We have definitely lost our soul in a way

RedStarUnited

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Reading through these transfer tweets and I see very low support for our youngsters. 2 bad years has shown us for what we probably always were. No one wants to wait for players to develop anymore, If Di Maria is being sold then you would think Adnan or Depay even would be getting supported to replace him..Nope - The caf muppets want Reus.
 
Maybe we should use an Ouija board and bring it back!
 
Football has moved this way a long, long time ago. You need to invest or you're left behind (trophies, sponsors etc). It's part sport, mostly business.
 
has to be a balance. think van Gaal has given youth a boost. McNair and Blackett...

Sure we will see Peraira this season. van Gaal kept Wilson and not just send him on loan.

think if we have some good players with potential, they will get noticed and be given a chance.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Reading through these transfer tweets and I see very low support for our youngsters. 2 bad years has shown us for what we probably always were. No one wants to wait for players to develop anymore, If Di Maria is being sold then you would think Adnan or Depay even would be getting supported to replace him..Nope - The caf muppets want Reus.
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We haven't lost our soul - football in the sugar daddy era has changed to where romantic nostalgia of bringing along youth prospects has been replaced by the need to compete with other big/wealthy clubs. The sooner people realize this the better.
 
Dunno I'd say there's room for more than 2 wingers in the squad myself.

Assume you were equally critical of signing ADM and Falcao last summer when we had Januzai and Wilson.
 
We need to stabilize the ship again. When we do that, I'm sure the club will look more at youth again. We just finished 4th after a season in 7th. How much stick would LVG get for trying out youth and us dropping down to 5th next season? A feck ton.
 
The attitude irritates my old man, match goer since the 60's, I usually dismiss him on the issue but reading some of the Cafe posters I'm inclined to agree with OP at times.
Perhaps it is the way of the modern era but it still feels hideously wrong to me.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Reading through these transfer tweets and I see very low support for our youngsters. 2 bad years has shown us for what we probably always were. No one wants to wait for players to develop anymore, If Di Maria is being sold then you would think Adnan or Depay even would be getting supported to replace him..Nope - The caf muppets want Reus.
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I don't know how you can say that after last season where LvG tried out more youngsters (and many in important games) than Fergie did for years. I don't see how you can say that about Depay either, when he hasn't even played a game for United yet. The sad truth is that United thrived on success and now most of the younger supporters demand it return instantly. Add to that the money in football also dictates that to stay at the top and to earn the most money, United too must stay right at the very pinnacle of football.

Of course United deserve to be up there, but after losing Sir Alex, any new manager is in an almost impossible position where they have to almost guarantee success instantly. With that being the case, and given United's poor squad and imbalance, the only real way to do that is to buy it. LvG gave the youth players chances and I fully believe he will continue to do so (mainly domestic cups this year), but the harsh truth is they don't have as much time to prove their worth and have to step up quickly, patience and giving them time is not a luxury United can afford anymore. It's also fair to say that unfortunately, as much as we may love many of them, they quite simply might not be good enough.
 
dxadel said:
I understand, But you have to remember that we also tried that route in the latter stages of Fergie's career and I hate to say it but we became a mediocre club, which is why our rivals were able to exploit Moyes' misfortunes.

I mean don't get me wrong I'd love to win the United way, it just hasn't happened for us in more than 2 decades in terms of getting quality players from our academy - most of them were great tools under Fergie and somewhat average without him - when you also include the fact that the quality of players from Britain and Ireland has regressed over the years, we simply have no choice.

I think spending our own money keeps us a level above teams with sugar daddies and dictators(city,Chelsea and Madrid), and teams that have called dibs on every rising star from the 17 teams in their leagues(Bayern).....heck even Barcelona have resigned to signing players to get back to the top again - as La Masia hasn't produced quality players in a while ( or is producing at a really slow pace).

Infact, I still think United is the only top club still trying to keep its tradition - we just told a solid GK back up to feck off for not playing with the reserves......the reserves!!
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Debated this yesterday.
 
I thought this will be about british core and that we don't have many british players anymore. This would make sense but your statement doesn't.

LVG gave opportunity to many youngsters last season even if it was his job on the line. McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Perreira (he didn't played but he was always in first squad), Shaw, Wilson and even James in first game, they are all 20 or younger and all got their opportunity.

Memphis is 21 years old and he will be probably first option for LW, Januzaj is 20 years old and he will be second option for RW, Shaw is 20 and he will be first option for LB, Wilson is 19 and he will be second or third option for ST position.
McNair and Perreira will probably get his chance too. Yeah we give youth a chance if you ask me.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Reading through these transfer tweets and I see very low support for our youngsters. 2 bad years has shown us for what we probably always were. No one wants to wait for players to develop anymore, If Di Maria is being sold then you would think Adnan or Depay even would be getting supported to replace him..Nope - The caf muppets want Reus.
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Muppets gonna muppet. We've always have these gloom and doom drama queens around here, not just recently.
 
datura said:
They aren't mutually exclusive.
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They are in this case in that the pressure to compete with other wealthy clubs, of which there are far more these days, prevents us from being able to slowly introduce youth players who actually have a chance to remain career first teamers. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that era is over.
 
