It's widely accepted among Sunderland supporters that 'many' players went out and partied after Keane's resignation became public. What do you imagine the players would say after Keane resigned? 'Oh thank god that prick isn't here anymore, good riddance you fecking paddy'? I don't care about Sunderland, but I do love Keane and even I would be seeing his time with United tinted glasses. He did well and then he resigned after his position become untenable, both with the board and the players. When he left, I was like you, blamed it on Ellis Short and accused Niall Quinn for throwing him under the bus again. But that's alright, that's how we are supposed to view Roy Keane, he's a legend for the club and his shortcomings will be overlooked. But the way you go on about him in this thread as he's some managerial genius who is like a second son to Fergie is frankly laughable.
Clearing up some myths about Roy Keane
- Thread starter gav81
- Start date
It's widely accepted among Sunderland supporters that 'many' players went out and partied after Keane's resignation became public. What do you imagine the players would say after Keane resigned? 'Oh thank god that prick isn't here anymore, good riddance you fecking paddy'? I don't care about Sunderland, but I do love Keane and even I would be seeing his time with United tinted glasses. He did well and then he resigned after his position become untenable, both with the board and the players. When he left, I was like you, blamed it on Ellis Short and accused Niall Quinn for throwing him under the bus again. But that's alright, that's how we are supposed to view Roy Keane, he's a legend for the club and his shortcomings will be overlooked. But the way you go on about him in this thread as he's some managerial genius who is like a second son to Fergie is frankly laughable.
So basically manager Roy quits when questioned. Fantastic.
If a player did not like Keane I would expect them to say so or say nothing; I wouldn't expect them to come out in praise of him.
So that's it? I provide testimony straight from the horses mouths and a list of players who were demonstrably onboard with Keane until the end, and you come back with your opinion about what is 'widely accepted among Sunderland supporters'?
Who and/or where are these Sunderland supporters? Are you talking about some lads you know from the pub? The questions from my last post also stand: Which players had he lost? How many? What evidence is there for it? How does it compare to the list of players still with him? In addition: Who went out and partied? Again, how many?
Do you have anything?
The only reference to this I can find is one article in the Telegraph who have nothing in the way of a source or quotes to back it up. The same as you have nothing to support your statement it was, “plainly evident that he lost the players”. You are making hard work of this for something that is supposed to be, “plainly evident”.
I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and did some research for you, looking for supporters' views on a few Sunderland forums...
The first thread I came across from July 2016 discussed, “Would you ever have Roy Keane back as Head Coach at Sunderland?” By my quick count, Sunderland supporters who answerd “Yes” outnumbered those who answered “No” by around 2 to 1. There's quite a few threads like that asking for Ellis Short to 'bring Keane home' etc.
Here's one from 2014: a Roy Keane poll asking, do you like Roy Keane? 360 to 51 in favour.
But I'm trying to find where it is, “widely accepted among Sunderland supporters that 'many' players went out and partied after Keane's resignation”, but in the main what I'm finding is a lot of praise from Sunderland supporters for Keane. Here's another thread from 2011 with more positive comments.
It's interesting that Sunderland supporters appear to hold our most successful captain in higher esteem than we do.
Let's see what Niall Quinn said about Keane's departure: -
"I would like to pay thanks to Roy Keane for all his hard work in progressing this club, lifting its status and growing its worldwide profile.
"Roy deserves huge respect for his contribution and the manner in which he guided the club from the depths of the Championship back to the Premier League. His winning mentality and single-mindedness were just what this club needed when Drumaville took over shortly before his arrival.
"Roy's decision to stand aside and allow someone else to take charge of the next chapter sums up his desire to always do what is best for the club. Even in his departure he has been more concerned for the welfare of the players and his staff than himself.
"The board has reluctantly accepted his decision and wish him and his family well for the future."
"Roy deserves huge respect for his contribution and the manner in which he guided the club from the depths of the Championship back to the Premier League. His winning mentality and single-mindedness were just what this club needed when Drumaville took over shortly before his arrival.
"Roy's decision to stand aside and allow someone else to take charge of the next chapter sums up his desire to always do what is best for the club. Even in his departure he has been more concerned for the welfare of the players and his staff than himself.
"The board has reluctantly accepted his decision and wish him and his family well for the future."
And Keane himself: -
"I would like to thank my staff, players, Niall Quinn and in particular the fans for their support during my time at Sunderland, and I would like to wish the club every success in the future."
The evidence is that everything between Keane, Quinn, the players and supporters was quite amicable and remains so to the present day. I'm not sure why any United supporter would be interested in trying to paint something different. And if you can't back it up, maybe it is time to reconsider?
Oh, look, some more bolded quotes.
We'd have some team today if a 25 year old Roy Keane was playing for us.
I walked past Roy Keane this morning at Euston station at around 8.45, he looked terrifying and I was too terrified to say anything.
I don't know how to put this across to you, but when people give interviews to news outlet, they are more than likely to give praise to a departing manager. Let's look at the best case scenario for Keane. That it was all down to a backstabbing Yorke and Ellis Short, such a well loved and a talented manager who had the board, fans and the players at his side with the club's best interest at heart had to leave because of a middling 400 year old striker who wasn't scoring goals? Then he didn't have a lot of Ferguson's qualities that so obviously makes him a 'gold star prospect' for a future United manager. What is it? He's either the best thing since sliced bread for Sunderland who had everyone in his side against Ellis Short and Dwight Yorke or he faced a tremendous amount of problems and Ellis Short was the final straw.
