Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Enigma_87/MJJ vs Gio

[Physiocrat]

Enigma_87/MJJ

Squad summary and key points:

GK: Pat Jennings - "Good morning God," was how Arsenal's players greeted goalkeeper Pat Jennings during the great Irishman's reign as the teams undisputed number one in the 1970's and 1980's. He was the first goalkeeper to save with his feet consistently, his clearances got a good length and his goal kicks had a great distance. During his time he was one of the best in one-on-one situations which invariably saved Arsenal and Spurs a lot of the time. Incredibly agile just flung out of the goal mouth and pretty much caught anything.

RB: Manuel Amoros - Manuel Amoros was a versatile full-back which he was able to play both left and right-side without a significant different due to his great in both feet. He was an extraordinary wing-back in the world during 1980s with his fast, excellent movement, intelligent and skillful. He was really an excellent combo both defensively and offensively. Will be up against Iniesta. The combination of superior speed and excellent defence should match well.

CB: Franco Baresi - Not much to say that is not known - Possibly the best defender ever and certainly the best on the pitch. Ray Wilkins probably describes him best - "Franco was the best player I have ever played with. The guy was world class to his core. He had everything – pace, two feet, and he was a leader of men". He'll be the last stop for anyone of Zico/Iniesta/Greaves. With his phenomenal reading of the game he was always where the ball was and was extremely tough for any striker to get a sniff at, and he played with the best.

CB: Oscar Ruggeri - one of the most successful defenders in Argentina's football history. Center back who always gave his best, dominant in the air, committed and skillful, Ruggeri represented Argentina in three World Cups(winning one and 1 final). Argentina's defensive record at those 2 WC was impeccable - 9 goals conceded in 14 games. He was lord of the skies, scored a lot of goals from heading and, most important, in his defense box he ruled all the aerial balls.

LB: J.A. Camacho - One of the most complete left back ever and a Real Madrid legend. Cafu level of stamina and tirelessness he'll chase everyone down the pitch, Finney as well. A quote of Mario Kempes describes him best : "If you think he sweats a lot as a coach, imagine how much he sweated as a player. He was like a hunting dog; wherever you went on the pitch, he went. You knew that if you looked over your shoulder, he'd be there waiting for you. He didn't talk either, he just breathed in a very strange way - "Fsst, fsst, fsst, fsst"! A real nightmare."

MC: Gerson - Best midfielder and second only to Pele in Brazil's best 1970 team. Gerson completely dominated the midfield, including a class performance against Italy in the final. He was the midfield dictator oozing elegance, vision and excellent range of passing. Man of the match in the final scoring a wonderful goal as well. Most famous for his technical and cerebral quality, his defensive game is somewhat under-appreciated with an aggression and commitment to the tackle not typical of the archetypal deep-lying playmaker(description shamelessly stolen from Gio from previos drafts).

DM/MC: Steffan Effenberg - "The boss" is our leader in the middle of the park. One of football's hardman but also with great passing ability and range. A true leader and warior in the middle of the park.

LW: Ryan Giggs - United and world legend. Blistering pace will be up against Andrade who will not be playing at his main position. Giggs would play a key role in this game beating with pace and trickery his man most of the time. Giggs also contributes for both ends - defensively and offensively, like Figo, which really helps control the midfield and get the ball back.

In the hole/free role - Johan Cruyff - best player in Europe's history bar none. He could defend comfortably like a regular in defence even in the back lines of the field. The central piece of the total football in the Mechanic Orange - ultimate General on the pitch, organizing total football on the pitch. In '74WC almost every actions started end finished with a pass of Cruyff, he came back to help and defend in the midfield, he started to defend in the opposite half of the pitch sometimes near the penalty area too - his condition of fitness made him able to run all the time.

RW: Luis Figo - 2000's Ballon D'Or winner has a decent shout of being one of the top right wingers of all time. Playing on either wing, Figo’s dribbling, stepovers, through balls, free-kicks, passes and reading of the game made him into a true legend. Recently Messi passed him in the all time Primera assist table after 11 years at Barca. Figo did it in 10. Excellent team player that can control the midfield and contribute both offensively and defensively.

CF: Thierry Henry - Peak Henry was one of those strikers that were unstoppable. His assist and goals tally speak for itself. He'll be up against Chumpitaz and Nesta. Chumpitaz is really fast center back but not in the same league as Henry. Nesta is the better CB but a lot slower than peak Henry who will use that and his skills to put a MoTM performance.

Key points:

Midfield battle. Both midfields are quite similar. Defensive box to box player in Effenberg and Souness, a bit static and positionally very good central midfielders with the option of putting a shift both defensively and offensively (Gerson/Bozsik) and advanced/free role in Zico/Cruyff. The key here is Figo/Giggs/Cruyff all capable of putting a shift in midfield and getting the ball back, while Finney, Iniesta and Zico won't be able to do so to that extend putting most of the pressure on Bozsik and Souness.

Giggs/Figo on the flanks vs Gio's full backs: Gio has the best full back on the pitch, but Giggs on Andrade on the other flank is a mismatch. Andrade primaraly position is in the middle, and his pace is no match for prime Giggs.

Iniesta/Finney against Amoros/Camacho: we have 2 world class full backs who are a perfect match for Gio's wing options. I don't think both of them can get better of both our full backs.

