He had a knack of sliding in, hooking his leg around the ball, the winger would go arse over tit and Wilson would be up and away on the attack.
Wilson was renowned for his vision, passing ability and surging runs down the left flank. Interestingly wilson was never booked for a foul till he was 32 and even that was for dissent.

Spoiler: Sherwood

Alfred Sherwood was a former miner who threw himself into everything. Especially sliding tackles. So much so, the Cardiff City man was known as the 'king of the sliding tackles'. Sir Stanley Matthews, on the other hand, knew him simply as 'the most difficult opponent I ever played against'.

 

[crappycraperson]

Raees' tactics

4-2-3-1

Style of Play

1. Counter-attack, my wing-backs are primarily defensive rather attacking outlets..

2. Mackay and Bremner are shields in front of the back four, right in the area where Dalglsh and Charlton like to operate.

3. Carter has freedom to roam and support Law, he’s a second striker/am in this formation and the conductor of this side, he will help feed Law and bring my wingers into play.

4. If Carter is somehow kept out of the game, he can interchange with Law and keep the opposition guessing, Law will drift out wide and make it 2 v 1 out wide and leave space up front for Carter to exploit.

5. Feed it out wide to destroy my opponent on flanks or play through balls in behind CB/FB and watch my wingers score goals.

My weaknesses:

1. No out and out wing backs, both my full backs are more defensively secure than beasts going forward. But in a British draft where the wingers are all stunning and there isn’t really a stand out attacking full back in the draft.. is this necessary a bad thing? It isn’t like I’m having Zanetti or Cafu to compete against, if it is Armfield/Cohen etc.. my full backs are easily in that league if not better especially in relation to Hapgood and Crompton is more than their match defensively - considered the first top all round defender in the game.

Opponents Strengths

1. World class creativity… in Giggs, Dalglish and Charlton, my opponent has skill and vision in abundance. But whilst individually all these players bring a lot to the table, as a combined force.. it doesn’t hit all the right notes for me. It isn’t a team, it is a collection of skilled individuals. Compare this to my attack of Bale, Law, Meridith, Carter… all in their best positions and the chemistry is off the chart.

2. Quality defence… I can’t fault his defence in all honesty, all I’ll say is that my attack is so good.. I would bet on it to overcome that defence as good as it is. I think most defences would struggle to contain that attack.

3. Midfield strength… lots of big names in midfield, but again I question the chemistry and balance. It is a who’s who in terms of names, but would it work in reality?

My strengths

1. Fort Knox – each one of my defenders is rock solid in their respective positon from a defensive perspective, 3 of them are exceptionally quick to boot and all 4 were said to be quality in the air too. All four are leaders and have been captain of either club or country. Oh and there is Ray Clemence behind them too.

2. Hellish midfield duo.. Mackay and Bremner, that is an all time great Scottish duo… perfect mixture of technique, grit, physical prowess, passing accuracy and tactical awareness.

3. Maestro at number 10… one of the best out and out 10’s in the draft, combined fantastic passing and dribbling ability, creating countless opportunities and defense splitting passes with a ridiculous eye for goal. His goal scoring statistics are sublime and he was considered a true match-winner.

4. Welsh wizardry on the wings… Meridith and Bale, in their best positions

5. The King – need I say anymore.

Key Issues

Are my full backs, centre backs really?

A key debate which has been brought up in all my prior matches. Tbh I haven’t dealt with it satisfactorily thus far purely due to the need to conduct further research. I present the following arguments… firstly in relation to Hapgood which is a straightforward case and the more difficult issue of Crompton as a RCB/RB hybrid. Feel free to disagree, if I have time to respond I will if not.. I apologise!

Hapgood played in the wm system as what is best described as a LB/LCB hybrid, the role known as full back. He was considered one of the pioneers of this role. If you look at his build alone 5ft 9, very agile and slight.. very Ashley Colesque in terms of everything really, it would be laughable to presume this player was a pure CB, i.e. A Tony Adams type of player but to rely on this argument would be weak.

My first argument is that in the wm you did not have a wing-back playing alongside you protecting your flank. You had 2 defensive midfielders/centre mids (half backs) in front of you, there was no wide midfielders, apart from the wingers who were played in a front three i.e. Bastin. Taking the example of Bastin, if he played on the right wing (he didn’t but lets just say he did) he’d be marked by a Hapgood.. if they were to face each other, a straightforward full back v winger battle. Therefore you had to have exceptional pace and positioning to be able to cover both the flank and help out centrally. At no stage was Hapgood expected to defend centrally exclusively, if anything his primary duty was to protect the flanks where he was majestic… there are eyewitness accounts of him marking a peak age Matthews out of the game in a ww2 game, although aside from that their careers didn’t really overlap.

