Chelsea 2016/17 - Very Content

[Claude Makélélé]

Chelsea fans

Go and check Chelsea fans posts in old Lukaku thread when Jose was Chelsea manager and compare it with the posts now. Lukaku's attitude was question and nothing against Jose at the time of transfer and now they are trying to blame ManUtd manager.

No. They were discussing about the news that Jose was able to inserted a buy-back clause into Lukaku transfer but he didn't do it. Most of us in previous posts agree Jose was right to let Lukaku go (Lukaku + 4 M = we get Diego - that's brilliant).

I remember last summer there were also fans who blamed SAF for letting Pogba go, stating that was his biggest mistake at United. But surely when he (Pogba) left United, he was nobody - or at least not all United fans were up set about his leaving.

 

[roonster09]

No. They were discussing about the news that Jose was able to inserted a buy-back clause into Lukaku transfer but he didn't do it. Most of us in previous posts agree Jose was right to let Lukaku go (Lukaku + 4 M = we get Diego - that's brilliant).

I remember last summer there were also fans who blamed SAF for letting Pogba go, stating that was his biggest mistake at United. But surely when he (Pogba) left United, he was nobody - or at least not all United fans were up set about his leaving.

ManUtd fans were upset even when Morrison was sold and Welbeck left to Arsenal.

Also if Jose was still Chelsea manager, most of the Chelsea fans narrative would have been opposite, same with ManUtd fans.

 

[AshfordLad]

According to most media reports and to Jose himself, he sold De Bruyne because he refused to compete for a place in the team and insisted on being guaranteed playing time. This was despite the fact that Jose also had Hazard, Mata, Oscar and Willian at his disposal. Undoubtedly Jose has a very low tolerance to prima donna attitudes, and that is why he sold him - to Wolfsburg, too. Talented player but he was rightly shown who was boss. I don't think Jose was wrong there.

Jose needlessly went in and bought Willian and that was the end of BeBruyne rather than his meeting with Jose. Same for buying Etoo and getting rid of Lukaku. Jose never had any confidence in DeBruyne and Lukaku.

And even when Jose talks a lot about a young player, its just lip service. He played Zouma in midfield to cover for Matic rather than give RLC a start. And that was after staking his own reputation on RLC's development.

Only a matter of time till young players at United realise they dont stand a chance.

 

[AshfordLad]

Rashfrod played 2072 mins this season, only 9 players played more mins.

In that 9 players
1 is a GK
2 CMs
1 Striker
2 Full backs
2 CBs
1 winger/Attacking mid (Mata)

So he is getting more than enough chances and once narrative was that Jose didn't like Mata but he is among the top when it comes to mins played this season.

I might be wrong here, but my guess would be that more than half of those munites would have been playing out wide or in easy cup games. Also, Jose is still in his honeymoon period with United so he has to romance the idea United's of youth development. Its kind of like the new boyfriend who has to like dogs.

As for Mata, yes Jose does not like Mata and last week we heard the clearest hint of that. Jose would have never sold DiMaria and never bought Mata. Its not a narrative.

Additionally, I dont see (m)any Chelsea fans trying to run Jose down for selling Lukaku. Costa for Lukaku + 4m was the steal of the century and has been acknowledged as such.

 

[Claude Makélélé]

ManUtd fans were upset even when Morrison was sold and Welbeck left to Arsenal.

Also if Jose was still Chelsea manager, most of the Chelsea fans narrative would have been opposite, same with ManUtd fans.

Morrison and especially Welbeck were much more established players than Pogba when they left United. Welbeck was playing regularly for a couple of years while Pogba has only 3 league games prior to his free departure to Juventus. Back to that time, there were fans (at least some fans) blamed (or at least not happy with) Pogba for his lacking of patience to wait for his time to play for United, specially after SAF indicated that Pogba signed a contract with Juve behide his back long time before.

But yes, there are always opposite opinions among the fans of the same club. The point is, 1 or 2 opinions sometime does not represent the rest.

