Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Enigma_87/MJJ vs Gio

[Gio]

WHO IS PICKING UP ZICO?

Ruggeri? Nobody?

Zico was the king. He was much better than everyone else. When there is a king, the rest fight to be close to the king. So it was Zico who should lead. It was Machiavellian, but I was the prince and Zico the king.

Look at the volume of goals he scores from in front of the back four. With the exquisite service he'll receive from Bozsik and Iniesta, he's going to get into those deadly positions. Ruggeri was clearly better known for his strength in the air rather than his ability on the deck. A man of Zico's endless talents will expose him on the floor.

 

[Enigma_87]

Firstly, I'm not sure where this 'Barca type of formation' comes from. Secondly, Bozsik is playing right-half, the same position he played for the Magyars. He excelled in a 4-2-4. He'll be like a pig in shit with the options he has to connect with.

The Barca reference was in terms of Iniesta defensive contribution in the present role. Bozsik and Souness won't have the same Xavi/Busquets game so that Iniesta can match his Barca role.

For one in this position as a CM behind Zico I'm not sure if it works well with Bozsik and Souness as holding.

I'm not sure sacrificing your left wing where you will be outnumbered to tuck Iniesta in this role is a good idea and that would make a better balance.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't see how Souness could pick on Cryuff any better or worse than Effenberg could do Zico? Both Gerson/Effenberg and Souness/Bozsik duos are quite similar in capabilities to each other. Iniesta and Giggs offer different dynamics. Iniesta through the middle may overload in favour of Gio and Giggs vs Andrade should be stalemate based on Anto's opinion.

 

[Gio]

The Barca reference was in terms of Iniesta defensive contribution in the present role. Bozsik and Souness won't have the same Xavi/Busquets game so that Iniesta can match his Barca role.

Not really sure of the relevance there. Is the assumption that Iniesta cannot produce a top performance unless Xavi and Busquets are on the park? I think he's shown time and time again for both Spain and now Enrique's Barca that he can give his best in various situations.

 

[Enigma_87]

WHO IS PICKING UP ZICO?

Ruggeri? Nobody?

Ruggeri is known to have excellent positioning and man marking skills. He's one of the best stoppers in the game. He organized Argentina's defence on the road to 2 WC finals winning one of them. He was the main main at the back and makes a perfect partnership with Baresi.

Ruggeri's positioning shouldn't be underestimated as well his tackling. There's a reason why he was the main defender after Passarella and Argentina were so tight at the back.

Look at the 2 Argentina squads on the road to the WC finals and apart from Maradona his name is standing out as his performances.

Baresi - Ruggeri compliment very well at the back.

Effenberg is also in midfield who tends to be forgotten, he is one of football hard man and a standout figure for Bayern in one of their most impressive squads in 99-01.

 

[Gio]

I don't see how Souness could pick on Cryuff any better or worse than Effenberg could do Zico? Both Gerson/Effenberg and Souness/Bozsik duos are quite similar in capabilities to each other. Iniesta and Giggs offer different dynamics. Iniesta through the middle may overload in favour of Gio and Giggs vs Andrade should be stalemate based on Anto's opinion.

Well the OP suggests Zico is the job of the back four. And with Baresi no doubt covering the space that Greaves looks to hit, that leaves Ruggeri to tackle Zico.
Souness is a class above Effenberg though, that's pretty clear. Not that he's a passenger by any means, but given the rarefied nature of the other midfielders on the park, he is the weakest of the bunch (relatively speaking).

 

[MJJ]

Facchetti was a sprinter in his youth: he'll easily outstrip either Figo or Amoros. He's probably quicker than Carlos too for that matter. Anyway, it's a moot argument. If Amoros has the ball, we shift across. That's how football works. Iniesta slides along from his withdrawn inside-left position, Zico sits into the hole to stop the easy square ball, Finney drops in and stops anything across the park.


Explosive? Look at those legs, those are the thighs of an explosive footballer. He was squat, muscular, dynamic and quick off the mark. That's just his physical qualities, never mind his considerable defensive talents. He's a great fit for the job in hand here.

If Iniesta goes out wide, that will leave you weak through the middle. It will be souness, bozsik against cruyff, effenberg and gerson and there is only one winner when that happens.

However good facchetti was, he cant handle figo and amoros alone. He would need iniesta to help him a lot and that will leave you weak through the middle.

Andrade made his name as a box to box, not a right back. All of his defensive capabilities are more suited in the middle than out wide, defending in the middle is different to defending out-wide and giggs is going to love playing against him.

And Henry was much much faster than chumpitaz, no matter the thighs of the latter

 

[Gio]

Look at the 2 Argentina squads on the road to the WC finals and apart from Maradona his name is standing out as his performances.

Baresi - Ruggeri compliment very well at the back.

It's a nice partnership I agree. But Ruggeri's standout quality is his aerial ability. But he'll be waiting for a header that never comes here. All the while Iniesta, Bozsik, Zico and Greaves zip it around his feet.