And it's a bit offensive for you to say that somehow having this view makes me hold him in a lesser regard than a Sunderland fan. When Roy Keane signed for Sunderland, a lot of United fans signed up for Sunderland boards to watch how he did and in the first year, the Caf had unofficially decided Keane will take over when Fergie retired. Johnny Evans playing there helped as well and when he got them promoted, Sunderland's matches where we all looked up to, as soon as our match was over. We watched his career at Sunderland very closely to form a first hand opinion in stead of having to read obituary interviews where everyone says nice things about a departed manager to form a conclusion.
I love Roy Keane, he's my first idol at United. I loved him when he played well and loved him when he got unnecessary red cards. We all knew that we have to take the red mists with the power display of football. We loved his flaws as well as his strength. He will be a United legend no matter what, but there's no reason for me to say he's a good manager, much less a future United prospect and that doesn't make me have a lesser view of Keane. It's like saying Captain Marvel should be a future United manager and if you think he's not a good manager, then he's not praised enough. That's not being realistic, that's flat out absurd. This entire thread is a bit surreal and this is my last post on this thread. Good luck to you and let's agree to disagree. You have the right to your views.
Thanks @fishfingers15
You made two claims about Keane's departure from Sunderland which I have responded to: -
You made those claims without any evidence and failed to provide any when requested. You have not been able to answer a single question about the specifics of the claims or the reason for your belief in them. The claims are therefore entirely unfounded and more accurately described as slander or 'mud slinging'. I guess it's a good example of why I started this thread.
On the other hand I have provided plenty of evidence in the form of player testimony and facts which disputes the claims.
I don't understand why you would think your position is at all tenable - it isn't - and any reasonable person will see that. The same as you willfully disregard documented player testimony in preference for your opinion of what is the opinion of Sunderland supporters. Crazy - then you talk about what is "surreal"??
The only reason a thread based on logic, facts and evidence, which this one is, would seem surreal is due to a mindset overcome by the sensationalism and propaganda that surrounds Keane. Try to look with an open mind and you might see what is really there.
Excellent observational skills. Do you have any comment to make on content of the bolded quotes? Or the wider case I'm making? If so it would be great to hear. Though something tells me there's probably more substance in a single one of those bolded quotes than anything you have to offer. Let's see...
You made two claims about Keane's departure from Sunderland which I have responded to: -
- "it was plainly evident that he lost the players"
- "many players went out and partied after Keane's resignation"
You made those claims without any evidence and failed to provide any when requested. You have not been able to answer a single question about the specifics of the claims or the reason for your belief in them. The claims are therefore entirely unfounded and more accurately described as slander or 'mud slinging'. I guess it's a good example of why I started this thread.
On the other hand I have provided plenty of evidence in the form of player testimony and facts which disputes the claims.
I don't understand why you would think your position is at all tenable - it isn't - and any reasonable person will see that. The same as you willfully disregard documented player testimony in preference for your opinion of what is the opinion of Sunderland supporters. Crazy - then you talk about what is "surreal"??
The only reason a thread based on logic, facts and evidence, which this one is, would seem surreal is due to a mindset overcome by the sensationalism and propaganda that surrounds Keane. Try to look with an open mind and you might see what is really there.
Excellent observational skills. Do you have any comment to make on content of the bolded quotes? Or the wider case I'm making? If so it would be great to hear. Though something tells me there's probably more substance in a single one of those bolded quotes than anything you have to offer. Let's see...
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Yes. My comment is he shouldn't be our manager cause he didn't prove he's a good manager or a manager for a club like United. You can put 1000 quotes found wherever, that doesn't change that fact. Fact that Ferguson said some good things doesnt change that fact. Ferguson thought Moyes should be our manager. Fact Rio said something doesnt change it. Fact some Sunderland fans on some Sunderland forum want him back doesnt change it. Nor the fact some of his players spoke fond of him. What shoould have they said. He was horrible, hate him.
As @fishfingers15 this is one bizarre, surreal thread.
He hasn't proved he's a good, even a decent manager by any means.
That doesn't change the fact he was our playing legend.
But a manager. Nope.
Bye.
Ok, your opinion is Keane hasn't proven he is a good manager.
So the question would be, in your opinion, what would prove that Keane is a good manager?
We laugh about it but he comes across as a violent bully. Inspiring fear in people isn't a good thing.Have to admit he scares me too.
Brilliant player but a prick as a person based on what we've seen.
I never said that. Our seats in the Aviva are right by the the Irish bench so we are close to the management team and subs. All I'm saying is Keane has an aura unlike other footballers which is a bit scary. You know when he's around and you know you wouldn't mess with him.
The perception of Keane as a bully or inspiring fear isn't a concern because, as we saw in post #348, Ferguson was described as, “the biggest bully of his generation” and inspired fear in his players. It is another close comparison between the two men and a side effect of the type of highly driven character needed to impose their high standards on a dressing room.
What I will address is the accusation of violence. There are two early incidents as a player: -
The 1998 hotel fight with Schmeichel. It appeared to be six of one, half a dozen of the other between them which didn't appear to affect morale given it was the season Keane captained United to the treble winning season. I don't know, might we forgive Keane for a booze fuelled fight as a mid-20s lad? Schmeichel did and has even since backed Keane to succeed Ferguson as United manager.
The 2001 Haaland tackle. Another I'm not concerned about since Ferguson did the same in his playing career (post #216). Even Cantona did worse and more frequently than Keane, yet no one holds it against him. It's one of those things that many great players have that fire in them.
The 2001 Haaland tackle. Another I'm not concerned about since Ferguson did the same in his playing career (post #216). Even Cantona did worse and more frequently than Keane, yet no one holds it against him. It's one of those things that many great players have that fire in them.