Baresi/Ruggeri vs Zico/Greaves. Baresi in 94 WC put a masterclass against a striker who is better than Greaves(Romario) in both goalscoring and pace. Greaves was certainly a really fast player, but not on Henry's level or aforementioned Romario. Ruggeri is also maybe the best header on the pitch, no coincidence he's called the big headed one.

Nesta/Chumpitaz vs Cruyff/Henry. Nesta is an excellent defender one of the best certainly but Henry burnt him with pace on more than one occasion. Chumpitaz is quicker than Nesta, but again no match neither for Henry or Cruyff. It will be extremely hard for Gio's defence to handle BOTH Cruyff and Henry's pace and trickery. We simply have the better pair in CB and AM/SC options.

Having the two best players on the pitch. Gio's star players are Zico and Facchetti but in this case Cruyff and Baresi just take the nod.

Pace on counter: we have really excellent players to hit Gio on the counter. Giggs/Figo on the flanks and Cruyff/ Henry in the middle. Gerson is the best passer on the pitch and Effenberg also possesses excellent vision and passing rage. Both can find our wingers and forwards with a pinpoint accuracy.

Balance - our team has perfect balance all over the pitch. Gio might have problem with Iniesta creating width and Andrade being at RB against Giggs.

Spoiler: Relative Positional Zones- Enigma/MJJ's view)

Enigma_87/MJJ


Gio

[/CODE]

 

[Physiocrat]

TACTICS:

We are founded on a rock-solid defence that marries the best Europe and South America have to offer. Our entire back four would be in any all-time European or South American XI/squad. As well as being defensively watertight, they can dictate the game from the back. Both Facchetti and Andrade shine on and off the ball and can advance into the middle third when Souness sits in to hold. Souness did the very same when leading Liverpool to all that European glory but here the calibre of his team-mates is multiplied tenfold.

In midfield, the ruthless Souness anchors and will be assigned to keep close tabs on the great Cruyff. He won’t feck about and he’ll ensure the Dutchman’s influence in the hole is limited. Bozsik and Iniesta will then play pretty patterns pulling Gerson and Effenberg/Cerezo apart. They’ll combine with Zico and there’ll be a quality and numerical overload that will make all the difference.

Zico leads the attack from the hole and is partnered by Jimmy Greaves. The left-footed goalsmith Greaves will dovetail delightfully with the right-footed Zico who can pass or plunder with the best of them. On the right is the legendary Tom Finney. His job will be to provide the width to stretch Enigma/MJJ’s defence. In recognition of his ability to excel right across the front line, Finney will also have a free role to overload, surprise and generally feck about with the back four. Regardless he will help generate the space for Zico, Greaves, Iniesta and Bozsik to kill the tie.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

Zico will drop into the hole and find the space to win the game. Either he’ll thread one in for Greaves to run onto or he’ll fire in the winner himself. Either way he’ll make the difference. Whether he’s marked directly or it’s a zonal job between two of Gerson, Effenberg and Cerezo, either way he’s too good to be shackled.

Our left flank will take control of the game. Facchetti should shut out Figo and will combine tantalisingly with Iniesta when going forward. Against that sort of company, Amoros will have his hands full. It’s a concerning mismatch that, when combined with the joy Zico should have, will tip it in our favour.

Elsewhere on the park it’s legends everywhere. They’ll by and large cancel one another out. But it’s the Zico/Iniesta/Bozsik axis that is likely to make the difference.

@Gio
@MJJ
@Enigma_87

 

[Physiocrat]

@Rado_N

Can you put a 24hr poll on please with the following options?

Enigma_87/MJJ 1-0 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 2-0 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 2-1 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 3-0 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 3-1 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 3-2 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 0-1 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 0-2 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 1-2 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 0-3 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 1-3 Gio
Enigma_87/MJJ 2-3 Gio

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks @Physiocrat for putting it up and good luck to @Gio.

 

[Physiocrat]

Anybody know how to put the team sheets side by side?

 

[Gio]

All the best to @Enigma_87 and @MJJ.

 

[MJJ]

Not sure if enigma is here but facchetti will have his hands full with figo and won't be able to contribute in attack as much as you would require from a wingback. Given that iniesta is playing in midfield amoros and figo will outnumber facchetti 2 to 1 and that flank will be productive for us.

Similarly Andrade is going to suffer badly against giggs and if Finney isn't helping about in defense but has a free role in attack to create space I can see that giggs getting getting lot of joy out of Andrade.

Gerson has the quality to find both our wingers immediately and given that souness is man marking cruyff it will be interesting the impact his roaming from his central position will have on your midfield shape. A boszik zico and iniesta mid doesn't seemed the most balanced to me.

And wasn't greaves more of a poacher, you need someone like Henry to play the role you have currently assigned to him.(might be wrong about this)

Now that the essay is over best of luck gio! Should be a good one.

 

[Rado_N]

Poll with the most options ever added.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Anybody know how to put the team sheets side by side?

Just paste then one after other without pressing enter.

[IMG] vs [IMG]

It comes one below other during writing of the post, but after posted it comes side by side (due to bigger screen area, I suppose)

 

[green_smiley]

Anybody know how to put the team sheets side by side?

Just do it, literally

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Poll with the most options ever added.

Between this and the Cricket draft, this probably will be a full time job for you.

I did vote you as the most helpful mod in the awards. Much appreciated!

 

[green_smiley]

Between this and the Cricket draft, this probably will be a full time job for you.

