The reasons for Trump were also the reasons for Brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/donald-trump-brexit-us
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/donald-trump-brexit-us
Trump and Brexit: What has happened to the world?
- Thread starter sullydnl
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Indeed, but this surge to the right can't only be a result of people suffering hardships and then voting for the snake oils salesman that promises riches and prosperity. Imo, the left has had a bit of an identity crisis coupled with a unhealthy rhetoric and quite insufferable attitude towards "the plebian masses".
Well, now the "plebian masses" has turned up and voted and these are the results. As with the election as well as Brexit, it's simply impossible that everyone who cast their vote for exit/Trump is a closet [homophobe/racist/misogynist] and/or a moron so i think its safe to say that a lot of "regular" people don't really feel the left is speaking for them any longer.
Now of course, the fact that people on the lower rungs of society tends to vote far right (on parties that don't benefit them AT ALL) is ironic to say the least, but as far as i am concerned, the parties on the left has a job to do her on their own, and needs to make sure they appeal to these people again.
Things like the environment and social equality for all are indeed noble goals, but Cleetus from Bumfeck Arizona does not care about that as long as he is working three jobs and eating roadkill raccoon for lunch. Much more tempting to follow the conman promising wealth and glory
In terms of what a nation should aspire to achieve, priorities don't get much more important than trying to give every citizen an equal opportunity in life and to not permanently destroy the environment while you're at it.
I get that these issues aren't clarion calls to people who've been fecked over by life but it's a shitty state of affairs when a nation chooses instead to believe in a tissue of lies fed to them by shysters whose main priority is personal power and glory. And when they make that choice they deserve all the scorn they get. All the more so if they're stupid enough to think that giving two fingers to "SJW's" they argue with on the internet is reason enough to give such an odious scumbag the nuclear codes.
cheers for this, interesting and scary read.
I completely agree, and it IS infuriating not to mention confusing that these people can't see past the empty rhetoric and lies they are getting fed, but at the same time the left needs a change in attitude and character if they want to turn these people back. They need to feel they are being heard, not sneering contempt and gritted teeth
Anyways, sooner rather than later even Cletus WILL find out that it was all smoke and mirrors and that Trump can not fix his life and he goes back to being angry and confused
Yeah. I started off thinking 'this is going to be a load of alarmist nonsense'...and was then given pause. Sobering stuff.
Yeah, Pyrrhic victories all around.
People woke up to the new world order.
I don't buy it. Their core policies, especially under Corbyn, are traditional left. Both sides recognise that lower earners are suffering. The right wing know it's not migration that's causing the misery but they still use it to win votes
I don't see how you wouldn't be moraly superior to people who blame migrants for all their ills
I agree with that. Post truth politics.
The madness of Trump supporters is that he's done everything he campaigns against, dodges taxes, uses illegal migrants, invests abroad. And hes also a member of the elite, inherrited hundreds of millions. But it doesn't matter
I think another way to look at this in terms of the left-right discussion is as a backlash against a largely left-driven campaign reaching back around 50 years now to cast doubt on and question the fundamental myths which are the backbone of nationalism in the West (and everywhere else for that matter). This campaign has mostly been driven by uncovering uncomfortable truths and a desire to atone for past sins such as the real legacy of colonialism, but there has been an element of it that is perceived by the right to demand they surrender their identity, or at least apologise for it, while at the same time they're expected to tolerate and even celebrate the mythology surrounding often newly imported national cultures. Whatever the right and wrongs of all this, nationalism requires the maintenance of certain myths to sustain itself, and Brexit and Trump, and what seems likely to follow in the rest of Europe, is an indication that a major portion of the West is standing up and saying that they won't be the first to abandon their national identity, especially given the obvious reluctance of places such as Russia, China, India, Turkey, Israel - basically the entire non-Western world - to abandon theirs.
Definitely not alarmist.
We are entering a bad phase. It will be unpleasant for those living through it, maybe even will unravel into being hellish and beyond imagination
It really doesnt matter if they're actually part of the establishment themselves Trump and Farage represent as close to a F.U as they have available.