Both incidents above were a long time ago. Keane is now into his mid-40s and has visibly calmed. So let's focus on incidents since he took up management, and again, there are only two I can think of: -
The 2008 incident with Reading backroom staff. Keane tells the only time he really lost his temper in management was with assistant manager Kevin Dillon. After the match Keane admits to pushing Dillon's head on a table and pulling his tie! But wait, Dillon had been calling Keane a “wanker”, having a go at him through the match and stood up to confront Keane during the post-match get together – he was asking for it and how many would show restraint under that provocation? I wouldn't - “Who are you calling a wanker?”
The 2010 bust up with Jon Walters at Ipswich. Basically, Walters accused Keane of lying about contact from Stoke over a potential transfer and both men have said there was pushing, shoving and some words exchanged. Let's see what Walters had to say of Keane a few years later: -
“I said a while back that if I was chairman, I'd give him a go as a manager because I was impressed with him at Ipswich. I really enjoyed how he was with people. I was captain there and enjoyed it but then I wanted to go to the Premier League and he wanted me to stay so it wasn't going to be all cuddles or anything. When we met up, we had a laugh about it.”
"He's a good manager, believe it or not. I liked the way he ran the dressing room. He could be over the top. But over the top to me? No. No one could get away with anything. If you put a foot out of line or did anything wrong, he would let you know."
The 2010 bust up with Jon Walters at Ipswich. Basically, Walters accused Keane of lying about contact from Stoke over a potential transfer and both men have said there was pushing, shoving and some words exchanged. Let's see what Walters had to say of Keane a few years later: -
“I said a while back that if I was chairman, I'd give him a go as a manager because I was impressed with him at Ipswich. I really enjoyed how he was with people. I was captain there and enjoyed it but then I wanted to go to the Premier League and he wanted me to stay so it wasn't going to be all cuddles or anything. When we met up, we had a laugh about it.”
"He's a good manager, believe it or not. I liked the way he ran the dressing room. He could be over the top. But over the top to me? No. No one could get away with anything. If you put a foot out of line or did anything wrong, he would let you know."
These are exactly the high standards that a world class, title winning team should live up to.
Those four occurrences above, from the first to the present day, are over a period of almost two decades in dealing with literally hundreds of players and staff. To say that makes Keane violent, due to those isolated incidents, as a general statement of his character, is nonsense.
Edit: One last thing I want to mention is the absolute lack of perspective when it comes to anything Roy Keane. I already mentioned comparisons to Ferguson and Cantona above but also take a look at the training ground fights and bust ups Zlatan has had with teammates or the many touchline scuffles between Premier League managers - off the top of my head, Hughes, Wenger, Pardew, Mancini, Mourinho, Pearson etc - none of which are ever held against them. There's a massive double-standard going on with Keano that needs to be put in perspective.
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The above is a post from the 'Origins of Our on Field Problems' thread I would like to respond to. So we were talking about a manager whose characteristics are close to Ferguson. It is a question I began thinking long and hard about a year ago, and I found the answer. How about a manager who worked under Ferguson and captained the team throughout the most successful years in the club's history: -
“When I look at Roy Keane I often see myself, I equate this to his passion, desire and striving for perfection. He cares. He's a born winner. He is the driving force, the inspiration, the best reader of the game, the best talker of the game, the biggest winner.”
~Alex Ferguson
“He was the most influential presence in the dressing room in the time we worked together. Roy took a lot of the onus off me in making sure the dressing room was operating at a high level of motivation.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Absolutely no doubt about that. If he wants to do it he'll be an absolutely brilliant manager.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Roy has the wherewithall to be a top class manager. Some people can’t make decisions. Roy can. He is a good decision maker. I spoke to him several times about being a manager and when he started to take his coaching badges I felt he was doing things in the right way.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Me and Alex Ferguson, we had the same type of traits, of what Manchester United was about. I think that probably created the problems towards the end.”
~Roy Keane
“Keaney, just similar to the manager in his desire and hunger.”
~Ryan Giggs
“Ferguson and Keane are kindred spirits, and what he saw in Keane, I think was something he had in himself, which was his hunger, his appetite, his complete and utter single-minded desire to win.”
~Andrew Longmore, Senior Sports Writer, Sunday Times
~Alex Ferguson
“He was the most influential presence in the dressing room in the time we worked together. Roy took a lot of the onus off me in making sure the dressing room was operating at a high level of motivation.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Absolutely no doubt about that. If he wants to do it he'll be an absolutely brilliant manager.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Roy has the wherewithall to be a top class manager. Some people can’t make decisions. Roy can. He is a good decision maker. I spoke to him several times about being a manager and when he started to take his coaching badges I felt he was doing things in the right way.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Me and Alex Ferguson, we had the same type of traits, of what Manchester United was about. I think that probably created the problems towards the end.”
~Roy Keane
“Keaney, just similar to the manager in his desire and hunger.”
~Ryan Giggs
“Ferguson and Keane are kindred spirits, and what he saw in Keane, I think was something he had in himself, which was his hunger, his appetite, his complete and utter single-minded desire to win.”
~Andrew Longmore, Senior Sports Writer, Sunday Times
The above are only endorsements of the similarity between Ferguson and Keane. When we look in more detail and break down the specific set of characteristics which made Ferguson great, the match Keane provides is absolutely astounding and you can read a list of traits and evidence, including positive attacking football and motivational ability, in post #104 here.
There are even similarities in the flaws of Ferguson and Keane which have been described in this thread. But for now here are a few endorsements of Keane's suitability for the role: -
“It is important that (Ferguson's successor) is somebody who knows how the club works, he needs to be very strong mentally and a strong person and Roy Keane is one of those.”