I did vote you as the most helpful mod in the awards. Much appreciated!

Same

 

[Gio]

PLAYER PROFILES​

PETER SHILTON
Pivotal to provincial club Nottingham Forest slaying the best Europe had to offer in taking ol’ big ears back to the Midlands. Shilton was probably the best keeper in the game in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

GIACINTO FACCHETTI
Stands alongside Maldini as the greatest left-back of all-time. Quick, powerful, defensively solid (latterly deployed as a sweeper) yet productive on the ball with an eye for goal.

ALESSANDRO NESTA
The standout defender of the modern era who married the ruthless defensive instincts typical of the best Italians with the unflappable class confined to a mere handful of the global greats.

HECTOR CHUMPITAZ
One of the finest defenders of all time and in South America behind only Figueroa. Squat and muscular when off the ball, expansive when on it.

He was incredibly athletic, known for his great leap, he was quick, strong on the ground and in the air, and tough as nails mentally. And unlike a few of other great defenders who were silky smooth on the ball and known a lot for their technique, Chumpitaz was a great 'pure defender'. If I had to compare him to someone from modern times, it would be Alessandro Nesta. Both really complete defenders.

JOSE ANDRADE

The first international football superstar. Why? Because at a time when football was about 5 defensive players vs. 5 attacking players, Andrade was the first to combine both to devastating effect. He would both shut out his flank AND make the transition to attack, carrying the ball out of his own half and terrorising defences with his dribbling and precise long passing/crossing.

The Black Marvel, as the French baptised him was the fulcrum for a dominant Uruguay side which picked up two Olympic Golds, the first World Cup and three Copa Américas.

France brought him to the limelight. The nickname "The Black Marvel" was coined after he entangled and captivated the gaul stands with his bewitching play. A polished technique, his feline movement across the pitch, a sense of positioning and timing which allowed him to be in the right place at the right time to avoid a goal, even when the ball had already beaten the keeper. He nullified his rival -whoever that was-; and played his way upfield with a perfect dribble; passed the ball to the centimetre; and defended "from head to toe".

A complete player. A few years ago, a group of reputable critics had a roundtable to determine Uruguay's Best Ever XI and he was undisputed as a right half-back, but also picked as centre-half, and was in with a shout for his latter days as a forward when his pace was gone but his ability on the ball wasn't.

His burst into the Parisian scene was followed by the triumphant campaigns in Amsterdam and Montevideo. In the seven years between 1923 and 1930 he defended the sky blue 43 times, losing only three games and in all the major finals not once did a rival goal originate on his side of the pitch.

GRAEME SOUNESS
A devastating combination of silk and steel. Dominant midfield powerhouse who led Liverpool to three European Cups, mixing with and overcoming some legendary peers in Breitner and Falcao. Ruthlessly aggressive yet classy on the ball, like Keane his influence was never just confined to his own performance.

JOZSEF BOZSIK
The playmaking genius behind one of the greatest international teams of all time. Right-half with the wand of a right foot. Not a box-to-box dynamo but is nevertheless solid in the tackle, astute and positionally disciplined.

ANDRES INIESTA
Big-game player who now stands comparison with many of the great 8/10s of the modern era. A shining light in Barcelona’s dominance and finds a complementary Xavi-esque partner in Bozsik, a galloping overlapper in Facchetti and the nimble and slippery Zico.

ZICO
A less leaky defence in the summer of ’82 may have catapulted Zico into the Pele and Maradona stratosphere. As it was he is remembered for being a prodigious goalscorer, consummate technician and dazzling dribbler.

Rio State Championship: 1972, 1974, 1978, 1979, 1979 (extra), 1981, 1986
Brazilian Série A: 1980, 1982, 1983, 1987
Copa Libertadores: 1981 (best player and top scorer)
Intercontinental Cup: 1981
World Footballer of the Year 1981 - Guerin Sportivo, El Mundo, El Balon, Placar Magazine
South American Footballer of the Year 1981, 1982
1982 FIFA World Cup Bronze Boot
1982 FIFA World Cup All-Star Team

1978: 22 games, 19 goals
1979: 51 games, 65 goals
1980: 45 games, 40 goals
1981: 54 games, 39 goals
1982: 48 games, 44 goals

TOM FINNEY
Wing wizard and goalscorer rolled into one whose all-round game saw him considered by many of his peers as the standout of a richly talented era in English football. Two-footed, "a surging, swerving dribbler" who was comfortable across the front line.

Tom Finney would have been great in any team, in any match and in any age ... even if he had been wearing an overcoat.

Aye, he's as good as Tommy – but then Tommy's nearly 60 now.

To me Messi is Finney reborn. He was a diamond. If I was a manager and was able to buy any player who has played the game, I would buy Finney.

To dictate the pace and course of a game, a player has to be blessed with awesome qualities. Those who have accomplished it on a regular basis can be counted on the fingers of one hand – Pelé, Maradona, Best, Di Stefano, and Tom Finney.

JIMMY GREAVES
The top scorer in the English top tier a record six times and England's fourth highest international goalscorer with 44 goals in just 57 games. Tottenham Hotspur's highest ever goalscorer (268 goals), the highest goalscorer in the history of English top-flight football (357 goals), and has also scored more hat-tricks (six) for England than anyone else. Supreme finisher, likely the best the British game has ever seen, who was quick, always found space and always made the right decision.

