EDIT:
Not saying J cole's lyrics are the best but come on. Young Thug???
Last edited:
EDIT:
Not saying J cole's lyrics are the best but come on. Young Thug???
at the juxtaposition.I think it's become cool to label J Cole's music as insomnia curing. Never got that.
Fixed.
Yikes.
J. Cole is certainly overrated, he talks about (some) complex subjects but his lyrics aren't particularly complex themself.
I see nothing but factual statements here.
Bad and Boujee is the best rap song out right now and I am very happy Migos put the middling trap beats to one side and started rapping over great beats more consistently whilst ditching the triplet flow. I think that 2 month period they spent with Young Thug recording Migos Thuggin' (unreleased thank to Lyor) last year helped them in terms of spacing and pacing their rhymes as well as beat selection. Some really good stuff coming from them now but Lyor won't let them release an album.
Also honourable mention to *** Way:
Much love to Quavo's hook on Good Drank too:
Crazy how everyone decries Atlanta every year and say their time is up but they still manage to be the epicenter of rap music and arguably pop culture itself (see: dabbing, hit dem folks, mannequin challenge etc.). Also bonus Quavo:
Also honourable mention to *** Way:
Much love to Quavo's hook on Good Drank too:
Crazy how everyone decries Atlanta every year and say their time is up but they still manage to be the epicenter of rap music and arguably pop culture itself (see: dabbing, hit dem folks, mannequin challenge etc.). Also bonus Quavo:
Why are they not worthy of being deemed rappers?
The second statement is so used it's hard for me to take it seriously. What is the standard that J Cole is failing that the rest of the hip-hop world is passing with flying colors?
I'm not sure how many artists they've influenced at all right now to be honest, apart from Rich The Kids wack ass. Lil Uzi Vert is like a white indie version of Young Thug/Chief Keef. Lil Yachty is more in Soulja Boy/Lil B/Makkonen line of work. 21 Savage is the atypical straight up and down Atlanta street rapper and although I like Savage Mode it troubles me how much he sounds like Bankroll Fresh and how he's best friends with Bankroll Fresh's killer. I think Kodak Black is the best new rapper and he fluctuates from the spit of Boosie to up-to Carter 2 era Wayne and Gucci Mane.Les Migos are dope. Very few artists in the genre can match the energy they bring to any song they own or are featured on. No Label 2 and YRN2 stay on regular rotation for me; ideal before a night out on the town. Their ad-libs are hilarious too.
Also important to note how many artists they have influenced in the game today. I like 21 Savage and his latest tape with Metro Boomin but you see the lineage on it.
On the bolded, it's about balance; that's what Hectic's thread is for
Edit: On Plan B, the opening line is...
I gave a bitch a Plan B
Ad-lib: Open your mouth
Although the returns are diminishing I think what allows Atlanta at large as a rap city to stay prevalent is that all the artists feed off of each other and it allows artists to develop their styles. I think the insularity and persistent rap beef of New York in the early 2000s effectively killed New York rap as we know and love it. This is why you get Chief Keef and Future imitations making the biggest noise from New York now. If you contrast that the mid to late 90s when Mobb Deep, Wu-Tang, Nas, Jay-Z, DMX, LOX etc. was all on each others albums going back and forth and pushing each other to step their shit up. TLDR; 50 Cent and old man Jay-Z raps killed New York rap and IDK how I ended up here but I was listening to The Infamous all day and I love that album so much.
I think the difference between a J.Cole and a Young Thug is that their end goals are different, Cole will always purvey himself as a pure lyricist and I will always judge him as such whereas a Thug or a Quavo trade the historical association of lyricism to channel their energies into delivery, structure, flows, melodies and adlibs etc etc. As such the Thug's of this world have more scope because even if they rap about the same thing they'll never rap about in the same way and they will always be able to challenge themselves and evolve artistically because they never boxed themselves in as a specific type of artist in the first place. They can do a Mike Brown tribute mid-song and it will hit you harder because you just didn't expect it from them but Cole can't rap about selling crack mid-song.
Cole isn't failing at anything it's just when you lie lines like 'can't outfart me', 'heating up like left over lasanga' naked against historically great pure lyricists then it's not very good. Cole on Land of The Snakes vs. Andre on Da Art of Storytellin' again is a great comparison, ('I came out the womb with my dick hard', all the bitch and her/she references vs. the character development of Sasha Thumper). The pushback from me is him not being as good as he or his fans want us to believe he is, but like for his time yeah he's probably one of the better pure lyricists around and I agree the sleep thing is overplayed like everything else on the internet. I also think he's pretty important for this generation as someone to aspire to.