Effenberg is also in midfield who tends to be forgotten, he is one of football hard man and a standout figure for Bayern in one of their most impressive squads in 99-01.

I remember Effenberg well at the time. Twice he was outclassed by both of Barry Ferguson (v Rangers home and away) and then by Gaizka Mendieta (v Valencia in the group stage). Again he's not a liability, but he's up against some absolute legends here.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't see how Souness could pick on Cryuff any better or worse than Effenberg could do Zico? Both Gerson/Effenberg and Souness/Bozsik duos are quite similar in capabilities to each other. Iniesta and Giggs offer different dynamics. Iniesta through the middle may overload in favour of Gio and Giggs vs Andrade should be stalemate based on Anto's opinion.

I'm not sure how well will Andrade work against Giggs. Also Andrade's main position is listed everywhere as central. He would do a job at the position Gio's playing him, but from what I see he won't be at his best.

Here's a piece from the Guardian:

Andrade played mostly at half-back, from where he dominated games, busy in both halves of the pitch. A more recent equivalent might have been Zinedine Zidane, a World Cup winner with France in 1998, Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht of Stanford University has suggested, writing about Andrade in In Praise of Athletic Beauty in 2006: "All eyewitnesses were enchanted with the effortless elegance in his movements." He was muscular and powerful. There was a "sensational athletic energy" about his performances, which "awakened strong waves of an almost erotic desire". He was famed for never celebrating a goal, and for frequently missing training sessions.

A tour of nine European countries by Nacional, Andrade's Uruguayan club side, in 1925 attracted a total of more than 800,000 spectators. Andrade played only half of that tour. He went to a doctor in Brussels and was told he had syphilis. He is said to have disappeared to Paris on hearing the news. He did not return to Montevideo until two months later. On his arrival, a reporter said he had lost weight and had "an air of depression" about him. Andrade said he was feeling "somewhat ill" and would undergo a course of treatment.

Remarkably, he played on. He had lost some of his pace, but none of his skill. When Uruguay's entertainers reached the Olympic final in Amsterdam in 1928, more than 250,000 applied for tickets – 10 times the stadium's capacity. Uruguay beat Argentina 2-1, but in the semi-final against Italy, Andrade had run into a goalpost and, some said, the injury was so serious he was later blinded in one eye. Others said his deteriorating health in later life, and his blindness, was caused by syphilis.

Based on that I really can't see how Andrade will work against Giggs.

Anto only commented on his overral quality but in this formation and against a pacy world class winger I'm not sure he's the right fit.

It's a nice partnership I agree. But Ruggeri's standout quality is his aerial ability. But he'll be waiting for a header that never comes here. All the while Iniesta, Bozsik, Zico and Greaves zip it around his feet.


I remember Effenberg well at the time. Twice he was outclassed by both of Barry Ferguson (v Rangers home and away) and then by Gaizka Mendieta (v Valencia in the group stage). Again he's not a liability, but he's up against some absolute legends here.

I'm quite sure all players have bad games.

Effenberg was voted Most Valuable player in CL in 2001 the year they won it.

A little quote from good ol Wiki

After his departure, club fans voted him one of the eleven greatest Bayern players of all time

I'm sure Balu can say something about it

Surely Effenberg was not the best in his position but no denying he was world class and he's up to par to anyone in that midfield.

Some footage of the great Franco against the very top strikers in the game:


Love one of the comments below in the video:

Baresi is a better playmaker then most playmakers today

 

[Gio]

Andrade made his name as a box to box, not a right back. All of his defensive capabilities are more suited in the middle than out wide, defending in the middle is different to defending out-wide and giggs is going to love playing against him.

Come on - you're making out you know than Anto here. Clearly he's a good fit for the role, should cancel out Giggs and more than hold is own defensively.

And Henry was much much faster than chumpitaz, no matter the thighs of the latter

Henry was faster than a lot of defenders. It never meant he was guaranteed to score against them. Especially when their ability to read a game was as exalted as each of my back four.

 

[MJJ]

Come on - you're making out you know than Anto here. Clearly he's a good fit for the role, should cancel out Giggs and more than hold is own defensively.


Henry was faster than a lot of defenders. It never meant he was guaranteed to score against them. Especially when their ability to read a game was as exalted as each of my back four.

I know anto had a habit of exaggerating his own players, so do you tbf. Almost every source out there on him has his best position as his box to box mid, and a very good one. He isnt considered among the GOATs right backs, which you need to cancel out peak giggs.

Agree with that but your defenders have your handful; andrade with giggs, facchetti with both figo and iniesta. Another important thing that I think have been ignored so far is henry's tendency to drift to the left. Henry,Figo and Amoros on one flank against facchetti

 

[Enigma_87]

Come on - you're making out you know than Anto here. Clearly he's a good fit for the role, should cancel out Giggs and more than hold is own defensively.

I don't think you can use anto's words here as he described his overall game not as a right back going forward as you depict him.