People remember him primarily as a goal-poacher, but he was a tremendous dribbler too. He scored one goal for Spurs against us at White Hart Lane where he beat half the team, including the goalkeeper, before rolling it into an empty net.

He was so quick with his feet and he had the ability to link the play so well, not only scoring so many goals but creating for those around him.

 

[Rado_N]

Between this and the Cricket draft, this probably will be a full time job for you.

I did vote you as the most helpful mod in the awards. Much appreciated!

Beats doing my real job

And thanks

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Will read through the OP's in a bit...but 1st opinions based on teamsheet alone...Like Enigma's team better.

Bozsik is a different type of player to Xavi and I don't think Souness is a pivot. So that midfield 3 looks tweaked to fit Iniesta...a bit off to me. Not sure what the advantages are in not making it a standard 4-2-3-1. Better use of all 3 players imo.

 

[Marty1968]

Not sure if enigma is here but facchetti will have his hands full with figo and won't be able to contribute in attack as much as you would require from a wingback. Given that iniesta is playing in midfield amoros and figo will outnumber facchetti 2 to 1 and that flank will be productive for us.

Similarly Andrade is going to suffer badly against giggs and if Finney isn't helping about in defense but has a free role in attack to create space I can see that giggs getting getting lot of joy out of Andrade.

Gerson has the quality to find both our wingers immediately and given that souness is man marking cruyff it will be interesting the impact his roaming from his central position will have on your midfield shape. A boszik zico and iniesta mid doesn't seemed the most balanced to me.

And wasn't greaves more of a poacher, you need someone like Henry to play the role you have currently assigned to him.(might be wrong about this)

Now that the essay is over best of luck gio! Should be a good one.

First question I can see is how will Gerson and Effenberg be able to compete in the middle against Iniesta, Souness and Bozsik? Have had Gerson before in these drafts and whilst he's certainly a genius with the ball at his feet, he wasn't renowned for his workrate. He'll have a lot to do with Souness hounding him all game.

The front 4 looks awesome though and with Gerson pulling the strings when he has the ball, will help to create plenty of opportunities.

Baresi and Ruggeri at the back are one of the best pairings in the draft for me too.

 

[Enigma_87]

Alright. Some key points to address right off the bat.

TACTICS:
In midfield, the ruthless Souness anchors and will be assigned to keep close tabs on the great Cruyff. He won’t feck about and he’ll ensure the Dutchman’s influence in the hole is limited. Bozsik and Iniesta will then play pretty patterns pulling Gerson and Effenberg/Cerezo apart. They’ll combine with Zico and there’ll be a quality and numerical overload that will make all the difference.

I don't think having Souness man mark Cruyff would be a good idea at all in this game. Souness is not the greatest man markers in history, while on the other hand Cruyff is surely top 5 legend in the game. Souness does not have the acceleration of the pace Cruyff has. If he's beaten man to man, and this is something Cruyff is one of the best at this will leave either flank open for our quick wingers or Cruyff - Henry 2 on 2 against Gio's CB.

As for numerical overload, Cruyff is the definition of a total footballer, his defensive contribution should not be overrated at all. We also have Figo who is known to have great stamina and ability to tuck in and give us numbers in midfield. All in all we have more players on the pitch that can contribute defensively while Zico, Iniesta and Finney I don't think are up to that standard.

Zico leads the attack from the hole and is partnered by Jimmy Greaves. The left-footed goalsmith Greaves will dovetail delightfully with the right-footed Zico who can pass or plunder with the best of them. On the right is the legendary Tom Finney. His job will be to provide the width to stretch Enigma/MJJ’s defence. In recognition of his ability to excel right across the front line, Finney will also have a free role to overload, surprise and generally feck about with the back four. Regardless he will help generate the space for Zico, Greaves, Iniesta and Bozsik to kill the tie.

Bozsik is a lot like Gerson - he doesn't have much pace, which is the same for Zico who(although seemingly fast) is relying more on his great technique and vision. I don't think our midfield would be vulnerable as the central players in it are pretty much alike what Gio has but with the option of Cruyff to balance things out in midfield.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

Zico will drop into the hole and find the space to win the game. Either he’ll thread one in for Greaves to run onto or he’ll fire in the winner himself. Either way he’ll make the difference. Whether he’s marked directly or it’s a zonal job between two of Gerson, Effenberg and Cerezo, either way he’s too good to be shackled.

Our left flank will take control of the game. Facchetti should shut out Figo and will combine tantalisingly with Iniesta when going forward. Against that sort of company, Amoros will have his hands full. It’s a concerning mismatch that, when combined with the joy Zico should have, will tip it in our favour.

Elsewhere on the park it’s legends everywhere. They’ll by and large cancel one another out. But it’s the Zico/Iniesta/Bozsik axis that is likely to make the difference.

As for Greaves/Zico, already mentioned but I don't think is a better fit against a defence consisting of Baresi/Ruggeri.

Baresi almost single handedly shut Bebeto - Romario for 120 mins although just declared fit. One game to have also in mind is Van Basten -Gullit in 90 where the great Franco again marshaled the defense and again put MoTM performance against the great Marco and Gullit.


In this formation Gio's left flank would be outnumbered and could easily be exposed.

 

[Gio]

Will read through the OP's in a bit...but 1st opinions based on teamsheet alone...Like Enigma's team better.

Bozsik is a different type of player to Xavi and I don't think Souness is a pivot. So that midfield 3 looks tweaked to fit Iniesta...a bit off to me. Not sure what the advantages are in not making it a standard 4-2-3-1. Better use of all 3 players imo.