I feel out of step with the general feeling on here. Most of the time I'd rather give other current squad players a chance rather than spend on incoming transfers.

I thought after Pogba we would try hard to avoid another similar situation arising but it doesn't seem so.

Using Januzaj as an example. He did ok in the first half of 2013/4. Then we bought Mata so he barely played. Our scoring rate stayed the same. Then we bought Di Maria. Januzaj barely played. Our scoring rate almost exactly the same as when Januzaj had been a starter the previous season. Neither Mata nor Di Maria have had the sort of impact you would hope for given their respective transfer fees and wages. If you take a close look at the stats, we score at the same rate when they are missing, as when they are on the pitch.
 
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Jerch said:
I thought this will be about british core and that we don't have many british players anymore. This would make sense but your statement doesn't.

LVG gave opportunity to many youngsters last season even if it was his job on the line. McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Perreira (he didn't played but he was always in first squad), Shaw, Wilson and even James in first game, they are all 20 or younger and all got their opportunity.

Memphis is 21 years old and he will be probably first option for LW, Januzaj is 20 years old and he will be second option for RW, Shaw is 20 and he will be first option for LB, Wilson is 19 and he will be second or third option for ST position.
McNair and Perreira will probably get his chance too. Yeah we give youth a chance if you ask me.
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Probably moreso due to our injury crisis and lack of quality first teamers than just a desire to blood new youth players. Now that we have reloaded with another round of new buys, it's unlikely McNair, Blackett, Adnan and Pereira will see much action (imo). Some don't like hearing this but its just the new reality of competition in the league and Europe.
 
This soul notion is too simplistic.

A young Scholes/Giggs would certainly be in the team and would play regularly even as things stand now. The only issue is the level of play you need to achieve as a youngster is incredibly high, basically you need to be a young Ronaldo/Rooney to get a game as an attacker in this team.

Ultimately if you are good enough you get to play. Our academy prospects are just not attaining those levels.
 
Raoul said:
They are in this case in that the pressure to compete with other wealthy clubs, of which there are far more these days, prevents us from being able to slowly introduce youth players who actually have a chance to remain career first teamers. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that era is over.
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I disagree completely. We might as well ditch the academy completely according to some which is ludicrous. If we can get top talent through the academy then they will get a chance, there's more then enough games to give them match time, if they merit it.
 
Jerch said:
I thought this will be about british core and that we don't have many british players anymore. This would make sense but your statement doesn't.

LVG gave opportunity to many youngsters last season even if it was his job on the line. McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Perreira (he didn't played but he was always in first squad), Shaw, Wilson and even James in first game, they are all 20 or younger and all got their opportunity.

Memphis is 21 years old and he will be probably first option for LW, Januzaj is 20 years old and he will be second option for RW, Shaw is 20 and he will be first option for LB, Wilson is 19 and he will be second or third option for ST position.
McNair and Perreira will probably get his chance too. Yeah we give youth a chance if you ask me.
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McNair and Blackett played most of their games out of necessity due to horrendous injury issues rather than actually giving them a chance in the Fergie mould in fairness, Januzaj had large periods of being frozen out entirely, Wilson was the only young player LvG threw in for a few selective apperances when other more established players were available to him.

Anyway, if we go ahead and start the season as you say in the final paragraph with Januzaj as 2nd option on the right, Wilson 2/3rd option for striker etc etc the subject wouldn't be an issue, it's when muppets want to buy additional superstars that would push youth like Januzaj and Wilson down to 4th/5th choice fringe members of the squad that you start to be concerned with the attitude.
 
datura said:
I disagree completely. We might as well ditch the academy completely according to some which is ludicrous. If we can get top talent on the academy then they will get a chance, there's more then enough games to give them match time, if they merit it.
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When is the last time we had an academy/youth player come through and remain with the first team for more than 7 years ? It just doesn't happen anymore. They either spend years in the reserves with the odd first team cameo or get sold off. Our reserves are far more effective at populating other Prem clubs than our own.
 
Raoul said:
Probably moreso due to our injury crisis and lack of quality first teamers than just a desire to blood new youth players. Now that we have reloaded with another round of new buys, it's unlikely McNair, Blackett, Adnan and Pereira will see much action (imo). Some don't like hearing this but its just the new reality of competition in the league and Europe.
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Yes of course injuries were part of the reason but TBF even under SAF many youngsters got the opportunity because of the injuries. You can't go into a season counting on 19-20 years old boy to be your first team player and you couldn't do in the past. For example Rafael broke into the first team because of Neville injuries and Fabio didn't even if he was more rated at the begining because Evra never got injuried. Important is when youngster get his chance he must delivered but many didn't last season.