~Eric Cantona
“To be Man United manager you need broad shoulders and take a lot of criticism. Roy has broad shoulders and he is mentally tough. Things don’t affect him. He has a poker face, doesn’t show if things are affecting him, and there is no reason why Roy couldn’t go back to Manchester United (as manager).”
~Paul Ince
~Eric Cantona
“To be Man United manager you need broad shoulders and take a lot of criticism. Roy has broad shoulders and he is mentally tough. Things don’t affect him. He has a poker face, doesn’t show if things are affecting him, and there is no reason why Roy couldn’t go back to Manchester United (as manager).”
~Paul Ince
“It would make sense to talk to Sir Alex and say 'we don't want you to retire but let's do a plan here and bring your successor in'. The successor could work with him for a year or even five years. That would bring continuity. I would think Mark Hughes or Roy Keane would be right.”
~Peter Schmeichel
~Peter Schmeichel
He is the only manager able to continue the United philosophy in Ferguson's footsteps.
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Well, why the hell not? Once Mourinho inevitably fails, what are our options?
Not entirely serious.
Not entirely serious.
This is a weak argument. Someone said some mean things so Keane was justified in laying hands on him.
Keane was a world class footballer, and I love his books, they're great. The guy is a bit of a dick though.
Even that isnt relevant. The issue is his managerial track record isnt good enough. Two people having similar personalities does not mean they will be equally good at a certain job. And if we're wheeling out endorsements from football's gliteratti, Giggs can at least match Keano. The problem is, as soon as someone says a prospective manager needs to "know the club inside out" it is clear they are talking out their arse.
For what it's worth, I do think his tenure at Sunderland is a little underrated and marred by the capitulation he had there. I'm assuming the personality he's similar to you're referring to is Ferguson, but I always viewed Ferguson as less psychotic. I don't think Keane (unless he mellows out greatly) could ever really be a manager of any great accord, you need a manager who can use the carrot and the stick and Keane would be too busy punching the physio for telling a knock knock joke.
I would love for Roy Keane or a Ryan Giggs or Neville or someone from our own to be our manager. I am a football romantic and think football without romance is a very weird concept. The compromise needs to be right though and I simply think you are underestimating Fergie if you think he achieved what he did because he was a tough strong willy Scotsman. Fergie might not have been a brilliant tactician but when it comes to man management, ability to delegate and surround himself with top talent like the best CEOs, ability to be several steps ahead and plan for the future with a perfect immaculate vision, understanding of how to deal with different backgrounds and cultural shifts as the PL moved on from its insularity, the man was beyond extraordinary. It literally defies belief how he got all of these things right more often than not over such a long period of time. Another thing that helped Fergie to no end is the aura he developed around himself and our club. He and us by extension, became an intimidating figure and a big reason for that is the achievements of the '90s which would have never happened in modern times because he most likely would have been sacked long before. Plainly speaking, Roy Keane does not possess any of those qualities in my view. He is rash, hot headed, does not display any capabilities in terms of vision, planning or man management. I am reminded of a quote from Fergie's book about Roy Keane when manager of Sunderland when he spoke about how he felt Roy was more interested in buying players than improving what he has through tactics, man management or whatever other method. That's what I think Roy Keane is, a typical British manager no different to Pulis, Allardyce or Pardew without the experience, level headedness or tact it takes to manage owners, board, directors, staff and a multi-cultural dressing room.
Well indeed, in future why the hell not? The managerial pool is not so large and no matter anything else, Keane could not fail worse than Moyes, van Gaal and Mourinho's start – which have all been frankly awful. And if we lose under Keane, at least it would be giving everything and going down with a fight. Then again, it brought the most successful period in the club's history so we could always win with that style too.
I don't know, I'm having a bit of a moral debate about whether it is justifiable to lay your hands on an antagonist continually calling you a “wanker”. I would say it is a justifiable comeuppance though not ideal or what we would want from a United manager. We can take solace in the fact Mourinho has been a huge dick in the past, from his eye gouge on Vilanova to allegations of assaulting children, fans and reporters, and that both him and Keane have matured and would be unlikely to repeat their mistakes.
@gav81 I'm with you. Would love to see Keano as our manager. It ain't gonna happen though.
Obviously what you have said above is tongue in cheek but that's exactly it – Keane has mellowed out greatly and the 'carrot and stick' is his approach: -
“I remember when Diego Forlán came in, and it wasn’t quite happening for him. If a player tried – and Diego did – we’d drag him with us; we’d try and help him. Plenty of praise in training, or during games; not getting on his back. Diego was honest, so in training you’d go, ‘Unlucky; it’ll come good tomorrow’, not ‘You can do feckin’ better than that.’”
~Roy Keane
“He inspired me to go away in the summer and come back in better shape than I had ever been in. I went and played very well the following season. He gave me some strong words of encouragement to go and do that and I will always appreciate it.”
~Kieren Richardson, Sunderland
“And, much as he could really dish it out, he was always very quick to praise you when you did well.”
~Jack Colback, Sunderland/Ipswich
“If you work hard, he praises you. If you don't, you get criticised. He's a fairer man than people give him credit for.”
~Daryl Murphy, Sunderland/Ipswich
“Yes, we get the hairdryer from time to time but only when we really deserve it. He tells it like it is but certainly doesn’t rant and rave just for the sake of it.”