 

[gajender]

Jose needlessly went in and bought Willian and that was the end of BeBruyne rather than his meeting with Jose. Same for buying Etoo and getting rid of Lukaku. Jose never had any confidence in DeBruyne and Lukaku.

And even when Jose talks a lot about a young player, its just lip service. He played Zouma in midfield to cover for Matic rather than give RLC a start. And that was after staking his own reputation on RLC's development.

Only a matter of time till young players at United realise they dont stand a chance.

Its hard to argue against Mourinho's poor record in developing young players its bit hit and miss, but to lay complete blame of Lukaku and DeBruyne sale on him is bit disingenuous.

Chelsea management have no qualms over forcing players on their managers so if they actually believed in Lukaku and DeBruyne potential they could have put their foot down and asked Mourinho to work with them but instead they choose to cash in on them and didn't even put buy back or sell on clauses which they could have insisted upon.

 

[roonster09]

I might be wrong here, but my guess would be that more than half of those munites would have been playing out wide or in easy cup games. Also, Jose is still in his honeymoon period with United so he has to romance the idea United's of youth development. Its kind of like the new boyfriend who has to like dogs.

As for Mata, yes Jose does not like Mata and last week we heard the clearest hint of that. Jose would have never sold DiMaria and never bought Mata. Its not a narrative.

Additionally, I dont see (m)any Chelsea fans trying to run Jose down for selling Lukaku. Costa for Lukaku + 4m was the steal of the century and has been acknowledged as such.

How does it matter if he is playing wide? He is still playing games and improving. If what you are saying is true then he could have played Mata and Mkhitaryan on both wings or even Young.

Honeymoon period? He is not playing Rashford to prove some no namers on internet wrong. Rashford is a good young player, so he is getting chances.

Also you do post a lot without knowing anything about what you are talking. He is playing in a position where Martial is very good. So each of them made 11 starts each in PL.

Also Rashford played 45 mins against City, started against Liverpool away, Chelsea away, Arsenal, Chelsea away in FA cup, City away in league cup. Also in Europa league he played against all the tough opponents he could face.

Edit: Also this criticism of Jose re youth development is just non sense. How many young players did Conte promote at Juve academy? Or Pep at Bayern? Or Ancelotti in his career? Still this thing is used only against Jose.

 

[roonster09]

Morrison and especially Welbeck were much more established players than Pogba when they left United. Welbeck was playing regularly for a couple of years while Pogba has only 3 league games prior to his free departure to Juventus. Back to that time, there were fans (at least some fans) blamed (or at least not happy with) Pogba for his lacking of patience to wait for his time to play for United, specially after SAF indicated that Pogba signed a contract with Juve behide his back long time before.

But yes, there are always opposite opinions among the fans of the same club. The point is, 1 or 2 opinions sometime does not represent the rest.

Morrison wasn't established played. He barely played for ManUtd and only in league cup games.

There are many who blamed Pogba and many who blamed SAF for not handling Pogba situation correctly.

Re you last point, I can only go by what Chelsea fans post here.

 

[Don _ Conte]

If Costa stays why would we need Icardi or Morata?

In my assessment, Lukaku is the poorest choice of the bunch among Kane, Icardi, Morata. And that is saying something since Morata has never scored even 10 league goals for a season in his career. We have zero chance of getting Kane so Icardi should be the clear favorite IF Costa leaves.

Because we are going to be competing on a lot of fronts next year and one injury to costa would leave us with no recognized proven striker, plus it enables us to swap to 3 - 5 -2 when need be with two strong forwards. I think even if costa stays another striker is key.

 

[AshfordLad]

Edit: Also this criticism of Jose re youth development is just non sense. How many young players did Conte promote at Juve academy? Or Pep at Bayern? Or Ancelotti in his career? Still this thing is used only against Jose.

