I did say arguably. I think he is more disciplined than Pogba but that could be down to experience. I'd say he is more effective than Dembele going forward.
I always figured Kante as Invisible, the same with Mccarthy at Everton for some years. Invisible doesn't mean you're not doing anything, it might mean you're doing the most important part of the team functions, but not getting the major credit. But you interpret it the other way - fine.
Hes been excellent in a 2 this season and was playing at a high level before we brought Carrick in. He is just a very good player. Also he was great playing in a 2 with Carrick under LVG.
But Herrera isn't even a complete midfielder. There are a few stuff that he lacks especially on his physical attribute.
Hes a decent player and hes played well, shooting apart, since playing with Pogba and Carrick/Fellaini. There are better options out there, but Mourinho has stated he trusts him so for this season at least hes probably one of the first names on the team sheet. In a two man midfield I'm not so sure.
Yes but you've created this thread when we were losing during the Boro match, probably out of frustration, saying he was invisible. It's not difficult to see why people got a negative impression. But you have explained later what your opinion and purpose of the thread is so I don't see why people are still questioning you.
They would of said hes the new Schneiderlin, then we would of bought him, and he probably wouldnt of performed for us lol
Probably because in some eyes he does not score 20 goals lol
We'd hate any player from those teams tbf
Fair point. One I wasn't considering when I made the thread.
Well, it depends on what you consider to be the most important part of the team's functions. I've always believed that it's somewhat difficult to define what is "important" and what isn't in team sports. Whenever i'm having such discussions with friends, it usually all comes down two things: Individual skills in the action zones (where the ball is played) and/or statistics. In terms of individual skills, my opinion is that quite often personal preferences get in the way of good judgement. For example, after having watched two beastly midfielders like Robson and Keane, it was (and still is) difficult for some of our fans to really appreciate what Carrick brings to the table. It's the same with Ander, people look elsewhere for midfielders who are #8s and they see the likes of Modric, Iniesta/Rakitic or even Vidal, Verratti and Alcantara and they believe that we should have someone better in that role. As for the statistics, they usually do more favors to the players who offer end product than to the ones who do all the heavy lifting.
Great analysis. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Just a follow up question: Is he in reality a box-box mid, allowing Pogba to roam? Because I remember a thread asking if Pogba actually played as Box-Box. Wouldn't that even out the balance of the spaces played?Well, it depends on what you consider to be the most important part of the team's functions. I've always believed that it's somewhat difficult to define what is "important" and what isn't in team sports. Whenever i'm having such discussions with friends, it usually all comes down to down to two things: Individual skills in the action zones (where the ball is played) and/or statistics. In terms of individual skills, my opinion is that quite often personal preferences get in the way of good judgement. For example, after having watched two beastly midfielders like Robson and Keane, it was (and still is) difficult for some of our fans to really appreciate what Carrick brings to the table. It's the same with Ander, people look elsewhere for midfielders who are #8s and they see the likes of Modric, Iniesta/Rakitic or even Vidal, Verratti and Alcantara and they believe that we should have someone better in that role. As for the statistics, they usually do more favors to the players who offer end product than to the ones who do all the heavy lifting.
So, what does Herrera offer to our midfield? Most of our fans praise him for his "workrate" but what does that actually mean? Let's go back to what Mourinho has said about his United side. He has mentioned several times that he wants to create a side that will be able to dominate games. His intention is not to recreate a solely counter attacking side like his last title winning Chelsea team. We also know that Mourinho has never been a fan of high pressing. So, how does he plan to dominate games? There are two options, the first one is by "allowing" players from the second line of attack (midfield) to move further up the pitch and by collecting as many second balls in the attacking half.
Now, back to Herrera. No one in our team has regained possession in the attacking half more than Herrera. Someone posted earlier in this tread a stat showing that he's among the best in the PL in that category. Here's another one, perhaps equally important. No one in our squad has collected more second balls in the final third than the Spaniard. Not in the attacking half... in the final third. That's quite impressive for a player whose starting position is slightly ahead of the holding midfielder (or being the holding midfielder himself). This allows us to keep putting pressure on our opponents by pinning the down in their defensive third and Herrera plays a major role in it.