There's also this weird thing rap fans do where the push against anything that they perceive as intelligent or ignorant i.e trap not being real rap is folly, as is old rap being dusty. But what the internet giveth with access to every type of rap you could ever hope to hear it taketh away by opening us up to many a terrible rap opinion and the creation of the echo chamber where we think that's the only thing people can think.
Sidebar: How do you like that new Tribe album?
Maybe I need to immerse myself in Bankroll Fresh's music more but I can hear a clear difference between 21 Savage and Bankroll; wouldn't even say they sound similar. It is a shame how his career was snuffed out; many accounts I heard said he was on the verge of blowing up.
I think the story of New York rap around the early to mid 2000s is a bit more complex than the turmoil 50 caused in the scene. You're hitting on some aspects there but a complete overview would also have to include the role of the city's radio stations; folding of many labels around that time that cut the legs off new talent coming out of the city; hip-hop police... and so on.
And yes, the Infamous is a classic.
Because half the time they don't actually rap? They're not trying to be lyrical, articulate, complex etc.
And that's fine, just don't compare it to hip hop because it's not.
We like to put people in boxes when it comes to music, and these guys clearly want to seperate themselves and operate outside the box.
I think Bankroll had more scope to switch his flow up but listen to All There on Jeezy's new album. The disaffected, laidback style Bankroll had often is what 21 Savage uses as his main crutch.
Yeah, there are a lot of other reasons New York is not at the forefront like it should be, that said I think there is scope now for artists to be independent like Brownsville Ka and make the music that they want vs. what radio wants.
Damn you right, Slick Rick not hip-hop either because on La-Di-Da-Di he was talking about partying and stuff and not being articulate or complex.
You're being obtuse for no particular reason, what wasn't articulate about La-Di-Da-Di?
And how is it comparable to Future/Young Thug etc?
Slick rick is known as one of the first story telling rappers, and very easy to hear and understand.
I wasn't even talking about subject matter in the songs so I'm not sure why you brought up partying either.
What I'm saying is the likes of Uzi, Yachty, Thug etc have explicitly said that they are not trying to be put in the same box as the old school rappers, so why should they be labelled in the same box that they are trying to get out of?
I generally agree with this but I sometimes think his wack lines get a disproportional amount of attention. If he hangs his hat on the lyricist rack the scrutiny is deserved to be fair. We'll see how the new album is.
Tribe's album was excellent. It was excellent because it had the Tribe sound, without sounding too nostalgic or "we're bringing 1992 back", a bane of albums created by OGs in the game today. It also displays the brilliance of Q-Tip, an artist who I feel hasn't got his just dues in the hiphop landscape for his work with Tribe, Dilla, Busta, Mobb Deep, Nas... A well constructed project and a fitting sendoff to Phife, and if they never released another album I think this was the perfect way to go out.
Thinking more on a previous post of yours, there is a bunch of new talent in New York, but there is no forum or medium or scene of collaboration. A sort of balkanization which is detrimental to individual careers and the regional scene. The ASAP crew definitely benefited from the collaborations they had with local artists, producers and evernt planners.
Last edited:
Just because you can not decipher it or understand it doesn't mean language is not central to it and that it has not been articulated correctly. What is the difference about Slick Rick talking about sex and drugs and partying and Future and Young Thug doing it? Like Migos are intrinsically more complex than Slick Rick, Slick Rick wasn't using no god damn triplet flows.
Future spent a whole year rapping about depression, drug addiction and the circumstances he came out of and everyone still peddles this crap about oh I can't understand him lolz.
I'm being obtuse because you are being prescriptive about what hip hop is. The very essence IMHO of hip-hop is doing whatever you want, it gives voices to the voiceless. As much as those guys don't necessarily want to be labelled as rappers they are fundamentally rappers, they are indebted to Gucci Mane, Lil Wayne etc. who are in turn indebted to Eazy E,Jay-Z etc. so when you trace the lineage you find that they have far more in common to old school rappers than we even realise.
Wack lines can get dressed up with charisma, but even the greats (Wayne and Jay-Z especially) can sound awfully bad when that delivery and cocksure arrogance isn't there to obscure the simplicity.
I did really enjoy the Tribe album too, Tip is a legend.
But again - I wasn't talking about subject matter, what Future talks about is of no concern to me when it comes labels because most of the greatest rappers talked about partying, drugs etc.