My second argument is that looking at Hapgoods attributes, he was exceptionally quick, tactically brilliant (he’d sheperd players out wide and nick the ball of them) great at anticipating, technically outstanding and a solid passer… for his height, he was a strong header too. A very complete player, there is no doubt his skill set was suited to a full back position, he would not be found wanting in a left back position.. his technique is often cited as one of his strongest hallmarks, so he’d hardly be found wanting in possession.

As to Crompton, he played in a back two… So to say he played as a full back in the modern sense of the word is a downright lie. He didn’t – pure and simple. That said, I think we can all agree to play in a back two and be reknowned as the greatest defender of your era as well as be known as one of the greatest footballers of your generation is quite a feat.. so we are not dealing with an ordinary footballer, he is one of the all time greats in the formative years of the game.

So we know he’s brilliant in terms of reputation but what is playing in a back two like? Imagine in the modern day you had to pick two defenders to go in a back two… would you pick Vidic and Terry? Or Thuram and Maldini? Think of all the space you have to cover in a back two (remember it was 2-3-5.. and the three were midfielders) and you’re up against 5 attackers. You’d have to be an exceptionally talented defender to make the odds go in your favour. You’d also have to be comfortable not just centrally, but protect the flanks too… if you lack pace.. you’d get murdered in a back two and if you’re not strong against tricky wingers, you’d get torn apart. However in a back two.. you can’t be Hapgood and expect to defend against a Drogba… you need to be physically robust, have the physique to defend in central areas and have brilliant positioning to cover so much space between two people. You’d need to be able to deal with a variety of threats and have the attributes to deal with them. Bob Crompton was the leading defender in that role.

By all accounts, he was a muscular presence, but fantastically quick… his favourite tactic was letting people take him on for pace and execute the shoulder barge and win the ball. He was also considered to be technically outstanding for his position for the time he played in and was comfortable on the ball. So whilst he wasn’t a pure RB by any stretch of the imagination, he was what I’d argue a more refined gifted quicker version of Branislav Ivanovic. I don’t think that is a ridiculous assertion to make.. a powerful CB/RCB who is comfortable out wide and capable of going forwards due to his pace /power. I think he’d relish muscling Giggs out of the game and was a master tactician.. so no doubt he’d show Giggs inside, more often than not.

MJJ's fullbacks v my flankers..

His full backs v my wingers… Sherwood and Wilson are top fullbacks, make no bones about that. I will not attempt to find weaknesses in them, all I will say is that it is nigh on impossible to ensure wingers of Bales and Meridith’s quality can be kept quiet throughout games – why? Because they’re very complete. They can cross on a level only Beckham can touch and in terms of dribbling they’re in the realms especially in Meridith’s case with Best or Bale’s case, Barnes/Giggs. In terms of influencing games, Bale surpasses a Giggs in my opinion despite lacking the same level of flair and technique.. he makes up for it in power and greater desire to make an impact on a game. He also possesses a more predatory movement off the ball and fantastic finishing ability.

Put simply, show my wingers outside.. they’ll run round the outside and whip in all manner of world class crosses. Show them inside and they’ll score goals. Defend high against them and if they cut inside with runs, they’ll give CBs a nightmare.. these are two very influential match-winning welsh wizards.

MJJ's attack..

His attack… on paper you’d be fearful of a side which contains Charlton, Dalglish and Giggs.. but in reality would it work? I don’t see the balance in his attack. Giggs aside it lacks pace and balance..it doesn’t scream goals and penetration to me and I fancy my defence with that cracking midield duo ahead of it to keep a clean sheet. I think the likes of Dalglish and Charlton would hate coming up against Mackay and Bremner… they’d also break injury prone Robbo. Mackay would just need to put in one shin crunching tackle on Robbo and its clear who’d come up trumps. Dalglish and Charlton don’t work in the same side for me.

 

[crappycraperson]

@MJJ
@Raees
@manikandan nair

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ
@Raees
@manikandan nair

Can we postpone this for today please?

 

[crappycraperson]

Poll will be added tomorrow

 

[crappycraperson]

@MJJ
@Raees

 

[MJJ]

He had a reputation for robust tackling combined with a use of the shoulder charge, which would be penalized as rough play in more recent times.