~David Norris, Ipswich
“Every time I'm around the squad, he's flooded me with confidence and he's one of the main reasons for my success. So I thank Roy for all his help”
~Jack Grealish, Aston Villa
“I think when he first came in everyone was a little bit on edge as you would be with Roy Keane. But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”
~Jack Colback, Sunderland/Ipswich
“If you work hard, he praises you. If you don't, you get criticised. He's a fairer man than people give him credit for.”
~Daryl Murphy, Sunderland/Ipswich
“Yes, we get the hairdryer from time to time but only when we really deserve it. He tells it like it is but certainly doesn’t rant and rave just for the sake of it.”
~David Norris, Ipswich
“Every time I'm around the squad, he's flooded me with confidence and he's one of the main reasons for my success. So I thank Roy for all his help”
~Jack Grealish, Aston Villa
“I think when he first came in everyone was a little bit on edge as you would be with Roy Keane. But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”
~Seamus Coleman, Republic of Ireland
“He definitely comes across as being a little bit scarier on TV than he is in real life. Of course he doesn't come in singing and dancing in the morning! But he is a friendly man to speak to and very helpful if you have any questions.”
~Eunan O'Kane, Republic of Ireland
“Hopefully the players are in for a pleasant surprise, particularly the lads who've not worked with me. I know people can believe what they hear and read and, if they're thinking for some reason that some monster's going to turn up and, all of a sudden, I'm quite placid and nice to them...”
~Roy Keane on taking the Ireland job
~Roy Keane on taking the Ireland job
So don't believe all the sensationalist stories (Keane 'blasts'/'criticises' this and that) you read in the rags as it misses the whole other side to him that doesn't sell papers.
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I'm not much of a romantic. If I was then I'd like to see the legend that is Ryan Giggs takeover one day. But no, he does not have that aura of a Ferguson or Keane.
Anyhow, I think you would need to read this thread and especially the post linked here which breaks down Ferguson's characteristics and evidence of how Keane compares before we can discuss this more seriously. Because nowhere have I suggested Fergie achieved what he did because he was a “tough strong willy Scotsman”. I have gone into much more depth and detail than that.
Also I think you may be romanticising Ferguson in the way you suggest his ability to 'deal with different backgrounds and cultural shifts literally defies belief'. I mean, I've never heard such nonsense. Here is Ronaldo's recollection of Ferguson's method: -
“I remember sometimes when we do something bad or we lost some games he kicked the chairs and he kicked the boots, he kicked everything, the waters, the drinks. And he's so red and, 'feck you, you should pass the ball, you'...”
~Cristiano Ronaldo on Ferguson's anger
Jesus, Ferguson gave Gary Neville sleepless nights and he was one of the local lads.
I think what Ferguson actually showed is that fear and respect in equal measure are applicable motivators across any culture.
And heck, Keane is mates with Forlan, and he's from Uruguay.
Agreed about Ferguson's aura and intimidation of opponents and I think that is something Keane also provided to United during his time at the club and could bring back in management as the figurehead of the team.
About Keane's man-management - you can see evidence of this in the form of player testimony in my previous post above, the link in this post above and throughout this thread - plenty of evidence for it despite what the media would have us believe.
For Keane's vision, planning and the comments made by Ferguson in his book, I think Keane has demonstrated all in his overhaul of the Sunderland squad and his promotion of youth. Ferguson's comments about buying players were disingenuous from a manager who broke the British transfer record three times and you can read the real reason behind it in post #4 here.
Noted you have shifted from requesting a candidate simply who could provide high octane, positive attacking football and motivational ability, a la Ferguson, to now adding management of club owners, the board, directors and staff to the equation. Fortunately Keane has 10 years managerial experience at club and international level where he has proven quite capable. Name a club owner, board member, director or member of staff that Keane has fallen out with...
Ok there was John Magnier and that race horse... no sorry, wrong person... I mean that physio, Eva Carneiro... no wait, damnit... it was Ellis Short where Keane walked away before it even created a situation.
Thanks, Rory. I actually think there are more supporters onboard with this than the Caf would suggest. My experience of speaking with people in person has been more positive and on another United message board about a third of those who responded backed Keane as manager/assistant manager. I honestly think if the club held a referendum 'should Keane be brought back in a coaching role?' then the majority of supporters would go for it.
Why do you say it ain't gonna happen? The pool of qualified managers to select from really isn't large and if Mourinho doesn't work out...
There were reports that van Gaal wanted Keane as his assistant (e.g. here) but the talk is that the board chose Giggs to stay on instead. There were also reports that Keane was there on the shortlist this time around along with Mourinho. And make no doubt about it, Keane could be back in club management now if he wanted, offers have come from Celtic, Newcastle and the Turkish top division, but he is waiting for the right offer, the right club to leave Ireland.
I think his appointment is much more realistic than some believe and in the foreseeable future too. I'd even go one better and say that if Keane keeps on his current track it will be almost inevitable.
In reference to Ferguson´s temper, he somewhat picked and chose his bollockings based on the player. He wouldn´t talk shite to Cantona, ever, nor from what I understand, to Keane either. Seemed to give Robson a long leash for his drinking habits as well, in comparison to others. This is understandable, and has a lot to do with "man management."
I think Keane knows this, and with a bit more maturation, would be a great manager for United, perhaps just what is needed. I´m sure he would never show up to Lee Sharpe´s house and read him a wild eyed riot act, nor bully him after a hat trick. He´d also have the aura and balls to sit Rooney, and would demand a thorough work rate. And you can be sure he´d never pull off something so weasely as this:
Genuinely confused here... You state it was a myth that the M.U.T.V. interview was a cause for his dismissal, then at the end of your post you state it was!??