Also the above quote is from the Guardian, I'm sure they also have sources who are experts in the game.

Henry was faster than a lot of defenders. It never meant he was guaranteed to score against them. Especially when their ability to read a game was as exalted as each of my back four.

Cruyff was as well. That's a deadly combination.

Well his peak was trully special. One of the deadliest strikers:

..................................Thierry Henry 2003/04:..Cristiano Ronaldo 2011/12:..Lionel Messi 2011/12:
Matches Played:........................51.............................55............................57
Goals:...................................39.............................61............................69
Minutes Played:........................4452..........................5099..........................5175
Minutes/Goals %:......................114.153......................83.590........................75
League Goals:..........................30.............................46............................50
Cup Goals:..............................3..............................3..............................3
Supercup Goals:........................1..............................2..............................2
UEFA Champions League Goals:......5..............................10.............................14
Shots:...................................175............................369...........................315
Shots on Goal:..........................106...........................148...........................153
Shots/Shots On Goal %:...............0.605.........................0.401.........................0.485
Shots/Game %:.........................3.431.........................6.709.........................5.526
Shots on Goal/Game %:...............2.078.........................2.690.........................2.684
Goals/Game %:.........................0.764.........................1.109.........................1.210
Goals/Shots %:.........................0.222.........................0.165.........................0.219
Goals/Shots on Goal %:...............0.367..........................0.412.........................0.450

He's easily comparable with the best in current era and look at that conversion rate. He won't need that many chances.


^^ here's a full highlights of that game against Italy when he was a bit off his peak but still Cannavaro and Nesta could only foul him most of the time.

 

[Gio]

I know anto had a habit of exaggerating his own players, so do you tbf. Almost every source out there on him has his best position as his box to box mid, and a very good one. He isnt considered among the GOATs right backs, which you need to cancel out peak giggs.

That's because the position of right-back as we consider it today was not 'invented' until the 1950s. That said, Andrade was an innovator: one of the first players to master both defensive and attacking phases of the game. That is absolutely critical in a modern full-back: great on and off the ball. And we know that - the evidence and testimonies are compelling. He shut down his flank time and time again. And at the highest level - at the business end of the World Cup and at the World Cup's predecessor, the Olympics. And he was pivotal to Uruguay's success in those tournaments.

Of course it comes back to the notion of an all-time draft. Is there any point if we assume that old players cannot hack the modern era because there were different set-ups in place back in the day? Or do we analyse it properly and consider the strong evidence that we can call upon?

We know Andrade played as the right-half in Uruguay's 2-3-5, depicted below:

Now that looks awfully similar to a modern day 4-3-3 and his role is much the same as then. He's up against a traditional winger (you don't see them nowadays either). That's what he was always up against in his day. Every team played with them and it was the job of the wide-halves to deal with them. He's done it several times over the course of his career and at the business end of major international tournaments.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's because the position of right-back as we consider it today was not 'invented' until the 1950s. That said, Andrade was an innovator: one of the first players to master both defensive and attacking phases of the game. That is absolutely critical in a modern full-back: great on and off the ball. And we know that - the evidence and testimonies are compelling. He shut down his flank time and time again. And at the highest level - at the business end of the World Cup and at World Cup's predecessor, the Olympics. And he was pivotal to Uruguay's success in those tournaments.

Of course it comes back to the notion of an all-time draft. Is there any point if we assume that old players cannot hack the modern era because there were different set-ups in place back in the day? Or do we analyse it properly and consider the strong evidence that we can call upon?

We know Andrade played as the right-half in Uruguay's 2-3-5, depicted below:

Now that looks awfully similar to a modern day 4-3-3 and his role is much the same as then. He's up against a traditional winger (you don't see them nowadays either). That's what he was always up against in his day. Every team played with them and it was the job of the wide-halves to deal with them. He's done it several times over the course of his career and at the business end of major international tournaments.

Here are some more insight on Andrade:

As an eyewitness, the legendary German international Richard Hofmann described Andrade, who came from the poorest class in his country and privately was considered a very restless customer: “Uruguay then was the best team in the world. Their star was Andrade. He was a football artist who could simply do anything with the ball. He was a tall guy with elastic movements, who always preferred the direct, elegant game without physical contact and was always ahead with his thoughts by several moves. Andrade was a noticeably fair player. He never reverted to the theatrical interludes of his team-mates, who pinched or rolled on the pitch after fouls in order to achieve an advantage with the referees. Even during the match Andrade always beamed friendly smiles”.

A Dutch journalist enthused after Uruguay’s Olympic victory: “Andrade was such a great player and his colleagues were such aces that you felt sorry to leave the stadium.” On the road to the Olympic gold medal, Andrade suffered a bad injury which later turned out to be far-reaching. In the semi-final match against Italy Andrade crashed into the goalpost during a defensive action and sustained a major eye injury.