:CONFUSED: Iniesta has played his entire club career in a midfield three, I'm not really sure what the problem is. It's about adapting your midfield to the demands of the opposition. Cruyff is in the hole so Souness is the natural fit there to pick him up.

Meanwhile, I'm not really sure how Zico is getting picked up at the other end.

 

[Physiocrat]

Poll with the most options ever added.

Thanks

 

[MJJ]

First question I can see is how will Gerson and Effenberg be able to compete in the middle against Iniesta, Souness and Bozsik? Have had Gerson before in these drafts and whilst he's certainly a genius with the ball at his feet, he wasn't renowned for his workrate. He'll have a lot to do with Souness hounding him all game.

The front 4 looks awesome though and with Gerson pulling the strings when he has the ball, will help to create plenty of opportunities.

Baresi and Ruggeri at the back are one of the best pairings in the draft for me too.

Will let gio answer this for us

I believe gerson, effenberg and cruyff (can't exclude him as he wasn't wasn't typical number 10 like zico) will more than hold their own against that mid.Gersonwasn't like Pirlo where he needed ball winners ago protect him and make the midfield work.

And you have to remember with iniesta in midfield, our team has a clear outlet ball to figo/amoros.

Not only is Gerson the best passer on the park, he can also hold his own defensively. In fact anyone watching Mexico '70 would see that he's far more of an all-rounder than your archetypal deep-lying playmaker. As well as dominating the tournament on the ball - impressive given the summer heat and altitude in the Azteca and in Guadalajara - together with Clodoaldo he was a hard cnut to get past.

Spoiler

Gerson will hold his own defensively. Especially with his proven foil Clodoaldo. He won't harry around chasing lost causes, but he'll be positionally disciplined and aggressive. He had no trouble dominating plenty of hard-working European midfields in 1970. Even amid the heat and altitude of mid-summer Mexico.

The Gerson debate's been done to death. As for his overall standing in the game, Anto's an authority on the South American game and said:

Not sure why you include Zico. As a CM it's one of Didi, Gerson or Falcao. They all have a good claim but you couldn't say any is head and shoulders better.

 

[Enigma_87]

Will read through the OP's in a bit...but 1st opinions based on teamsheet alone...Like Enigma's team better.

Bozsik is a different type of player to Xavi and I don't think Souness is a pivot. So that midfield 3 looks tweaked to fit Iniesta...a bit off to me. Not sure what the advantages are in not making it a standard 4-2-3-1. Better use of all 3 players imo.

I agree with this I expected Iniesta to be on the left. Bozsik is quite different to Xavi. I think Bozsik and Gerson are quite alike, however if we're to trust anto and some other experts in Brazillian football Gerson is to be considered at the same level as Falcao and Didi so I think we have a slight advantage in this area.

I can see Gio trying to shore up the midfield but Zico won't contribute much defensively, Finney as well is traditional winger that won't be able to make a contribution as well and Iniesta is not the most defensive minded players on the pitch.

I don't think Bozsik/Iniesta/Souness would offer enough protection especially if Souness is man marking Cruyff.

Also for the latter part that usually doesn't work as one reference is the 1972 European cup final when Cruyff was man marked the whole game and scored a brace in the second half for Ajax to win 2-0.

Here's one match where Cruyf contributed a lot all over the pitch against Real away at the Bernabey. The amount of times he intercepted passes, sliding tackles and that goal He was literally everywhere.

 

[Gio]

I agree with this I expected Iniesta to be on the left. Bozsik is quite different to Xavi. I think Bozsik and Gerson are quite alike, however if we're to trust anto and some other experts in Brazillian football Gerson is to be considered at the same level as Falcao and Didi so I think we have a slight advantage in this area.

I rate Gerson - obviously as I had him in the last draft. But I don't know anybody who would have him above Bozsik. A similar sort of level with most experts giving the advantage to Bozsik if forced to chose. But not a lot in it frankly.

I can see Gio trying to shore up the midfield but Zico won't contribute much defensively, Finney as well is traditional winger that won't be able to make a contribution as well and Iniesta is not the most defensive minded players on the pitch.

Iniesta will contribute: he's been part of Barcelona's effective pressing machine for almost a decade now.

As for bigging up Figo's defensive contribution, it's not something that's guaranteed given how lazy he often was at Real Madrid. He had more graft about him at Barcelona, but he's still not exactly Nedved in that respect. Finney will work just as much there and was noted for his stamina at Preston.

 

[Physiocrat]

Just paste then one after other without pressing enter.

[IMG] vs [IMG]

It comes one below other during writing of the post, but after posted it comes side by side (due to bigger screen area, I suppose)

I can't seem to edit it to work. Will try it next time. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Enigma_87]

I rate Gerson - obviously as I had him in the last draft. But I don't know anybody who would have him above Bozsik. A similar sort of level with most experts giving the advantage to Bozsik if forced to chose. But not a lot in it frankly.

Gerson peak came when playing for probably the best international side in 70. He ran the show in a midfield two with Clodoaldo while he had 4 very attacking minded players in front of him. I agree not much between them some will give the nod to Gerson, other to Bozsik.

Iniesta will contribute: he's been part of Barcelona's effective pressing machine for almost a decade now.