We have to be prescriptive about hip hop don't we? Otherwise how can we discern it from urban music in general?
You're talking about your definition of hip hop that's fine, giving the voice to the voiceless sure - but punk did the same, so did blues, jazz, country, metal etc.
One of the fundamental elements of hip hop is the rapping part, there's no 2 ways about it. If you don't rap regularly why should you be labelled a rapper?
Chris brown raps occasionally should we call him a rapper too?
Beyoncé and Erykah badu have 2 completely different styles that fall under r&b, one is more modern contemporary the other is more mellow, neo-soul but the subject matters are similar right? But if we tried to compare Beyoncé, Rihanna & Keyshia Cole to Lauryn Hill, Erykah & Sade, it wouldn't make much sense would it?
I said in an earlier post I have no issue with them being labelled as rappers, but I think its under a different sub genre of rap.
fshbdfdfjhgbjhbdajhbdfajhbsdfkabjakjdsfhgjfjhawefasfsdfn asfkjawsfsfbdkbfasfkjasf?
Now, no matter what you want to say, the shite I've written above is not words. Neither is intelligible mumbling which would normally be classified as a speech impediment that, for some particular reason, gets classified as a rap nowadays. While I couldn't give two shits about it as I steer clear away from Futures, Designers and other crap, I understand @vi1lain's point, the game is soft nowadays as such poor attempts at music would dissed to oblivion back in the days.
Snoop is touching just a bit of a problem here but he's still right.
Not even going to attempt to debate rap with someone as reductive as yourself.
If it makes you feel better you can call your own farts rap and consider it rap for all I care.
Do you enjoy Eminem rap songs in 2016?
You said you wouldn't debate me so why are you still trying?
I'm not debating, I'm asking a completely unassociated question.
Why don't you ask somebody who's just not as reductive as myself then?
Or should I ask dudududud dadadaddada dededed dudududududdelelele?
I never enjoyed Eminem songs if that makes any difference? 
Except his verses on other people's songs such as Big & Strong or Renegade.
Except his verses on other people's songs such as Big & Strong or Renegade.
Stay defensive then my g.
Implying I'm the defensive one, b.
You're like one of those modern art fans; they watch somebody take a shit on a canvas, watch it get labelled art and get perplexed when somebody tells them that a shit on a canvas is not really art no matter what.
How the feck does one enjoy that bad and boujee song. Sorry but it sounds atrocious.
Sorry but it sounds atrocious.Yeah I think I've been overly presumptuous in discerning what you are trying to say, I apologize, you are right there needs to be a line drawn. Fundamentally Migos/Thug/Future etc. rap more than they sing, but they do associate with melody a lot. What's happened is guys like PartyNextDoor, Bryson Tiller have twigged what those guys do and now their R&B builds on that which muddies the waters for urban music in general. I don't like the notion of sub-genres like trap etc. because I think it's an unfair reduction of what the artist does and I think it allows people to decry specific styles of rap as ignorant and unintelligent.
This mumble shit is a feckin disgrace to the name of hiphop. I feel sorry for people who think it's any good.
Agreed.
I just listened to this Migos and they sound atrocious. Not real rap IMO. Most of the mainstream rappers nowadays can't actually rap, but there are rappers out there who are young and upcoming and are not following the new 'rap' trend of mumbling an autotuning. It is a shame they don't get as much recognition as they should be getting.
That being said, if you think Migos and all these guys are good rappers, fair enough.
I don't even care about lyrics, I usually listen to music while doing something. If the flow and beat are good, I can enjoy it even if the lyrics suck balls. But I simply cannot enjoy this new mumbling/autotuning/Atlanta style of hiphop. It sounds absolutely atrocious and that goes for the beats too.
But yeah, tastes and all that.
But yeah, tastes and all that.
I admit I really was not feeling it early on but, Young Thug really can rap. He really is the natural successor to Lil Wayne.
'Atlanta is killing hip hop' - every idiot since 2005. Gonna cut some D4L on and start getting my snap on, RIP Fabo, have a good night real rap heads decrying commercial hip hop in the errr commercial hip hop thread.
They need to disassociate themselves from hiphop. Call themselves 'mumble' or whatever. Sell their rubbish lyrics, autotuned voices and stupid coloured dreadlocks as something other than rap and I won't give a shit.
*dabbing intensifies*
All of those denigrating Trap Hip Hop better be out there supporting guys like Vince Staples, Earl Sweatshirt, Mick Jenkins, Joey Purp, Saba, etc.
Boy I said I'm getting my snap on, do your googles.