In 1930, the Uruguayan became the undisputed hero of the first FIFA World Cup™ tournament in which he scored one goal in four matches and was elected to the All-Star team as right half-back. And all that despite him being older and less fit than when enjoying his two Olympic triumphs. At that time, the piano tuner, born on October 1, 1901, had already played with Penarol Montevideo, Missiones, Reformes, Beljavista and Nacional Montevideo and worked as a civil servant. He had gained three South American titles (1922, 1923, 1926), and won four national championships with Nacional. Andrade played until he was 36 years old and earned 43 caps (33 of those A internationals). After a contract with Atalanta AFA Buenos Aires (1936) in Argentina, the ball virtuoso made guest appearances at Bella Vista and Montevideo Wanderers FC (1937).

I've found a lot of people describing his game that is nothing like a full back in a modern day 4-3-3 as you claim.

Besides he has a fascinating and interesting story, but after that illness he had he was not the same player physically.

All sources claim that he was not that quick and didn't rely on physical contact. That are guys that were journos or some that actually played against him.

Besides most list him as left or right half back. Even Anto in his references which is a position that is more relative to DM rather than modern day RB.

Your right flank has also Finney who can't contribute defensively or to help him out and apart from winger was played as second striker or a forward.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Y
Also I don't think Souness is one of the greatest man markers, it's not his game.

I agree with that. But as I understand it Souness isn't tasked with a classic marking job here: He is tasked with a) holding and b) keeping close tabs on Cruyff in the hole: If Cruyff roams far and wide, he'll have to be picked up by someone else – which gives you an extra string to play on, granted, but it doesn't mean he'll drag Souness all over the shop.

That's how I take it, anyway - could be reading it wrong, of course.

For the sake of argument, let's say Souness does stay on Cruyff like a cheap kilt – the main question would be if this is critical for Gio in a defensive sense: It obviously means that Souness won't be able to do much beyond trying to keep up with Cruyff, but what does it entail for your attackers?

Cruyff is considered the biggest central threat – and Souness will combat this threat, to some degree or other: If he can do that without upsetting the balance of the team, then I don't see a huge issue here: The fact that he isn't an ideal man marker isn't all that relevant – it's not an advantage for you to have someone mark Cruyff, unless you clearly capitalize on him not being in the hole (but dragging Souness out wide), and the question is how you do that?

I'm not saying you can't – just asking the question. Effenberg pushing up into the space vacated by Souness is one possibility – but this doesn't seem like a critical problem for Gio: If you're on the ball, and he's in balance, Effenberg won't be able to move about unchecked: The defensively sound enough Bozsik won't let him do that, for one thing. Your other central midfielder is very unlikely to be doing much pushing up.

 

[Enigma_87]

I agree with that. But as I understand it Souness isn't tasked with a classic marking job here: He is tasked with a) holding and b) keeping close tabs on Cruyff in the hole: If Cruyff roams far and wide, he'll have to be picked up by someone else – which gives you an extra string to play on, granted, but it doesn't mean he'll drag Souness all over the shop.

That's how I take it, anyway - could be reading it wrong, of course.

Well from what I read I thought it was a man marking job on Cruyff, hence keeping close tabs on him. I could be wrong of course.

For the sake of argument, let's say Souness does stay on Cruyff like a cheap kilt – the main question would be if this is critical for Gio in a defensive sense: It obviously means that Souness won't be able to do much beyond trying to keep up with Cruyff, but what does it entail for your attackers?

I don't think Souness can man mark Cruyff. That's not his game. Or keep him quiet. Souness is a great player but Cruyff is one of the best, surely he'll have an advantage here on one on one. Cruyff will get eventually the better of him like he did on many occasions. He'll drag him around and being more agile and explosive he has the team mates behind him both Effenberg and Gerson to pass into space. When in possession, Gio already put it that Iniesta will go wide. Effenberg can push up of course, but we also have quite mobile wingers that can ask for the ball just to create space. If Cruyff is in possession and beats his marker he'll create advantage and this is what he does best.

I'm not sure if Souness can do a marking job here at all, knowing both players.

Cruyff is considered the biggest central threat – and Souness will combat this threat, to some degree or other: If he can do that without upsetting the balance of the team, then I don't see a huge issue here: The fact that he isn't an ideal man marker isn't all that relevant – it's not an advantage for you to have someone mark Cruyff, unless you clearly capitalize on him not being in the hole (but dragging Souness out wide), and the question is how you do that?

I'm not saying you can't – just asking the question. Effenberg pushing up into the space vacated by Souness is one possibility – but this doesn't seem like a critical problem for Gio: If you're on the ball, and he's in balance, Effenberg won't be able to move about unchecked: The defensively sound enough Bozsik won't let him do that, for one thing. Your other central midfielder is very unlikely to be doing much pushing up.

Both Gerson and Effenberg can shoot from distance if they find space. Bozsik is reknown to have limited pace. Iniesta will have his hands full with Amoros pushing up. I don't think Zico can provide cover and drag back it's not his game.