If people dont feel like the current political class is serving them how can anyone be suprised that this is their reaction. Telling them this political establishment politician will be better isnt going to cut it. Even Bernie supporters on the other side of the political spectrum felt that.
I must say even as a Corbyn supporting leftie i find the reaction has been pathetic and sneering. Im not sure they care about the people who feel they had to vote trump as much as they do about their own ideals and world view. No wonder the world is increasingly divided.
If people dont feel like the current political class is serving them how can anyone be suprised that this is their reaction. Telling them this political establishment politician will be better isnt going to cut it. Even Bernie supporters on the other side of the political spectrum felt that.
I must say even as a Corbyn supporting leftie i find the reaction has been pathetic and sneering. Im not sure they care about the people who feel they had to vote trump as much as they do about their own ideals and world view. No wonder the world is increasingly divided.
Full quote here
feck me bang on the money
Not sure if it's been covered already but what's the caf opinion on the celebs that said they'd move to Canada or Spain if Trump won?
Cue lots of moving vans and applications for foreign citizenship - or lots of backtracking?
Cue lots of moving vans and applications for foreign citizenship - or lots of backtracking?
My opinion is that they are full of shit.
Maybe I'm stupid but what's bang on the money
They were so sure Hillary would win. Now that she hasn't.They should be deported ,especially Cher
They just sound v arrogant that they think anyone gives a feck about where they live. And of course they will back track they aren't ditching California to go and live in the cold. Gather them up and drop them off in the Yukon.
My observations are very simple:
- Obama didn't deliver the 'change' that people expected: African-American relations are low, Guantanamo is still open, the Economy hasn't rebounded in a way that people feel, Companies get away as much as before, no major tax legislation/simplification, Lobbyist still in WashingtonDC, $1b elections, etc.
- In a world where millenials have taken over and want 'instant' (Uber, Deliveroo, Facebook, Twitter, 24/7 news, etc) - Government seems painfully slow and incremental. Not addressing problems and tackling them head-on quickly (like Modi has in India re: making Rs 500+1000 notes non-legal tender overnight).
- When things go well (economicically) - like in the 1990s, 2000s, there is no 'uprising' or 'populist' movements (certainly as strong) - but you drain the financial stability and economic prosperity of a nation (or a trading bloc) and there will always be issues.
- Macro economic trends of manufacturing moving geographies to cheaper locations of the world, services too infact - the movement (outflow) of capital from these western countries to eastern ones - changes the balance of power. This affects people directly or (more realistically) indirectly.
- A lot of these countries (above) not actually playing by the global rules; Walmart can't just rock up and open a bunch of stores in China, India, Russia or S.Arabia - yet the west believe in the fantasy of a free economic world. One group that doesn't play by the rules, messes it up for all of them (could be banking where a bank over-leverages, or a football team spending more than income on players and constantly winning).
- Social integration issues: people feeling a lack of respect from people of other countries who fail to integrate, the strain on public services, the one-sidedness of the arrangement where the west opens up with open arms and other nations are closed and conservative. Magnified by economic downturn and therefore much more competition for their jobs by 'outsiders'.
- The Brexit group and Trump tapped into both left-wing and right-wing ideas and turned them into an appealing attempt to address some of the above. Even just outlining there was a problem at all, was enough for some.
[QUOTE="Member 5225, post: 20051762]
Appealed to their sense of nationalism and some sort of socialism you might say?
- The Brexit group and Trump tapped into both left-wing and right-wing ideas and turned them into an appealing attempt to address some of the above. Even just outlining there was a problem at all, was enough for some.
Appealed to their sense of nationalism and some sort of socialism you might say?
Fwiw, the same stuff was said when GW Bush beat Gore and afaik none left then either. When will they learn?
But the problem is he was fundamentally able to because he was working against an obstructionist, hostile Republican party who made it their mission to remove him from day one and who tried to block just about anything he did that they didn't completely agree with.
Well yes, I think people miss the point when they call Brexit/UKIP/Trump just pure 'hatred filled right-wing extremism' - I think they tap into socialist ideas too IMHO.