On crompton, given the fact that it is widely acknowledged that his shoulder charge(favourite move of defending) is going to be a foul nowadays, I dont see him having a lot of success versus giggs. Him fouling giggs, will lead to countless chances for my side.

Furthermore central defenders are much less likely to deal with players running directly at them, which should enhance the chances of giggs beating him time and time again.

 

[MJJ]

Also, I disagree that bale has surpassed giggs in the matter of influence, you only need to watch him playing for madrid this year to know that he has been very poor and easily contained. He is up against a fullback that mathews(far far better dribbler) described as his toughest opponent so we all know who is winning that battle. Take Bale pace advantage away and he is easier to contain.

On the other side meredith will get no support from crompton(also true for bale) while giggs will help out defensively as well so both of his flanks will be negated to a certain extent.

 

[crappycraperson]

You have tried to explain it but that front 6 does not work for me. Very few players have shown themselves to be versatile enough to play the false 9 role. And even then you do need someone who can provide some kind of target upfront. Only player capable of doing that here is Chalrton.

Hoddle's role in the team looks terribly redundant, I have no idea what exactly he will be doing. Team would be much better with a wing forward in there instead of Hoddle and there is no escaping that. In any case even though you have overloaded the MF area, Raees' midfield is capable of competing there.

 

[MJJ]

You have tried to explain it but that front 6 does not work for me. Very few players have shown themselves to be versatile enough to play the false 9 role. And even then you do need someone who can provide some kind of target upfront. Only player capable of doing that here is Chalrton.

Hoddle's role in the team looks terribly redundant, I have no idea what exactly he will be doing. Team would be much better with a wing forward in there instead of Hoddle and there is no escaping that. In any case even though you have overloaded the MF area, Raees' midfield is capable of competing there.

Giggs and Charlton provide that target(running through). Daglish was a deep lying forward all his career, that role isnt widely different from the role of a false nine, if you look at all the attributes needed to play the role he had them all except for being extremely quick. Was one of the most intelligent players ever and will have the tactical nous to play the role.

Hoddle is playing a role ala beckham in our 99 team, he can move in when chalrton/robson attack or dribble down the right.

Having Raisbeck also means the role of carter is going to be restricted to a large extent and daglish dropping deep is going to cause all sorts of problem, particularly with crompton being ineffective in this era as already mentioned.

Hapgood was also a right footed centre back not a fullback so while our midfield will be more or less even(as I acknowledged in my OP), my defense is better.

 

[crappycraperson]

Giggs and Charlton provide that target(running through). Daglish was a deep lying forward all his career, that role isnt widely different from the role of a false nine, if you look at all the attributes needed to play the role he had them all except for being extremely quick. Was one of the most intelligent players ever and will have the tactical nous to play the role.

Hoddle is playing a role ala beckham in our 99 team, he can move in when chalrton/robson attack or dribble down the right.

Having Raisbeck also means the role of carter is going to be restricted to a large extent and daglish dropping deep is going to cause all sorts of problem, particularly with crompton being ineffective in this era as already mentioned.

Hapgood was also a right footed centre back not a fullback so while our midfield will be more or less even(as I acknowledged in my OP), my defense is better.

Giggs was more of hug the line winger than a wing forward you need to compliment your false 9.

Beckham was possibly our best or second best player in 99, not sure you can just have any CM play that role.

In any case, I have given my reasons for the vote, upto Raees to argue it further.

 

[MJJ]

Giggs was more of hug the line winger than a wing forward you need to compliment your false 9.

Beckham was possibly our best or second best player in 99, not sure you can just have any CM play that role.

In any case, I have given my reasons for the vote, upto Raees to argue it further.

Its a draft so its more about whether someone can play the role or not. I think giggs is perfectly capable of playing a wing forward role and I think in his first few seasons he certainly played like this(correct me if I am wrong).

Disagree with the beckham point as well, while hoddle might not have his work rate he makes up for it with additional flair. The role wasnt a highly specialized one that only beckham can play, its just a wide midfielder tucking in at times.

If you are going to focus on that, why not take into account both his full/centre backs playing at a time when the only form of defence was man-marking and the concept of positional based defending wasnt this advanced so space should open up with hoddle's unconventional role and giggs drifting from the flank inwards.

 

[crappycraperson]

Big part of Beckham playing out wide was his crossing. The fact he did not need to beat a man to create a chance for the forwards. So yes, you can't just ask any CM to play that role. He still qualifies as a winger rather than a CM for that reason.