Yes sorry, I didn't structure it very well. The point I was trying to make is that Keane wasn't pushed out the door for criticising his team mates, he was pushed out the door for tearing into Ferguson and Quieroz in the meeting that followed. I'm going to go back and edit the post to make it clearer. Thank you.
I think the thing that will work against him is he will most likely go to another club soon and, no matter who that club is, it will end up like Hughes, Bruce and all the rest. I also think Fergie wouldn't allow it. As I say id love it but can't see him ever managing at United. The only possible way is if a manager insists on putting him on the coaching staff and he then inherits the job. Even then it's highly unlikely.
Some success as a manager other than promoting Sunderland. I mean why is he better then lets say Bruce, Hughes, Ince..
Quotes are not enough. There are a lot of quotes about Giggs knowing the club, knowing the tradition, ex teammates and Fergie bigging him up for United joy. Yet would you say he should be an United manager?
Fact he's similar to Fergie, character and all, shouldn't be enough too.
He should have proven he has the whole package as a manager, man management and success but he hasn't proven that.
And United right now needs only the best. No room for romanticism imo.
Too much romanticism has been a problem.
Would be fun though, I'd definately enjoy it.
I think he was a fabulous player for United. Not sure he was such a fabulous person off the pitch and that includes his captaincy duties at United and his managerial career. I reckon it was wrong to slate his fellow players on M.U.T.V. The fact it was pulled is irrelevant, the players obviously knew about it and it understandably caused friction in the dressing room. Not what Fergie would want and it went against his own policy of not publicly criticising the players. Not to mention undermining his own authority.
The other bit about him booking his own hotel room and not agreeing with the training methods is hardly likely to help with team bonding and morale. Surely that should be part of the captains role? As we all know he went on to repeat this with the R.O.I. in the world cup. As for the quotes that support him in your posts, bet it would be just easy to find criticism of his managerial style and insert those.
Yes, a playing legend at Old Trafford, and rightly so. Not such a legend off the pitch.
The other bit about him booking his own hotel room and not agreeing with the training methods is hardly likely to help with team bonding and morale. Surely that should be part of the captains role? As we all know he went on to repeat this with the R.O.I. in the world cup. As for the quotes that support him in your posts, bet it would be just easy to find criticism of his managerial style and insert those.
Yes, a playing legend at Old Trafford, and rightly so. Not such a legend off the pitch.
I'm not sure what other club Keane would go to. It seems he would prefer a club within commuting distance of Manchester where his family are based. He turned down Newcastle on the basis of his loyalty to Sunderland and so Middlesbrough would likely be the same. He's not going to go to Liverpool or City (see what he said about Hughes taking the City job, haha). Everton have Koeman. Hull, Burnley or a return to Sunderland are a big risk of relegation with weak squads. It's interesting you mention Hughes as his job is on the line at Stoke and that could be an ideal club for Keane, except the problem is, realistically it would be a miracle for a club like Stoke to finish any higher than 7th-8th which might not get Keane any recognition. There's the Celtic job which I know Keane has been at least interested in but then a manager can win the title there every season and receive no great accolades.
I think he might be just as well staying at Ireland until after Russia 2018 and then seeing what the United manager situation is. You know, Conte went straight from Italy to Chelsea, so why can't Keane go straight from Ireland to United? I know Conte won Serie A with Juventus prior to that, but that's the chance Keane has not yet had. Which reminds me....
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So can you confirm that you would not have given Antonio Conte the job at Juventus where he won three consecutive Serie A titles because, prior to that, he hadn't done anything except win promotion from Serie B?
Also please confirm you would not have given the Dortmund job to Klopp, since all he did prior was win promotion from the German second division?
Can you confirm you wouldn't have given the Espanyol job to Pochettino and, since he left them bottom of La Liga, definitely not given him the Southampton job?
And can you confirm you wouldn't have given the Ajax job to de Boer where he won four consecutive league titles or the Madrid job to Zidane where he won the Champions League because neither had achieved anything prior to that?
On the same basis you are judging Keane, please confirm none of the managers above are good enough to be where they are today. And if you are not prepared to do that, please realise that Keane now is in as good a position, if not better, than any of them before they were handed top jobs.
And after all that can you confirm that managers who have achieved great success in the game, like Louis van Gaal, who won the league and cup in three different countries, won the UEFA Cup, Champions League and placed third in the World Cup, can you confirm that meant anything when he rolled up at United?
The fact is, records mean feck all as to a managers suitability for a club. There are much deeper and more significant considerations to be made.
Were you around when Keane played and captained United? If so you would know that he was far and away the biggest driving force of our team (not only physically but mentally) compared to a Bruce, Hughes, Ince or Giggs. Even if you weren't around to witness it, read the quotes here which spell it out from his teammates and manager.
The difference is, you will not find the same level of testimony, not anywhere close, for a Bruce, Hughes, Ince or Giggs, in either their influence or likeness to Ferguson, as exists for Keane. Keane was and is simply a level above in those qualities.
Ferguson and Keane both have stated their likeness to one another and it checks out in every department – you won't find that with anyone else.
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It didn't cause friction in the dressing room. Well, not until Ferguson and Quieroz decided to hang Keane out to dry at the players meeting about the interview. But look at those Keane criticised in the interview: van der Sar, O'Shea, Ferdinand, Fletcher, Richardson and Alan Smith. Let's see what those same individuals later said about Keane....
“Roy was always wanting the best and he’d always look out for me. He only wanted the players to improve all of the time. He's a winner and he wanted to be the best.
“It was an absolute pleasure to play alongside him and be in the dressing room with Roy.”
~John O'Shea
“On my first day of training, he (Keane) gave me an absolute rollocking for playing an easy square ball instead of looking to do something positive. I saw that day why United were winners and why Roy was at the heart of it.