Iniesta is the least effective when it comes to defensive contribution in that Barca side. Xavi and Yaya/Busquets took the majority of the defensive work and Iniesta was with a more of an attacking role.

As for bigging up Figo's defensive contribution, it's not something that's guaranteed given how lazy he often was at Real Madrid. He had more graft about him at Barcelona, but he's still not exactly Nedved in that respect. Finney will work just as much there and was noted for his stamina at Preston.

At his peak Figo was really great physically he could run all day. I think his physical peak came when he won the ballon d'or and when he switched clubs. He contributed a lot defensively. Yes in the latter stage in his career he was not up to that level but at Inter again he was moved to the middle when his pace decreased and again he had some defensive responsibilities at times.

We have the players to run all day around Effenberg and Gerson. Henry is also noted sometimes for his sliding tackles and pressing game he will be our first line of defence and press your CB pairing right off the bat.

Also in that formation you have only Facchetti on the left flank on his own. We have Amoros and Figo. If you keep Iniesta helping the midfield you'll get overran on the flank.

 

[Gio]

Similarly Andrade is going to suffer badly against giggs and if Finney isn't helping about in defense but has a free role in attack to create space I can see that giggs getting getting lot of joy out of Andrade.

I think that's a lazy assumption. Andrade is considered one of the greatest of all time: there is no basis to assume Giggs will get the better of him.

however if we're to trust anto and some other experts

Absolutely, and on that basis, we should give Andrade his due credit here. By all accounts he matches up to Giggs in terms of physicality, dynamism, ability on and off the ball.

 

[Gio]

JOSE ANDRADE: UP TO THE JOB?

Him being black makes him a cult figure among people of African origin, he was a trail-blazer. The very first to play internationally was actually another Uruguayan (Isabelino Gradin) in an away game against Brazil, where football was an elitist sport. Black people took notice.

A few years later there were already a couple of black Brazilians worthy of a national callup, but the Brazilian Federation barred them from playing (at the country's President's request, no less). At one point there were people complaining Uruguay were cheating by fielding African players.

Then in 1924, for the first time, a South American team crossed the ocean to pit itself against the very best. After all, that's where football had come from. The Yugoslavs were up first and sent spies, so the confident Uruguayans decided to train like complete monkeys, overshooting their balls, missing the goal by a mile, running into each other... Chaplin stuff. "They won't be a problem" stated the report, and Yugoslavia lost 7-0. Those present at the Olympics realised there was something special and new about it all. It wasn't methodic and rigid, but fluid, it was revolutionary... and that got the wheels turning and eventually led to the creation of the World Cup Tournament.

People were taken aback by the fluid passing, the ingenuity, the attacking flair... At the centre of it all was José Leandro Andrade, the right halfback. Halfbacks were usually defensive, some attacking, but very few combined both. Andrade was the one organising the defensive line, but also bringing the ball out of defence and acting, effectively, as a deep-lying playmaker.

No one got anywhere near him, or else they would risk embarrassment. It was his dribbling and passing range which made him the Black Marvel, but also the way he run the game at a time when the pitch was split into halves and connecting them two was a long ball. Andrade would keep the ball at feet and progress, attacking the space until some poor sod broke the line and came to stop him, providing the gap for a 5 vs. 4 or an opportunity to dribble through and turn that into 5 vs. 3. Revolutionary stuff, ridiculous as it may now sound.

Don't get me wrong, his defensive duties were of significant importance so in a tight game those would be prioritised. You certainly wouldn't find him running the length of the pitch then. Just to highlight his defensive nous I offer the following:

• 1924 final, against a free-scoring Switzerland. Their star player, Abegglen was the tournament top scorer so far. He operated at inside left, Andrade shut him out: 3-0.

• 1928 final, against eternal rivals Argentina. Top scorer of the tournament Tarasconi, inside left, shut out. 1-1 and 2-1 (no ET or penos then), both Argentine goals came from the other flank.

• 1930 final, again against Argentina, who had the tournos top scorer again (a CF though). Andrade was man of the match keeping Uruguay in the game while still 2-1 down and at 2-2. Both goals scored from the left flank again.

He was immense and had the attributes to do a job either on the right of a DM pair or at fullback.

But back to the story... it was Andrade's success and acclaim at the Paris Olympics that finally forced the Brazilian Federation's hand. Fortunate for us spectators, unfortunate for every side they have pissed on since!

 

[Enigma_87]

I think that's a lazy assumption. Andrade is considered one of the greatest of all time: there is no basis to assume Giggs will get the better of him.

Absolutely, and on that basis, we should give Andrade his due credit here. By all accounts he matches up to Giggs in terms of physicality, dynamism, ability on and off the ball.

From what I know of Andrade his position was inside right. On most sources he is playing as a DM or a CM. All his strengths are also more apt for more central position.

Giggs in his prime was a speed demon. Within 3-4 seconds he can be 30-40 yards away. I don't think Andrade main asset was pace.

I couldn't find any source of Andrade being a full back on regular basis or doing well in that position.

• 1924 final, against a free-scoring Switzerland. Their star player, Abegglen was the tournament top scorer so far. He operated at inside left, Andrade shut him out: 3-0.

• 1928 final, against eternal rivals Argentina. Top scorer of the tournament Tarasconi, inside left, shut out. 1-1 and 2-1 (no ET or penos then), both Argentine goals came from the other flank.