My idea behind Cruyff dragging him all over the place is because he does that to receive the ball, after he's in possession he can beat his marker and create advantage. He just needs to find some space hence he'll pull him out of position. If Souness is chasing him all over the pitch I can see Cruyff beating him one on one most of the time.

Besides, Gerson doesn't need to do all that push up to do this:

 

[Gio]

All sources claim that he was not that quick and didn't rely on physical contact. That are guys that were journos or some that actually played against him.

Besides most list him as left or right half back. Even Anto in his references which is a position that is more relative to DM rather than modern day RB.

Your right flank has also Finney who can't contribute defensively or to help him out and apart from winger was played as second striker or a forward.

Sorry this is mostly bollocks. Firstly, why can Finney not contribute defensively when Figo's up and down the flank like the Duracell Bunny (against a far better player no less)? Secondly, it is clear that Andrade can play a DM or a RB role. Anto himself said he could play either a DM or RB role. He played for Uruguay as the right half-back whose job was to stop the opposition winger and, given his skills, kickstart a lot of the play. What is compellingly clear is that he operated in the area between the right holding midfielder, the right centre-half and the right-back. What is obvious is that he shone in that area and had the skillset to perform each of those roles to a high standard.

Even wiki cites two sources which describe him as "dynamic, fast and highly technical". Whether he was still as fast after he suffered his eye injury at 27, it's hard to say. But we do know that he won a World Cup after that. And not only did he win that World Cup in 1930 but he did so at such a high level that France Football named him the 10th greatest player in the history of the World Cup.

France Football's World Cup Top-100 1930-1990
Before the 1994 World Cup, France Football published a special supplement
named "Les 100 Héros de la Coupe du Monde" (The 100 World Cup Heroes).

It included a ranking of top 100 World Cup Players from 1930 to 1990; only
players from the final phases (not the qualifying stages) were considered
and ranked, based exclusively on their performances at World Cup level.

The supplement includes a note in which France-Football states that some of
the undisputed all-time greats like Puskas, Di Stéfano, Platini or Yashin, are
not on their list because they didn´t succeed at World Cup level. Here is
the complete list.

1 Edson Arantes do Nascimento "PELÉ" (Bra)
2 Diego MARADONA (Arg)
3 Franz BECKENBAUER (Ger)
4 Just FONTAINE (Fra)
5 Gerd MÜLLER (Ger)
6 Manoel Francisco dos Santos "GARRINCHA" (Bra)
7 Bobby MOORE (Eng)
8 Juan SCHIAFFINO (Uru)
9 Fritz WALTER (Ger)
10 José Leandro ANDRADE (Uru)

Rest at:
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/ff-wc100.html

 

[Gio]

I agree with that. But as I understand it Souness isn't tasked with a classic marking job here: He is tasked with a) holding and b) keeping close tabs on Cruyff in the hole: If Cruyff roams far and wide, he'll have to be picked up by someone else – which gives you an extra string to play on, granted, but it doesn't mean he'll drag Souness all over the shop.

That is the case. The magnificent bastard Souness would relish a challenge of that nature. But he won't needlessly abandon his station and follow Cruyff all around the park.

 

[Enigma_87]

Sorry this is mostly bollocks. Firstly, why can Finney not contribute defensively when Figo's up and down the flank like the Duracell Bunny (against a far better player no less)? Secondly, it is clear that Andrade can play a DM or a RB role. Anto himself said he could play either a DM or RB role. He played for Uruguay as the right half-back whose job was to stop the opposition winger and, given his skills, kickstart a lot of the play. What is compellingly clear is that he operated in the area between the right holding midfielder, the right centre-half and the right-back. What is obvious is that he shone in that area and had the skillset to perform each of those roles to a high standard.

I'm not sure how defensively sound is Finney. Running up and down the flank is one thing participating in midfield off the ball is another. In my research and little footage of him there's nothing to suggest that he'll contribute the same way defensively as Figo.

All sources above that are respectable put Andrade as best at DM role. Look at the description as well. His best qualities are like a midfielder. The right half back is more of a midfielder position than to full back position.

I'm not sure on what basis playing in 2-3-5 formation translates to being used in 4 man modern backline. He played on several positions for Uruguay, the bolded one is simply not true as he didn't have a definite position from what I see, he could play in more advanced midfield role, center and wide, but by no means that's his natural position.

He might have the skillset but would you rather put Neeskens at right back or in the middle - he also started as a right back?

What is obvious is that he had issues with health he had issues with a disease and many sources claim he lost a step in the middle of his 20's.

Even wiki cites two sources which describe him as "dynamic, fast and highly technical". Whether he was still as fast after he suffered his eye injury at 27/28, it's hard to say. But we do know that he won a World Cup after that. And not only did he win that World Cup in 1930 but he did so at such a high level that France Football named him the 10th greatest player in the history of the World Cup.

Which are the sources that describe him fast after the syphilis? They just describe him as an overall player and when are we looking at him to be exactly at his peak, because if you go with his latter years then surely he's not in his optimal physical condition?

 

[diarm]

Am I the only person who can't see Gio's team?