 

[MJJ]

Big part of Beckham playing out wide was his crossing. The fact he did not need to beat a man to create a chance for the forwards. So yes, you can't just ask any CM to play that role. He still qualifies as a winger rather than a CM for that reason.

A) Hoddle was just as good a long range passer as beckham and wasnt a far inferior crosser.
B) He is actually a much better dribbler than beckham as well which makes up for his inferior passing since he will get into better positions.

Not to mention charlton-robson-raisbeck is just as good a midfield as his if not better.

 

[Joga Bonito]

You have tried to explain it but that front 6 does not work for me. Very few players have shown themselves to be versatile enough to play the false 9 role. And even then you do need someone who can provide some kind of target upfront. Only player capable of doing that here is Chalrton.

Hoddle's role in the team looks terribly redundant, I have no idea what exactly he will be doing. Team would be much better with a wing forward in there instead of Hoddle and there is no escaping that. In any case even though you have overloaded the MF area, Raees' midfield is capable of competing there.

I for one can see it working well tbh. Dalglish does have the attributes to succeed in that role for me. He's got great movement, intelligent link up play, deceptive hold up play and a very good goalscorer as well. He actually averaged approx 1 in 2 for Celtic and early on in his Liverpool career. The only thing he lacked was pace but movement and link up play are more critical for the false 9 role than pace which isnt a pre requisite for a false 9.

Rafa Benitez said:
Dalglish would have made a perfect false nice and thats a facht

He also could have done with a wing forward cutting in to provide some presence in the box like you've aptly stated but then he's got United and England's record scorer Charlton and one of the best goalscoring box to boxs in this draft with Robson. Dalglish was an excellent goalscorer as well. That more than compensates for the lack of an inside forward imo. The only thing MJJ's team lacked was a pacey winger providing width and an extra dimension which was more important for his team than the cutting edge of an inside forward and I reckon he's got that now.

Beckham was possibly our best or second best player in 99, not sure you can just have any CM play that role.

Tbf I would rate Hoddle as a more technical, gifted and a better dribbling but less mobile and industrious version of Beckham in that role. He also has Sherwood as a defensive full back which makes up for the lack of Hoddle's industry.

Mjj should get the Pep/LVG award for innovative use of players in this draft

Nothing bad to say about Raees team as well. Fantastic core, great midfield and a terrifyingly pacy attack. Only thing I don't really like is Carter instead of Ball in that midfield. Granted Carter is a fantastic player and the forwards would thrive on his service but a midfield trio of Ball-Bremner-Mackay would have been more suited in this game against Mjj's great midfield trio whilst freeing up Bremner and Mackay more. Playing Carter has its own benefits but this match is crying out for Ball imo.

Really close match as usual.

 

[MJJ]

Am I the only one that thinks law is going to be really isolated? Both his fullbacks arent going to be contributing in attack.

Sherwood is easily good enough to take care of Bale while the wilson with a little help from giggs can neutralize meredith. Carter has raisbeck patrolling his area and that leaves law up against rio and charlton. I will always have a man free in defense as well.

The same cant be said for raees since my team's long range shooting is unmatched, all charlton,robson,hoddle need is a glimpse of goal to let loose. WIth dalglish's vision and giggs dribbling skills and pace(up against crompton no less) I will create chances galore.

 

[MJJ]

And @Raees why do you think a midfield three of charlton, robson and raisbeck wont work?

 

[MJJ]

Compare our defences for a second.

Wilson was a better left fullback(the role they both are playing) than hapgood.
Sherwood was a better right fullback than crompton(who is going to be penalized a lot for his shoulder barge style of play)
Ferdinand is miles better tham campbell while there isnt a lot between charlton and mcniell, with charlton probably edging it.

 

[Raees]

Wilaon is not better than hapgood. Hapgood is said to have come up trumps against Matthews in the 40s and where have you got.. hes a right footed centre back from.

McNeill is the leading cb in a legendary European cup winning side. Jack was a good support cb.

Campbell always led with Rio supporting him - anyone who has seen them pair up can vouch for that.

Crompton was a master tactician - sure he can adapt to the modern game as he had pace, incredible physique and a brilliant football brain.

 

[Raees]

Hoddle out right, Dalglish as your only striker - your side lacks penetration. Mine has proper firepower and pace. All of my front 4 is direct and quick. . And im on the counter.