“I still think it was sad the way he left Old Trafford - but he was a tremendous influence on me while he was there.”
~Rio Ferdinand
“Roy was probably the biggest influence on my career.
“He would come down hard on me if I ever did anything wrong but he made me realise what it meant to be a Manchester United player. I can remember coming in from training one day and checking my mobile phone for text messages. Well, that was it. He absolutely hammered me, all the way into the gym.
“He was a great influence, really. If Roy had a go at you, he did it because he cared.
“He was the best captain you could wish for. He would tear you to shreds on the pitch if you gave away the ball, ‘get your effing touch right, effing this, effing that’ but, as soon as you got into the dressing room, it was over.
“He was a winner. I’ve met dedicated professionals but he had something else.”
~Darren Fletcher
“He inspired me to go away in the summer and come back in better shape than I had ever been in. I went and played very well the following season.
“He gave me some strong words of encouragement to go and do that and I will always appreciate it.
“A lot of people don’t know him on a personal level but he definitely has that side to him.”
~Kieran Richardson (who went on to play under Keane at Sunderland)
“I think everyone knows where it [the inspiration] has come from, we accept criticism when it comes and rightly so. A club like Manchester United shouldn't be getting beat, and getting beat well off Middlesbrough, we are better than that and I think that showed.
“It's not just Roy, he's a proud person. He told us exactly what he said. All speculation about it in the papers was rubbish, and I think from the manager to all the players we went out there today and put in a good performance.”
~Alan Smith following 1-0 victory vs Chelsea (first Premier League game after Keane interview)
So, rather than a negative effect on those individuals, all any of them later talk about is the positive influence and inspiration Keane provided them. Which suggests to me that none were too hurt by Roy's interview. I only can't find a useful quote from van der Sar though he admits himself, “I didn't play my best game with that one”, in reference to the Middlesbrough game which prompted Keane's criticism, so perhaps it was not too unjustified.“It was an absolute pleasure to play alongside him and be in the dressing room with Roy.”
~John O'Shea
“On my first day of training, he (Keane) gave me an absolute rollocking for playing an easy square ball instead of looking to do something positive. I saw that day why United were winners and why Roy was at the heart of it.
“I still think it was sad the way he left Old Trafford - but he was a tremendous influence on me while he was there.”
~Rio Ferdinand
“Roy was probably the biggest influence on my career.
“He would come down hard on me if I ever did anything wrong but he made me realise what it meant to be a Manchester United player. I can remember coming in from training one day and checking my mobile phone for text messages. Well, that was it. He absolutely hammered me, all the way into the gym.
“He was a great influence, really. If Roy had a go at you, he did it because he cared.
“He was the best captain you could wish for. He would tear you to shreds on the pitch if you gave away the ball, ‘get your effing touch right, effing this, effing that’ but, as soon as you got into the dressing room, it was over.
“He was a winner. I’ve met dedicated professionals but he had something else.”
~Darren Fletcher
“He inspired me to go away in the summer and come back in better shape than I had ever been in. I went and played very well the following season.
“He gave me some strong words of encouragement to go and do that and I will always appreciate it.
“A lot of people don’t know him on a personal level but he definitely has that side to him.”
~Kieran Richardson (who went on to play under Keane at Sunderland)
“I think everyone knows where it [the inspiration] has come from, we accept criticism when it comes and rightly so. A club like Manchester United shouldn't be getting beat, and getting beat well off Middlesbrough, we are better than that and I think that showed.
“It's not just Roy, he's a proud person. He told us exactly what he said. All speculation about it in the papers was rubbish, and I think from the manager to all the players we went out there today and put in a good performance.”
~Alan Smith following 1-0 victory vs Chelsea (first Premier League game after Keane interview)
No, that's the thing, the criticisms of Keane are very limited within the full body of testimony. It's just that we hear the negative regurgitated and amplified again and again because it makes for a good story. Whereas the overwhelming positives are not so widely reported because they don't make for such a sensationalist headline which attracts readers.
You know, which headline are you more likely to pick up: -
“Smith praises Keane inspiration”
Or: -
“Keane's X-rated television rant that tore Manchester United to bits”
There's no contest for a journalist, truth be damned.
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All the quotes in the world won't change what we all know of Roy Keane. We had him here for years and a lot have closely followed him throughout his managerial career so most know or have a good idea of what he is like.
I respect his opinions on football and still admire him for what he gave on the pitch. Lets not try and brainwash people into thinking he is a clone of Ferguson though.
Anger or bullying whatever you want to call it was one of SAF many different faces. He was smart in that he knew when to use it as a tool to get the best out of people. Keane on the other hand seems to be angry or on the edge of it constantly. As a manager that just doesn't work. Molly coddled players these days won't want to play for him. From my experience his people skills are piss poor so find it hard to believe he has what it takes to get the best out of 25 players.
The points about him showing what he can do with Ireland and comparing him with Conte seem a bit pointless as well since as far as i'm aware he isn't actually the manager.
I also don't think many chairmen unless Irish will want to work with him either. Lets be honest if you had a choice of two managers of Keane's standard would you take him knowing how difficult and volatile he can be?
I respect his opinions on football and still admire him for what he gave on the pitch. Lets not try and brainwash people into thinking he is a clone of Ferguson though.
Anger or bullying whatever you want to call it was one of SAF many different faces. He was smart in that he knew when to use it as a tool to get the best out of people. Keane on the other hand seems to be angry or on the edge of it constantly. As a manager that just doesn't work. Molly coddled players these days won't want to play for him. From my experience his people skills are piss poor so find it hard to believe he has what it takes to get the best out of 25 players.