Edit: Scratch that. It's working again.

 

[Moby]

The magnificent bastard Souness would relish a challenge of that nature.

Well there was the intercontinental cup game where Zico tore him to shreds alongside average players and he's against Johan here. I doubt he can single handedly shut him down here and I think Cruyff will clearly have a lot of influence on the game from that position.

 

[Stobzilla]

I can see Enigma working for the first two thirds of the pitch but it falls away after that, Cruyff IS the type of glue that could make the 3 around him work better together than they have any right too but I got peppered for suggesting that Henry could lead a line in the way he is being asked to here as recent as the last draft. Him and Giggs would be in each others space quite a bit and Figo's crossing doesn't have a great target here. With that said it is still a mighty even game and one I'll come back to vote on later.

 

[Snow]

I have an unexplained dislike of Effenberg and I don't really rate him in this draft. I'm surprised that he's here and in such an important position.

 

[BBRBB]

I'm a little bugged by @Gio 's asymetrical lineup. As I understand the plan is to overload the right side to create space for Fachetti on the left, but with no dedicated left winger he will be double marked more often than not. Will Greaves play a lot down the wing and open the center for Zico and Finney? Or Iniesta operate as a true winger?

Also who will cover the left flank when @Enigma_87 /@MJJ attack in numbers?

 

[Enigma_87]

I think the midfield battle will be about equal, some may argue here and there but I think the players we both have are around the same class.

If we break it down I think we have advantage in attack and defence.

Gio has advantage on the LB, but we have the best defender on the pitch in Baresi. Ruggeri/Chumpitaz - debatable. RB IMO we have a clear advantage in world class full back in his best position.

on either flank we have Camacho/Giggs and Figo/Amoros - both perfectly balanced. Gio has Facchetti and possibly filling in Iniesta and Andrade, who he would claim that playing in a wing back 2-3-5 formation would translate to being just as good as playing in a full back position with a winger in front, which I just can't see.

Then we have Henry/Greaves - both great goalscorers but I think Henry has better chance against Gio's defence and in the past has proved to cope pretty well with Gio's best CB - Nesta.

I just don't see the balance in Gio's team in the roles of Iniesta and Andrade. They look shoehorned into the formation just to keep its lines.

 

[Fergus' son]

Went for @Gio.

It's close but I like what he's done with his team, utilising Fachetti to the extent he has is big plus point.

 

[Gio]

Well there was the intercontinental cup game where Zico tore him to shreds alongside average players and he's against Johan here. I doubt he can single handedly shut him down here and I think Cruyff will clearly have a lot of influence on the game from that position.

There are also the numerous European ties he dominated against some midfield greats on the way to 3 European Cup titles. And he bossed Holland in 1978, belatedly called up by a mental manager, as part of Scotland's ill-fated campaign.

 

[Enigma_87]

I can see Enigma working for the first two thirds of the pitch but it falls away after that, Cruyff IS the type of glue that could make the 3 around him work better together than they have any right too but I got peppered for suggesting that Henry could lead a line in the way he is being asked to here as recent as the last draft. Him and Giggs would be in each others space quite a bit and Figo's crossing doesn't have a great target here. With that said it is still a mighty even game and one I'll come back to vote on later.

Our formation is pretty close to what Cruyff game is matching best. I think in this formation Henry will flourish. Cruyff also needs wide forwards in exactly Giggs and Figo to bring into play and there are no better than them in those areas. Figo doesn't need always to cross, he can cut in as he has done it many times. Henry is as good goalscorer as any in the draft and can take his chances especially in this game. I think Cruyff will be the main man here and he's the one to create advantage in numbers when he possesses the ball or with his movement.

I have an unexplained dislike of Effenberg and I don't really rate him in this draft. I'm surprised that he's here and in such an important position.

I think Effenberg will be fine especially in this game where he's not hard pressed all the time. Zico/Bozsik etc are not into pressing game so he should have time on the ball.

He's not one of the likable chaps for fans outside Bayern, but he was a leader on the pitch and a main man in a great Bayern side.

I saw that he was picked in 6th or 7th round in the last all time draft

 

[Gio]

I think the midfield battle will be about equal, some may argue here and there but I think the players we both have are around the same class.

If we break it down I think we have advantage in attack and defence.

Gio has advantage on the LB, but we have the best defender on the pitch in Baresi. Ruggeri/Chumpitaz - debatable. RB IMO we have a clear advantage in world class full back in his best position.

Nah, our defence is clearly better and the only player you've got who gets in here is Franco. Facchetti obviously better than Camacho, Baresi and Nesta as the two centre-halves (Chumpitaz close behind, Ruggeri nowhere relatively speaking). As for Amoros/Andrade, France Football, that French magazine, places the Uruguayan Andrade as the 10th greatest World Cup player of all time. And the Frenchman Amoros, who had a fine tourney in 1986, doesn't even make the otp 100.