 

[Raees]

Law is so complete.. I think Rio would struggle against him. Anyone would. . He's an all time great in global terms.

 

[MJJ]

Wilaon is not better than hapgood. Hapgood is said to have come up trumps against Matthews in the 40s and where have you got.. hes a right footed centre back from.

McNeill is the leading cb in a legendary European cup winning side. Jack was a good support cb.

Campbell always led with Rio supporting him - anyone who has seen them pair up can vouch for that.

Crompton was a master tactician - sure he can adapt to the modern game as he had pace, incredible physique and a brilliant football brain.

I got that from the position he played and the right footed bit from the pes forums. He played in a W-M not as a fullback in the modern formation as you already acknowledged. So as a left fullback wilson is better.

I dont think anyone is going to vouch that campbell is better than rio as a defender. Rio was a better stopper and a covering defender.

Can he?(Crompton). His favourite move is the shoulder barge, its a lot to assume that he will change his style of defense. Will he be as successful without that tactic? From what I read its the only way he dealt with pacy players, letting them get ahead and then barging from back. What happens when giggs run away? Red card?

 

[MJJ]

Hoddle out right, Dalglish as your only striker - your side lacks penetration. Mine has proper firepower and pace. All of my front 4 is direct and quick. . And im on the counter.

Hoddle long range shooting, giggs being giggs, charlton being charlton, daglish who was a very good striker= lack of penetration?

Lack of penetration is attacking with two wingers with no support from your fullbacks and trying to beat raisbeck(who was famous for never losing a duel) in the middle. Law is up against two CBs here as well, one of them a worldcup winner.

 

[MJJ]

05 Dec 1964 Manchester United v Leeds United W 0-1 League Division One
27 Mar 1965 Leeds United v Manchester United D 0-0 FA Cup
31 Mar 1965 Leeds United v Manchester United W 1-0 FA Cup
17 Apr 1965 Leeds United v Manchester United L 0-1 League Division One
12 Jan 1966 Leeds United v Manchester United D 1-1 League Division One
19 May 1966 Manchester United v Leeds United D 1-1 League Division One
27 Aug 1966 Leeds United v Manchester United W 3-1 League Division One
31 Dec 1966 Manchester United v Leeds United D 0-0 League Division One
23 Aug 1967 Manchester United v Leeds United L 1-0 League Division One
08 Nov 1967 Leeds United v Manchester United W 1-0 League Division One
02 Nov 1968 Manchester United v Leeds United D 0-0 League Division One
11 Jan 1969 Leeds United v Manchester United W 2-1 League Division One
06 Sep 1969 Leeds United v Manchester United D 2-2 League Division One
26 Jan 1970 Manchester United v Leeds United D 2-2 League Division One
14 Mar 1970 Leeds United v Manchester United D 0-0 FA Cup
23 Mar 1970 Leeds United v Manchester United D 0-0 FA Cup
26 Mar 1970 Leeds United v Manchester United W 1-0 FA Cup

Leeds record against united in law's and charlton's heydays. As you can see we rarely scored against them so am not sure why raees thinks law alone will dominate my two centrebacks when he never did.

 

[Raees]

The leeds side was a unit. Reaney kept Best quiet.. Bremner kept Charlton quiet and Norman Hunter was the lead CB in that side.

 

[MJJ]

The leeds side was a unit. Reaney kept Best quiet.. Bremner kept Charlton quiet and Norman Hunter was the lead CB in that side. Law is the one United player who is said to have always been up for the fight out of the holy trinity

The same norman hunter who was kept out of the england side by charlton?

 

[Raees]

The same norman hunter who was kept out of the england side by charlton?

Charlton was a better support defender. He and Moore clicked and it worked well. Also Hurst was picked ahead of Greaves. . Ramsey made quirky selections but it doesn't mean Charlton was considered more influential than Hunter. The latter is the reknowned leeds legend. Hunter bremner Giles

 

[MJJ]

Charlton was a better support defender. He and Moore clicked and it worked well.

Going by that logic, wont you agree that ferdinand and charlton is going to work very well? Since ferdinand is similar to moore as well.

 

[Raees]

Going by that logic, wont you agree that ferdinand and charlton is going to work very well? Since ferdinand is similar to moore as well.

When did I say it wouldn't? I even explicitly said in my op I'm a fan of your defence. Its the rest of your team I find unconvincing.

 

[MJJ]

When did I say it wouldn't? I even explicitly said in my op I'm a fan of your defence. Its the rest of your team I find unconvincing.