The points about him showing what he can do with Ireland and comparing him with Conte seem a bit pointless as well since as far as i'm aware he isn't actually the manager.
I also don't think many chairmen unless Irish will want to work with him either. Lets be honest if you had a choice of two managers of Keane's standard would you take him knowing how difficult and volatile he can be?
Its pretty sad that his achievements at Sunderland count for nothing. Goes to show how much the championship is devalued in England. The job Keano did in bringing Sunderland up was remarkable.
@MarkC sorry, who has said Keane can be difficult and volatile or constantly on the edge of anger in his management career?
It's just, what I am hearing is all this: -
The words they are using to describe Keane are, “calm”, “brilliant at taking the pressure off”, “nice”, “positive”, “going to be missed”, “nothing but thanks”, “fine to talk to”, “there for advice”, “friendly”, “very helpful”. These are the people who know Keane best having worked with him everyday. What they are consistently saying is that people have got the wrong idea about Roy due to unfair media coverage.
So please explain why you think Keane has been “difficult and volatile” in his management career?
I'm making the distinction between management/playing career because obviously there is a transition in maturity that occurs with age. I think that is a part of the problem with peoples' perception, apart from the ever sensationalist media, they still see Keane as that player, screaming and with veins bulging who chased down Andy D'Urso. When the reality is Keane is now a more calm, relaxed and mature mid-40s man. It is apparent in his interviews if you ever see them - the honesty of his opinion hasn't changed but his demeanor and laid back attitude show a different Keane.
It's just, what I am hearing is all this: -
“People have got entirely the wrong idea about the gaffer. They remember him as a player, when he was all about winning, and they automatically think he must be a bit of a madman in the dressing room.
“I wish I could take some of our fans in there because they would be amazed at how he really is. Yes, we get the hairdryer from time to time but only when we really deserve it. He tells it like it is but certainly doesn’t rant and rave just for the sake of it.
“He is actually quite calm most of the time and he is brilliant at taking the pressure off the players.”
~David Norris, Ipswich
“I have a lot of respect for our old boss Roy. He was a nice man. He had a positive impact on every player at the club, he had an aura about him - he's Roy Keane! Someone like that is always going to be missed.”
~Grant Leadbitter, Sunderland
"The guy was great for me and great for everyone at the football club. So for me this is all absolute nonsense what has been written about him, absolute nonsense. There wasn’t even any bad words on anything and that is the disappointing thing. To use the word 'poisonous' as a headline is shocking.
You can ask any member of staff what they thought of him. He has got a lot of commitments following the Irish national team so I have got nothing but thanks to Roy for coming in.”
~Paul Lambert, Aston Villa
“I think you see a different side to Roy than we do. I think when he first came in everyone was a little bit on edge as you would be with Roy Keane. But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”
Seamus Coleman, Ireland
"I think Roy’s reputation in the media proceeds [sic] him slightly. He definitely comes across as being a little bit scarier on TV than he is in real life.
"Of course he doesn't come in singing and dancing in the morning! But he is a friendly man to speak to and very helpful if you have any questions."
~Eunan O'Kane, Ireland
“Of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits. How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don't.”
~Roy Keane
“I wish I could take some of our fans in there because they would be amazed at how he really is. Yes, we get the hairdryer from time to time but only when we really deserve it. He tells it like it is but certainly doesn’t rant and rave just for the sake of it.
“He is actually quite calm most of the time and he is brilliant at taking the pressure off the players.”
~David Norris, Ipswich
“I have a lot of respect for our old boss Roy. He was a nice man. He had a positive impact on every player at the club, he had an aura about him - he's Roy Keane! Someone like that is always going to be missed.”
~Grant Leadbitter, Sunderland
"The guy was great for me and great for everyone at the football club. So for me this is all absolute nonsense what has been written about him, absolute nonsense. There wasn’t even any bad words on anything and that is the disappointing thing. To use the word 'poisonous' as a headline is shocking.
You can ask any member of staff what they thought of him. He has got a lot of commitments following the Irish national team so I have got nothing but thanks to Roy for coming in.”
~Paul Lambert, Aston Villa
“I think you see a different side to Roy than we do. I think when he first came in everyone was a little bit on edge as you would be with Roy Keane. But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”
Seamus Coleman, Ireland
"I think Roy’s reputation in the media proceeds [sic] him slightly. He definitely comes across as being a little bit scarier on TV than he is in real life.
"Of course he doesn't come in singing and dancing in the morning! But he is a friendly man to speak to and very helpful if you have any questions."
~Eunan O'Kane, Ireland
“Of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits. How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don't.”
~Roy Keane
The words they are using to describe Keane are, “calm”, “brilliant at taking the pressure off”, “nice”, “positive”, “going to be missed”, “nothing but thanks”, “fine to talk to”, “there for advice”, “friendly”, “very helpful”. These are the people who know Keane best having worked with him everyday. What they are consistently saying is that people have got the wrong idea about Roy due to unfair media coverage.
So please explain why you think Keane has been “difficult and volatile” in his management career?
I'm making the distinction between management/playing career because obviously there is a transition in maturity that occurs with age. I think that is a part of the problem with peoples' perception, apart from the ever sensationalist media, they still see Keane as that player, screaming and with veins bulging who chased down Andy D'Urso. When the reality is Keane is now a more calm, relaxed and mature mid-40s man. It is apparent in his interviews if you ever see them - the honesty of his opinion hasn't changed but his demeanor and laid back attitude show a different Keane.
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Less remarkable than feats accomplished by men like Paul Lambert and Nigel Adkins.