Next season i think many young players will get a lot of time. Depay, Januzaj, Shaw and Wilson who are all very young will definitely play a lot, other need to show on training that they are good enough.
 
Raoul said:
When is the last time we had an academy/youth player come through and remain with the first team for more than 7 years ? It just doesn't happen anymore. They either spend years in the reserves with the odd first team cameo or get sold off. Our reserves are far more effective at populating other Prem clubs than our own.
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This.

We remain spoilt by the Giggs/Scholes/Beckham era.
 
Jerch said:
Yes of course injuries were part of the reason but TBF even under SAF many youngsters got the opportunity because of the injuries. You can't go into a season counting on 19-20 years old boy to be your first team player and you couldn't do in the past. For example Rafael broke into the first team because of Neville injuries and Fabio didn't even if he was more rated at the begining because Evra never got injuried. Important is when youngster get his chance he must delivered but many didn't last season.

Next season i think many young players will get a lot of time. Depay, Januzaj, Shaw and Wilson who are all very young will definitely play a lot, other need to show on training that they are good enough.
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Excepting Memphis and Shaw who have nothing to do with our youth system, what makes you think Januzaj and Wilson will get any more time than last year ? Januzaj hasn't shown any hint of having evolved from his handful of good performances two years ago and Wilson, who I rate, may not see much time with Rooney and now Hernandez ahead of him.
 
Whiteside1985 said:
This.

We remain spoilt by the Giggs/Scholes/Beckham era.
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Yep. The class of 92 definitely skewed our expectations that such a feat could be repeated. It was a one off that will never happen again, especially with the changing dynamics and pressure to compete in today's sugar daddy era.
 
Raoul said:
When is the last time we had an academy/youth player come through and remain with the first team for more than 7 years ? It just doesn't happen anymore. They either spend years in the reserves with the odd first team cameo or get sold off. Our reserves are far more effective at populating other Prem clubs than our own.
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It's because we are competing on a different level now. We need true world class players, we can't get away with a team full of Wes Brown, O'Shea, Phil Neville, Welbeck etc. Nothing against those players or what they achieved at the club, but it's true. We got lucky with the class of 92 and people can't understand why United aren't churning players like that out year after year.

Our supporters and even our management and Chief exec Ed Woodward demand we have the highest quality available in every position. Like I said before, it's hard for many to accept, but 99% of our youth players simply aren't good enough and if they don't make it after a few appearances we don't have the time to wait for them to come good.
 
Time and heart are inversely proportional. The more it passes, the more they grow apart.
 
Raoul said:
When is the last time we had an academy/youth player come through and remain with the first team for more than 7 years ? It just doesn't happen anymore. They either spend years in the reserves with the odd first team cameo or get sold off. Our reserves are far more effective at populating other Prem clubs than our own.
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Like datura said, it's mostly just because they aren't good enough. We were extremely lucky to have Giggs, Scholes, Beckham and Neville all come through at the same time - that was a one off, and we can't expect it to happen again. The best players we've had come through in recent years HAVE been afforded a lot of game time (Welbeck, Cleverley, Evans) and while they're decent players, they're not top quality. Pogba could have been the one, but things didn't work out with him as we all know
 
Forget the attitude of the club/Manager I definitely really sad at how some of our fans are behaving, I have no issues with buying top players but I do find the way some of our academy boys are talked about a bit disappointing. There seems to be happiness going through the United fans about getting rid of Evans which is a bit Chelsea/City like.
 
Raoul said:
When is the last time we had an academy/youth player come through and remain with the first team for more than 7 years ? It just doesn't happen anymore. They either spend years in the reserves with the odd first team cameo or get sold off. Our reserves are far more effective at populating other Prem clubs than our own.
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Why the random 7 years?!! Evans, welbeck, cleverley were all regular first teamers, brown and o'shea before them. It's very unlikely we'll ever get a class of 92 but there's huge advantages of bringing a local/academy player through, and most top clubs have homegrown players in the starting lineup.
 
langster said:
It's because we are competing on a different level now. We need true world class players, we can't get away with a team full of Wes Brown, O'Shea, Phil Neville, Welbeck etc. Nothing against those players or what they achieved at the club, but it's true. We got lucky with the class of 92 and people can't understand why United aren't churning players like that out year after year.

Our supporters and even our management and Chief exec Ed Woodward demand we have the highest quality available in every position. Like I said before, it's hard for many to accept, but 99% of our youth players simply aren't good enough and if they don't make it after a few appearances we don't have the time to wait for them to come good.
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Agreed, especially with the last bit. I'd love to see a fantastic player come through and show more quality than the top players we are buying from the outside, but unfortunately, the only one who had such a chance was Pogba, and he's gone.
 