But he implemented Obamacare? Apologies am not utterly clued up on the American system. But did he even attempt any gun-control measures in the same vein? And why spend all your political capital on such a divisive ideological issue?
Oh I was making a reference to National Socialism.
He did. The house blocked him at almost every step.
He tried to do a lot of things including emergency unemployment that was also blocked.
I didn't realize how powerful the speaker of the house is until Obamas second term.
Very good post.
Western liberalism's discomfort with the 'myths' and 'prejudices' which bind communities together, and allegiance to deracinated affectations which awaken no echoes in the human heart, open an unbridgeable gulf between them and ordinary people. If they can't resort to economic bribery to win their support, as they have in the past, they have nothing in common with the 'masses' at all.
The shift in working class political support from left to right is likely to prove permanent.
um completely accurate? bullseye?
Wow, everyone has pretty much gone full godwin around here.
Has anyone considered that it wasn't Cleetus who voted? It appears the swing was the Obama voters who are definable not Cleetus.
Could they have voted for loftier goals like avoiding nuclear war and stopping killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims around Africa and the Middle East.
The very same Foreign Policy goals laid out about the next president.
Has anyone considered that it wasn't Cleetus who voted? It appears the swing was the Obama voters who are definable not Cleetus.
Could they have voted for loftier goals like avoiding nuclear war and stopping killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims around Africa and the Middle East.
The very same Foreign Policy goals laid out about the next president.
Yes, avoiding nuclear war and saving the lives of foreign Muslims were clearly the hot button topics that drove this campaign.
you bastardNo it isn't. Nothing is permanent in politics. That was Fukuyama's mistake.
Even the peak idealism of the 60s eventually begat Reagan and Thatcher, who in turn begat Clinton and Blair. We're merely at a particularly high and reckless right sided swing of the pendulum. It will inevitably swing left again at some point. The only question is when, and how much...(unless you're advocating some kind of forced permanent Nationalist state?...Like, I dunno, a thousand year Reich, or sommin?)
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Only if I can lead it. Heil Will has a nice ring to it!
By 'permanent' I meant for the next few election cycles. As you say, nothing is truly permanent in politics. People forget, or die, or their circumstances change. I'm sure even the corpse of communism will rise from the ashes of history to misrule once more.
The thing about the UK and the US is that both countries are first world nations which have always been (more or less) competently run.
I think a lot of people voted for the most jarring, anti-establishment option because they thought 'feck it, what's the worst that can happen in a country like this?'
It's part of the reason turn-outs are so low. There's a general feeling that individual votes don't matter and, the only time they do, is when you vote for something that undercuts the whole process. I'm not sure know how you can counteract that beyond better education.
I think a lot of people voted for the most jarring, anti-establishment option because they thought 'feck it, what's the worst that can happen in a country like this?'
It's part of the reason turn-outs are so low. There's a general feeling that individual votes don't matter and, the only time they do, is when you vote for something that undercuts the whole process. I'm not sure know how you can counteract that beyond better education.
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I think the death of the last great war generation actually has a lot to do with the current rise of far-right politics. So it'll probably take the death of the last Communist generation to see that re-emerge. So.. another 40/50 years?
That said, you'd hope that the far greater modern proliferation of historical media and data would safeguard against a total repeat.
this video nails it
As I just said in the Trump thread (this thread is probably a better place for it):
I still think people are failing to see the bigger picture here (globally).
People are hurting, they want change, they want instant change...
If B.Sanders had got the nomination, and/or J.Corbyn had followed his (publicised) instinct and gone against the 'establishment' properly and supported (and maybe eveb led) Brexit, then we'd be talking about the rising of the left.
The right (namely Farage and Trump) were in the right place at the right time and played a very smart game IMO. No point demonising them per se.
I still think people are failing to see the bigger picture here (globally).
People are hurting, they want change, they want instant change...
If B.Sanders had got the nomination, and/or J.Corbyn had followed his (publicised) instinct and gone against the 'establishment' properly and supported (and maybe eveb led) Brexit, then we'd be talking about the rising of the left.
The right (namely Farage and Trump) were in the right place at the right time and played a very smart game IMO. No point demonising them per se.