I just don't see the balance in Gio's team in the roles of Iniesta and Andrade. They look shoehorned into the formation just to keep its lines.

Shoe-horned! Iniesta is playing the same role he has for Barcelona for a decade. And it's similar to the role he has played for Spain.

 

[Gio]

I have an unexplained dislike of Effenberg and I don't really rate him in this draft. I'm surprised that he's here and in such an important position.

I wouldn't be as harsh as that, but to me it's clear he is the weakest of the midfielders on show and has probably the hardest job in keeping tabs on Zico in the hole.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nah, our defence is clearly better and the only player you've got who gets in here is Franco. Facchetti obviously better than Camacho, Baresi and Nesta as the two centre-halves (Chumpitaz close behind, Ruggeri nowhere relatively speaking). As for Amoros/Andrade, France Football, that French magazine, places the Uruguayan Andrade as the 10th greatest World Cup player of all time. And the Frenchman Amoros, who had a fine tourney in 1986, doesn't even make the otp 100.

I just don't see that. I don't think you rate Ruggeri as you should or overrate Chumpitaz.

As for the bolded, Andrade is not natural full back especially in a 4-3-3 formation. I don't think you can use that accolade when he played in 2-3-5. If we put Neeskens at RB should we consider him that he's the best RB or as good as in midfield?

Shoe-horned! Iniesta is playing the same role he has for Barcelona for a decade. And it's similar to the role he has played for Spain.

Well couple of posts above you said that he won't play in the same way or midfield as he did at Barca, now he's playing the same role? I don't think your CM pair is similar to Barca at all...

 

[Enigma_87]

I wouldn't be as harsh as that, but to me it's clear he is the weakest of the midfielders on show and has probably the hardest job in keeping tabs on Zico in the hole.

Let's just say that the gulf of quality between Cryuff and Souness is bigger than Effenberg and Zico.

Cruyff is the best player on the pitch and I can't see Souness stopping him.

And besides, I'm not sure I got it when was Andrade's peak? Will you use the 1930 one? Cause if it is like that I'm positive he won't work in this formation as a full back in a 4 men backline.

I'm not sure there's enough info that the whole right flank will work for you in the combination of Finney and Andrade. Obviously great players if we go by the book, but they played in formations that are nowhere near the one that you have put.

All in all I can see 3 wide players - Facchetti mostly on his own on the flank and Finney/Andrade forming the right side when they are used to play in formation a lot different to the one presented.

 

[Gio]

I'm a little bugged by @Gio 's asymetrical lineup. As I understand the plan is to overload the right side to create space for Fachetti on the left, but with no dedicated left winger he will be double marked more often than not. Will Greaves play a lot down the wing and open the center for Zico and Finney? Or Iniesta operate as a true winger?

Also who will cover the left flank when @Enigma_87 /@MJJ attack in numbers?

The reason so many modern teams play with false wingers is to fully exploit all of the channels on the park. Let's assume there are five channels:

• Outside-left
• Inside-left
• Centre
• Inside-right
• Outside-right

In the modern game teams hang on to possession much longer than they did on previous generations. Therefore they have the opportunity to move players further forward. For our team, this works as follows:

• Outside-left - Facchetti has the tools to bomb into this channel
• Inside-left - Iniesta - perfect fit
• Centre - Zico of course
• Inside-right - Tom Finney can come in or go wide, with support from Bozsik (who sits deeper of course)
• Outside-right - Andrade showing off those silks he's famous for (although in this game he has a more defensive brief)

Obviously we don't have both full-backs forward at the same time, but we have the quality on the ball across the team to attack in this proven effective way.

Now the opposition here don't utilise the channels to the same extent:

• Outside-left - Giggs and Camacho
• Inside-left - Nobody really, Henry will cut in at times though
• Centre - Cruyff
• Inside-right - Nobody really, occassionally Figo if being generous
• Outside-right - Figo and Amoros

Now there is an argument to give Cruyff space in the middle there. But at the same time this whole approach of full-backs and wingers hitting the same channel has gone completely out of fashion in the modern game, because ultimately both full-back and winger are duplicating one another.

 

[Stobzilla]

Let's just say that the gulf of quality between Cryuff and Souness is bigger than Effenberg and Zico.

Cruyff is the best player on the pitch and I can't see Souness stopping him.

And besides, I'm not sure I got it when was Andrade's peak? Will you use the 1930 one? Cause if it is like that I'm positive he won't work in this formation as a full back in a 4 men backline.

I'm not sure there's enough info that the whole right flank will work for you in the combination of Finney and Andrade. Obviously great players if we go by the book, but they played in formations that are nowhere near the one that you have put.

All in all I can see 3 wide players - Facchetti mostly on his own on the flank and Finney/Andrade forming the right side when they are used to play in formation a lot different to the one presented.

That isn't even close to being true, sorry.