So if charlton and ferdinand works as well as charlton-moore then its not presumptuous to assume they will be formidable enough to restrict law like the famous leeds side did

 

[Raees]

So if charlton and ferdinand works as well as charlton-moore then its not presumptuous to assume they will be formidable enough to restrict law like the famous leeds side did

England v Scotland 1967.. Law ran them absolutely ragged. That was moore and charlton. Year after wc win at their peak at wembley scoring opening goal in a famous 3-2 victory

 

[Annahnomoss]

So if charlton and ferdinand works as well as charlton-moore then its not presumptuous to assume they will be formidable enough to restrict law like the famous leeds side did

That extension doesn't make sense at all though. Ferdinand and Charlton won't be playing with the partnership of Moore-Charlton. Nor will it be as complementary as Moore-Charlton neither. You have a great defense in their own right, but there is no need to compare its possible abilities with Moore-Charlton.

Moore and Ferdinand were ball playing defenders but ability wise two ball playing central defenders can differ hugely. Ferdinand had brilliant pace for example and didn't need someone to complement that side of him - Moore's 1 vs 1 ability was on a different level from Ferdinand though.

So Moore and Vidic would be a great partnership because Rio and Vidic were great and complementary.

 

[MJJ]

That extension doesn't make sense at all though. Ferdinand and Charlton won't be playing with the partnership of Moore-Charlton. Nor will it be as complementary as Moore-Charlton neither. You have a great defense in their own right, but there is no need to compare its possible abilities with Moore-Charlton.

Moore and Ferdinand were ball playing defenders but ability wise two ball playing central defenders can differ hugely. Ferdinand had brilliant pace for example and didn't need someone to complement that side of him - Moore's 1 vs 1 ability was on a different level from Ferdinand though.

So Moore and Vidic would be a great partnership because Rio and Vidic were great and complementary.

It was a jokey comment, hence the wink.

England v Scotland 1967.. Law ran them absolutely ragged. That was moore and charlton. Year after wc win at their peak at wembley scoring opening goal in a famous 3-2 victory

Scotland were undoubtedly helped by an injury incurred by England's centre-half Jack Charlton as he tackled Lennox early in the first half. Although he stayed on the park for the full 90 minutes playing as a forward, the big Leeds player could barely run. He did, however, manage to score England's opener.

Hmmmm.

 

[Raees]

It was a jokey comment, hence the wink.


Scotland were undoubtedly helped by an injury incurred by England's centre-half Jack Charlton as he tackled Lennox early in the first half. Although he stayed on the park for the full 90 minutes playing as a forward, the big Leeds player could barely run. He did, however, manage to score England's opener.

Hmmmm.

Law also scored in the 1966 game?

 

[MJJ]

Law also scored in the 1966 game?

He was a world class talent so am not surprised he did scored, I just dont think its as clear cut that he will bully my defenders as you think. Bale and Meredith wont have a lot of effect on the game so he will be pretty isolated to a large extent. As the leeds games showed where they isolated him by taking out best and charlton.

On the otherhand, I have giggs against crompton who had a tendency for letting pacier plays run across and then using a shoulder barge i.e. a freekick, hoddle playing deeper and cutting inside against a man only used to man marking, daglish dropping deep and charlton bombing forward. Not to mention the threat all three have from long range.

 

[MJJ]

Reminder of giggs sheer pace and class since he always gets underrated in these drafts.

 

[Raees]

He was a world class talent so am not surprised he did scored, I just dont think its as clear cut that he will bully my defenders as you think. Bale and Meredith wont have a lot of effect on the game so he will be pretty isolated to a large extent. As the leeds games showed where they isolated him by taking out best and charlton.

On the otherhand, I have giggs against crompton who had a tendency for letting pacier plays run across and then using a shoulder barge i.e. a freekick, hoddle playing deeper and cutting inside against a man only used to man marking, daglish dropping deep and charlton bombing forward. Not to mention the threat all three have from long range.

So Bale and Meridith are not world class talents?

 

[MJJ]

So Bale and Meridith are not world class talents?

Bale is a level below giggs, is playing on the left and will get no help from his fullback while playing against one of the best defensive left backs in the draft.

Meredith I will probably put at the same level as giggs, although the game was faster when giggs played with the defences smarter but again he is getting no help from his fullback and giggs and wilson combine will negate his influence.

 

[MJJ]

Also, have voted for myself. Will appreciate it if you do the same.

 

[MJJ]

This seems a bit dead :/