BennyBlanco said:
McNair and Blackett played most of their games out of necessity due to horrendous injury issues rather than actually giving them a chance in the Fergie mould in fairness, Januzaj had large periods of being frozen out entirely, Wilson was the only young player LvG threw in for a few selective apperances when other more established players were available to him.

Anyway, if we go ahead and start the season as you say in the final paragraph with Januzaj as 2nd option on the right, Wilson 2/3rd option for striker etc etc the subject wouldn't be an issue, it's when muppets want to buy additional superstars that would push youth like Januzaj and Wilson down to 4th/5th choice fringe members of the squad that you start to be concerned with the attitude.
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Bolded part i already answered to Raoul. I don't agree with you that Januzaj was frozen out, he got his chances but didn't really do anything to keep himself in the first team.

I said in one thread already. We must not buy just to buy players, if there is a player available who will make our team better then yes go for him but if such a player is not available give the opportunity to players we have.
If Di Maria gos we are a little short on LW so i agree we should buy a new player but Januzaj will get as many chances if Di Maria stays or if he goes and we just sign replacament for Di Maria. The same is with wilson, he will be backup for ST position if we keep Hernandez or if we sell Hernandez and bring replacament into the club. The situation is the same for him.

Next season we competing in all competitions + we have UCL qualifications games so we will play a lot of games and younger players will get their opportunity.
 
krazyrobus said:
This soul notion is too simplistic.

A young Scholes/Giggs would certainly be in the team and would play regularly even as things stand now. The only issue is the level of play you need to achieve as a youngster is incredibly high, basically you need to be a young Ronaldo/Rooney to get a game as an attacker in this team.

Ultimately if you are good enough you get to play. Our academy prospects are just not attaining those levels.
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Giggs would. A young Scholes wouldn't. It took Scholes a long time to become a top player. His chances of making it at the current United would be about as good as Pereira's.
 
The thing about youngsters is - they do not have the time but have to be ready and deliver. Van Gaal gives them more chances than the normal coaches do. But - at a club like United - or prior to this Bayern - you just do not have the time to give them thousands chances. And if they need thousand chances they might not be of the quality the club needs them.

Just to show you - Müller in 2009/10 was the guy with the most goals and assists at the end of the season. He got his chance and took it with both hands. If any of your young ones would have the same quality van Gaal would have given them a similar ride with chances.

Just to show you the difference - Alaba in 2009/10 was very young. He had two great matches - but then badly failed in the third. After that van Gaal did not play him anymore and he was loaned to Hoffenheim. After the loan it was Heynckes who first gave him match time as his first substitute in various positions until in March he switched Lahm back from left to right and gave Alaba the spot as left fullback. Alaba had necessary quality - but just was not ready in 2009/10 with 17.

We have a similar discussions with the youngsters at Bayern right now.
 
datura said:
Why the random 7 years?!! Evans, welbeck, cleverley were all regular first teamers, brown and o'shea before them. It's very unlikely we'll ever get a class of 92 but there's huge advantages of bringing a local/academy player through, and most top clubs have homegrown players in the starting lineup.
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7 years was enough time to suggest they had enough quality to have a career at United. Brown and O'Shea were late 90s pre-sugar daddy youth players who were the last of the old guard of youth from the Fergie era. Welbeck, Cleverley, and Evans, despite their service, are not of a high enough quality to warrant making a difference here. I respect each of them for having come through the system, but the fact that they are all gone, including Evans impending move to Everton, suggests they didn't add any special value that couldn't have otherwise been brought in from the outside.
 
Now is definitely not the time to be freaked out about youth players coming through or losing our soul etc. The main issue is gettin back on a level playin field with the rest of our rivals - home & abroad, and then we can deal with that issue in good time.

Perreira is in the tour squad - so that's a good start i might add. He'll get game time next season no doubt. Pearson's goin on a 6mth loan to Barnsley by all accounts - another good start. I really like the look of that lad..
 
kundalini said:
Giggs would. A young Scholes wouldn't. It took Scholes a long time to become a top player. His chances of making it at the current United would be about as good as Pereira's.
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I think LvG will focus on Perreira, Adnan, and Wilson as this year's youth projects in the first team. Hopefully they can get some minutes at the right time to keep their development moving.
 
Hate this blanket term of giving youngsters a chance, like that makes up for lack of top level talent you need to play for an elite club like United.
Let's turn down Bastian ( easier to spell ) and play Pereira there. Ramos? We have McNair instead!
What's the worst that can happen? Fall behind to our multi billion pound neighbours? Lose sponsorship deals and make it time times harder to buy top level talent than it would be now?
At least we gave them a chance.
 
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