Secondly, we have the utilization of Pogba. The latter is a freak of nature, strong, tall but also able to get almost 3 dribbles p/g. When he's on the ball he can be a creative force and a difference maker for any big side. But he's only 23 years old so he's not the finished article yet. His off the ball movement needs to be improved. He's not lazy by any means, he will get there by gaining experience. But he's at his best with the ball at his feet in dangerous areas. This is something that Juventus acknowledged too. The more he stays in the attacking half, the more influence he can have in our game. The more times he doesn't interfere with initiating the build up but he focuses on finishing the build up, the more dangerous we become for our opponents.
And here comes another important contribution of Herrera to this side. He's the mediator between a 35 yo Carrick and Pogba who, as mentioned, is imperative to be given time and space on the ball in more advanced positions. And he can play that role between Carrick and Pogba without all kinds of spaces opening up in our lines because he can find pockets of space with his movement and he can create extra time on the ball with his first touch. He will always try to create a passing angle for Carrick in order to relieve him of the opponent's pressure or to allow him to move to a better space. And when he's on the ball, his teammates can usually trust him to protect the ball and pass it correctly. The confidence in your teammates' ability to retain possession generates positive thinking and forward movements.
But stats usually don't tell you these little details and, in that sense, you're right to suggest that he can be invisible to some. People will look for key passes/assists/goals to argue that he should be doing more or they will mention his tackles/interceptions in order to praise him. None of these things will tell you the full story. Football is first and foremost a game of spaces and as such its most difficult aspect is the team's transition. When we have the ball Herrera and Carrick/Valencia are the most important players in our attacking transition and when we lose the ball high up the pitch Herrera is probably the most important cog in the wheel of our defensive transition, either by regaining possession or by closing down the first attacker. That's what offers to the side.
He is a b2b midfielder and so is Pogba in our setup. He influences both ends of the pitch, so he "qualifies" for the role whatever way you choose to look at it. But he understands that the team as a whole will benefit more from Pogba being on the ball in the attacking half, so he uses his abilities to ensure that the more creative players will spend more time in advanced positions. It's quite unselfish of him actually and that's one of the reasons the majority of our fans likes him so much. But yeah, he helps with the build up and covers/defends in our half and he always lurks on the edge of the opposition box to regain possession/offer a passing option. That's the epitome of the b2b midfielder. It's just that Pogba becomes one of the main play makers in the attacking phase of our game (end of build up) by sitting at the base of a diamond which also consists of the wingers (tucking in) on its sides and Zlatan on its top that's making people believe that Herrera is playing way behind. But he's always in the whereabouts trying to keep the shape and ready to collect second balls. And Pogba, of course, plays his own part in our defensive game, he doesn't just sit still with his arms around his waist.
So he's an aggressive ball winner when we're defending, and a roaming playmaker when we're attacking?
Show a YouTube highlight of anything and they'd look like godsend. Bet I could find you one of Tom Cleverly and just quote you below.
wow, carrick is grossly overrated around these parts. Especially in the past few years or so, I've been reading more and more about this mythical "prime carrick" and to me it just doesn't add up with the player i've watched all these years. Don't get me wrong though, good player and servant to the club but somehow his legend just took an amazing uptake to levels that just aren't true in my opinion.
He's the one that makes it all tick. I'll never be able to find it, but Neville did analysis on him on MNF a while back about the difference he makes when he plays. The amount of brilliant interceptions and forward passes he makes that go unnoticed is surreal
I believe that most people would agree with this description.
of course but some ppl call him invisible which is annoying and the lack of knowledge here, so just a little reminder here for some ppl
If you point a camera at a guy for 8 minutes and tell people to look at it, they won't see anything else. People should remind you to think before posting. YouTube highlights really doesn't help anything in this debate.
All of those I would categorise as defensive midfielders. That's my point really - we bought him because he was a great prospect offensively, but from what I've been seeing, he's not. He's providing defensive backup, but then everybody was crying for Carrick to bind defence and mid. So then what did Herrera actually provide. But I think I've gotten my answer now
Agree, imo Herrera is outstanding as the holding midfielder. Anywhere else, just ok.
Dembele has scored about 6 goals for tottenham in 4+ seasons, his assists are similarly low.
just realized you are the one who started this thread
Lol. Go watch something other than YouTube - you might be surprised at the quality definition.just realized you are the one who started this thread
just go watch some other sport, maybe you understand something better than footy, tennis might be fine for you - less players on the pitch so you won't miss of much what makes this or that player good, cheers