 

[MJJ]

I can see Enigma working for the first two thirds of the pitch but it falls away after that, Cruyff IS the type of glue that could make the 3 around him work better together than they have any right too but I got peppered for suggesting that Henry could lead a line in the way he is being asked to here as recent as the last draft. Him and Giggs would be in each others space quite a bit and Figo's crossing doesn't have a great target here. With that said it is still a mighty even game and one I'll come back to vote on later.

Henry/Pires/Bergkamp worked very well and Henry/Giggs/Cruyff is a clear upgrade on that.

It's not like Henry is against two strong defenders here who will dominate him aerially. Henry has done well against nesta in the past.

And both Henry giggs operating in that leftish area works for us well as there is only facchetti on that wing.

@Gio w.r.t Andrade given that a traditional right back position didn't exist back then has to count against him. Having qualities for a position doesn't mean he would have excelled in the role you have assigned to him (based on his description I don't even think he has the qualities ).

Back then defending was mostly man marking as well and I don't think him man marking giggs will go well.

Not to mention you have greaves playing off center with no real centre forwaed.

 

[Stobzilla]

It clogs the space. Giggs' inclination is to not come inward onto his opposite foot whereas Pires came off the left onto his stronger right foot so it isn't really the same personnel making it work.

 

[Gio]

I just don't see that. I don't think you rate Ruggeri as you should or overrate Chumpitaz.

Ask any South American who is better. There will be one clear answer and it won't be Oscar. That xtrainmortal site (forgive me for I have sinned) has him down as the 9th best centre-half of all time.

More importantly though, Ruggeri's strength is in the air. We won't be hoisting high balls up to Zico and Greaves. Zico will be receiving it on the deck, spinning and causing big Oscar no end of problems. Chumpitaz, by contrast, excels on the deck (as does Nesta of course), which is why he's a good fit for dealing with Henry.

 

[Enigma_87]

That isn't even close to being true, sorry.

I think Effenberg and Souness are not that far off from each other to be honest. Both different type of players but Effenberg is one of the great Bayern players and was a true leader on the pitch.

It depends on how you rate them both of course.

As for Zico vs Cruyff I think Cruyff is the better player of the two. Not to take anything from Zico but Cryuff is one that revolutionized football. Before he came to Ajax they were amateur side and couple of years later they were 3 times in a row European Cup champions...

 

[MJJ]

The reason so many modern teams play with false wingers is to fully exploit all of the channels on the park. Let's assume there are five channels:

• Outside-left
• Inside-left
• Centre
• Inside-right
• Outside-right

In the modern game teams hang on to possession much longer than they did on previous generations. Therefore they have the opportunity to move players further forward. For our team, this works as follows:

• Outside-left - Facchetti has the tools to bomb into this channel
• Inside-left - Iniesta - perfect fit
• Centre - Zico of course
• Inside-right - Tom Finney can come in or go wide, with support from Bozsik (who sits deeper of course)
• Outside-right - Andrade showing off those silks he's famous for (although in this game he has a more defensive brief)

Obviously we don't have both full-backs forward at the same time, but we have the quality on the ball across the team to attack in this proven effective way.

Now the opposition here don't utilise the channels to the same extent:

• Outside-left - Giggs and Camacho
• Inside-left - Nobody really, Henry will cut in at times though
• Centre - Cruyff
• Inside-right - Nobody really, occassionally Figo if being generous
• Outside-right - Figo and Amoros

Now there is an argument to give Cruyff space in the middle there. But at the same time this whole approach of full-backs and wingers hitting the same channel has gone completely out of fashion in the modern game, because ultimately both full-back and winger are duplicating one another.

Should I post that giggs goal? Giggs is effective going out wide or cutting in.

You meanwhile have greaves in a weird outside left role, facchetti alone against figo and amoros, Andrade in a position where he would be decent at best , and a crowded middle which will limit zico.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ask any South American who is better. There will be one clear answer and it won't be Oscar. That xtrainmortal site (forgive me for I have sinned) has him down as the 9th best centre-half of all time.

More importantly though, Ruggeri's strength is in the air. We won't be hoisting high balls up to Zico and Greaves. Zico will be receiving it on the deck, spinning and causing big Oscar no end of problems. Chumpitaz, by contrast, excels on the deck (as does Nesta of course), which is why he's a good fit for dealing with Henry.

Let's not pretend that Ruggeri's positional sense is not right up there with the best. Just rewatch WC 86 and 90 and you'll see what I mean. He was dominator in the air but that doesn't mean that he's not on Chumpitaz level on the ground. Being a beast in the air doesn't make him any less of it.

And there are bunch of sites that have Ruggeri on top in those rankings. They are a bit useless if you compare them like that.

And you won't send a ball forward? Only play on the ground? I'm not sure this is how football works. If we push up there will be cleared balls guess who will win the duels in the air.

It clogs the space. Giggs' inclination is to not come inward onto his opposite foot whereas Pires came off the left onto his stronger right foot so it isn't really the same personnel making it work.

Giggs is know for changing direction in his dribbling, I don't think there's a problem if he runs into space it's basically what he does He's not a ball hog so he'll exploit the open space.