• 1930 final, again against Argentina, who had the tournos top scorer again (a CF though). Andrade was man of the match keeping Uruguay in the game while still 2-1 down and at 2-2. Both goals scored from the left flank again.

He was immense and had the attributes to do a job either on the right of a DM pair or at fullback.

From that description it seems that he's a bit more advanced role than the traditional full back. More like a right wing back in that position.

His qualities also doesn't suggest he can cope with Giggs speed on the flank, especially if he's positioned further on the pitch.

If he has speed disadvantage over Giggs it wouldn't make sense to play him further up where he's more vulnerable.

 

[Gio]

At his peak Figo was really great physically he could run all day. I think his physical peak came when he won the ballon d'or and when he switched clubs. He contributed a lot defensively. Yes in the latter stage in his career he was not up to that level but at Inter again he was moved to the middle when his pace decreased and again he had some defensive responsibilities at times.

He won the Ballon D'Or at Real Madrid when he mostly played as a languid no10. His defensive contribution at Real was average at best, poor at other times. Ultimately I don't think he's going to get the better of Facchetti going forward and will struggle to keep up with him going back the way.

 

[Gio]

From what I know of Andrade his position was inside right. On most sources he is playing as a DM or a CM. All his strengths are also more apt for more central position.

Giggs in his prime was a speed demon. Within 3-4 seconds he can be 30-40 yards away. I don't think Andrade main asset was pace.

I couldn't find any source of Andrade being a full back on regular basis or doing well in that position.

See Anto's opinion above. He's the authority on this subject - the rest of us are just playing at it.

 

[Enigma_87]

He won the Ballon D'Or at Real Madrid when he mostly played as a languid no10. His defensive contribution at Real was average at best, poor at other times. Ultimately I don't think he's going to get the better of Facchetti going forward and will struggle to keep up with him going back the way.

He moved to Real in the Summer of 2000 when he won it. It's safe to say it's due to his feats with Barca and at the EURO when he tore England a new one and his contribution there was also pretty solid.

 

[Gio]

He moved to Real in the Summer of 2000 when he won it. It's safe to say it's due to his feats with Barca and at the EURO when he tore England a new one and his contribution there was also pretty solid.

For sure. He won it for what he offered going forward. And he did well at Euro 2000 doing just that.

But the bottom line here is that Facchetti will have the better of him both defensively and is likely to outstretch him the other way as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

For sure. He won it for what he offered going forward. And he did well at Euro 2000 doing just that.

But the bottom line here is that Facchetti will have the better of him both defensively and is likely to outstretch him the other way as well.

Surely his main asset is attack, my point is that he was really capable of running throughout the match and giving his contribution both ends.

If Figo and Facchetti negate each other we'll have Amoros to make the flank his own. And Amoros is one of the best right backs in the game, and was as good going forward as at the back.

 

[Gio]

Surely his main asset is attack, my point is that he was really capable of running throughout the match and giving his contribution both ends.

If Figo and Facchetti negate each other we'll have Amoros to make the flank his own. And Amoros is one of the best right backs in the game, and was as good going forward as at the back.

Facchetti is the greatest flank dominator of all time. Figo for all his undoubted talents is not going to cancel him out.

 

[Enigma_87]

Facchetti is the greatest flank dominator of all time. Figo for all his undoubted talents is not going to cancel him out.

Well Figo is no mug. Apart from Garrincha, there are not many better than Luis Figo on the right. Figo is a legend of the game, not just world class. There's no coincidence he won everything in football at club level. There's not much between them, obviously playing in different positions but Figo can take the game to Facchetti.

I think the key here is however the combo between Figo and Amoros. Surely Facchetti can't be on two places at the same time. He's one of the best in the game yes, but he is not as fast as R.Carlos to cover for 2 positions. Both Amoros and Figo will outnumber him in this case and both of them are one of the best in their positions.

It's either disadvantage on the flank to accommodate Iniesta in some kind of central midfield position instead of leaving only Souness and Bozsik centrally. On the other flank Andrade position in terms of positional sense and tactics is questionable whether he'll fit in that formation and as a wide right, as we have again a world class pairing in Camacho and Giggs.

I think our flanks both in terms of balance and in number in this formation are better and we'll take advantage there.

I also like Cruyff/Henry more to create problem for your CB pairing. Souness is not a man marker and I don't think that tactics will work against Cruyff. And while Chumpitaz is fast, he's not as explosive as Cruyff or fast as Henry. Nesta is considerably slower than both.

Here's Nesta on Henry at the EURO where Nesta was closer to his peak:


if Henry is in space Nesta won't be able to catch up. On the other side Greaves is similar to Henry, of course a lot slower and not as explosive. Greaves is also no Romario or Van Basten, who Baresi kept shut on two occasions for more than 3 hrs.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Don't think the arguments above re: Iniesta and Boszik are particularly relevant. Gio doesn't aim to play like Barca, so whether Boszik is similar or dissimilar to Xavi is neither here nor there.

Unless we presuppose that Iniesta is incapable of bringing his A game to the match without a Xavi (and a Biscuits) clone to keep him from feeling homesick. And we can't - or shouldn't. Because it's completely unreasonable.

Souness holding, and keeping tabs on Cruyff, makes sense to me. Both Souness and Bozsik are capable of playing the holder role, but the choice seems obvious to me: Souness brings more steel, simply put - but is still a more than capable passer (an excellent passer, even).

 

[green_smiley]

Gerson peak came when playing for probably the best international side in 70.

In terms of achievement, yes

In terms of performance, he had more mobility during his early 20s, while still possessed fantastic range of passing and match control. Came across 1 youtube video of his match (can't remember if he was with Flamengo or Botafogo) that illustrated what I said. Read that many injuries have blighted his career. By the time of 1970, he was already close to 30 years old

 

[Enigma_87]

In terms of achievement, yes

In terms of performance, he had more mobility during his early 20s, while still possessed fantastic range of passing and match control. Came across 1 youtube video of his match (can't remember if he was with Flamengo or Botafogo) that illustrated what I said. Read that many injuries have blighted his career. By the time of 1970, he was already close to 30 years old

You are right in that sentiment but he's a lot like Bozsik who is not better in terms of mobility than Gerson. The key to this midfield is Cruyff who is in a free role to do what he does best. Zico as well is not reknown to put a defensive shift in, it's just not his game. Hence Gio needs Iniesta to press and tuck him centrally, but that will leave his left flank exposed.
Facchetti is a great player but he can not take 2 great players at the same time in Amoros and Figo. Same is on the other flank where I think we have advantage over Finney and Andrade, whose position in that formation and relatively to the 30's is questionable and Finney I don't think will sneak past Camacho.

I'm not worried about our team defensively. All players can put a shift in, even Henry. We have the pace and stamina to cover a lot of ground. Gerson is a great player in our formation and while Iniesta is known for pressing Bozsik is quite contrary. I don't think Bozsik will work in Barca type of formation(Gerson for that matter as well) and Iniesta was balanced midfielder at Barca but in this case in different formation and style I doubt the same pressing role will work as Souness and Bozsik are totally different to his Barca mates.

Don't think the arguments above re: Iniesta and Boszik are particularly relevant. Gio doesn't aim to play like Barca, so whether Boszik is similar or dissimilar to Xavi is neither here nor there.

Unless we presuppose that Iniesta is incapable of bringing his A game to the match without a Xavi (and a Biscuits) clone to keep him from feeling homesick. And we can't - or shouldn't. Because it's completely unreasonable.

Souness holding, and keeping tabs on Cruyff, makes sense to me. Both Souness and Bozsik are capable of playing the holder role, but the choice seems obvious to me: Souness brings more steel, simply put - but is still a more than capable passer (an excellent passer, even).

I doubt Souness man marking Cruyff is a good idea. Cruyff roams a lot to confuse his markers, he'll drag him out of position and he's more explosive and fast than Souness. Bringing Souness to mark Cruyff is exactly what Cruyff handled most of his career and eventually most of the times he was on top.

Also I don't think Souness is one of the greatest man markers, it's not his game.

 

[Gio]

Well Figo is no mug. Apart from Garrincha, there are not many better than Luis Figo on the right. Figo is a legend of the game, not just world class. There's no coincidence he won everything in football at club level. There's not much between them, obviously playing in different positions but Figo can take the game to Facchetti.

I think the key here is however the combo between Figo and Amoros. Surely Facchetti can't be on two places at the same time. He's one of the best in the game yes, but he is not as fast as R.Carlos to cover for 2 positions.

Facchetti was a sprinter in his youth: he'll easily outstrip either Figo or Amoros. He's probably quicker than Carlos too for that matter. Anyway, it's a moot argument. If Amoros has the ball, we shift across. That's how football works. Iniesta slides along from his withdrawn inside-left position, Zico sits into the hole to stop the easy square ball, Finney drops in and stops anything across the park.

And while Chumpitaz is fast, he's not as explosive as Cruyff or fast as Henry.

Explosive? Look at those legs, those are the thighs of an explosive footballer. He was squat, muscular, dynamic and quick off the mark. That's just his physical qualities, never mind his considerable defensive talents. He's a great fit for the job in hand here.

 

[Enigma_87]

Facchetti was a sprinter in his youth: he'll easily outstrip either Figo or Amoros. He's probably quicker than Carlos too for that matter. Anyway, it's a moot argument. If Amoros has the ball, we shift across. That's how football works. Iniesta slides along from his withdrawn inside-left position, Zico sits into the hole to stop the easy square ball, Finney drops in and stops anything across the park.

Amoros and Figo are quite fast and I know Facchetti was also but the difference won't be that much. He can't cover both. If Amoros has the ball and looks for Figo when Facchetti is off his zone Figo will outrun Iniesta or Zico 10 times out of 10. Both are not as fast as Figo off the ball.

Explosive? Look at those legs, those are the thighs of an explosive footballer. He was squat, muscular, dynamic and quick off the mark. That's just his physical qualities, never mind his considerable defensive talents. He's a great fit for the job in hand here.

Henry is one of the fastest forwards in the game. Look at the video above and how far is off the ball compared to Nesta to get in there first. Chumpitaz is fast but no match for Henry. Also let's not make mistake, Cruyff is superior player than both Nesta and Chumpitaz, he's the best player on the pitch.

 

[Gio]

I don't think Bozsik will work in Barca type of formation(Gerson for that matter as well) and Iniesta was balanced midfielder at Barca but in this case in different formation and style I doubt the same pressing role will work as Souness and Bozsik are totally different to his Barca mates.

Firstly, I'm not sure where this 'Barca type of formation' comes from. Secondly, Bozsik is playing right-half, the same position he played for the Magyars. He excelled in a 4-2-4. He'll be like a pig in shit with the options he has to connect with here.