That is a moot point. I dont know Conte's youth record and I honestly dont care (I was comfortable with Jose's record) and Peps' record with youth is equaly as crap. That does not make Jose's record with youth players any less shit.

The fact that you have to get so defensive as to drag other managers who had nothing to do with the discussion in the first place should tell you that something is wrong with your argument here.

 

[roonster09]

That is a moot point. I dont know Conte's youth record and I honestly dont care (I was comfortable with Jose's record) and Peps' record with youth is equaly as crap. That does not make Jose's record with youth players any less shit.

The fact that you have to get so defensive as to drag other managers who had nothing to do with the discussion in the first place should tell you that something is wrong with your argument here.

Eh? You have completely ignored the part where you were proven wrong about Rashford

 

[AshfordLad]

Because we are going to be competing on a lot of fronts next year and one injury to costa would leave us with no recognized proven striker, plus it enables us to swap to 3 - 5 -2 when need be with two strong forwards. I think even if costa stays another striker is key.

So you think Icardi or Morata will be willing to be backup to Costa in a 3-4-3? Rather optimistic.

Also Chelsea playing 3-5-2 is even a bigger fantasy as that would require to bench Hazard. That is assuming IF and its a huge if we can land a midfield dynamo like Vidal or Naingollan.

 

[Claude Makélélé]

Morrison wasn't established played. He barely played for ManUtd and only in league cup games.

There are many who blamed Pogba and many who blamed SAF for not handling Pogba situation correctly.

Re you last point, I can only go by what Chelsea fans post here.

Chelsea 2016/17 - Fans are very Conte nt.

If you go back page 46 on this thread (link above) we have discussed about Lukaku and some other players sold by Jose when Treble_Winning he raised the question about Chelsea letting some of recent talent players go. I posted my opinion there as well. But yes, we can't expect all other Chelsea fans think the same, same with United fans.

 

[AshfordLad]

Eh? You have completely ignored the part where you were proven wrong about Rashford

I was not proven wrong. You saying "how does it matter" does not prove me wrong.

Regardless of that, look at your argument. Its a clear case of "So what if I did that, they did that too".

 

[Boycott]

Jose made a mistake selling Lukaku? Not quite. What has Lukaku really done since joining Everton, how has he performed in big games and what has he won? He has not shown himself to be capable of being regarded as a truly top notch player, so Jose sold him and got a lot of money for him. If I recall correctly there were question marks about his mentality, he bottled a penalty against Bayern and was crushed by that experience. That is an indication of a weak willed player. If Conte now goes and signs Lukaku for £70 million or whatever, THAT would be a mistake. Higuaín, Morata, Aubemayang are all better than Lukaku, in fact if Chelsea had any shrewdness they would break the bank and splurge £70-80m on Harry Kane. United should make a bid for him too. Proven player.

How the feck do you bottle a penalty? You do know goalkeepers are allowed to make saves.......like Boruc did vs Zlatan three weeks ago.

 

[AshfordLad]

How the feck do you bottle a penalty? You do know goalkeepers are allowed to make saves.......like Boruc did vs Zlatan three weeks ago.

Tbf, he never looked like scoring that one.Took a small drogba-esque run up and ended up with a mata-esque kick.

 

[roonster09]

I was not proven wrong. You saying "how does it matter" does not prove me wrong.

Regardless of that, look at your argument. Its a clear case of "So what if I did that, they did that too".

No, it's just something is used against someone when no manager managing top club risks promoting young players.

Ofcourse you said Rashford played in cup games which was wrong. He played in many important games in PL. You said Rashford is not getting enough mins when only 9 players have played more than him and most of them are defenders. You are just moving goal posts with every post.

 

[roonster09]

Chelsea 2016/17 - Fans are very Conte nt.

If you go back page 46 on this thread (link above) we have discussed about Lukaku and some other players sold by Jose when Treble_Winning he raised the question about Chelsea letting some of recent talent players go. I posted my opinion there as well. But yes, we can't expect all other Chelsea fans think the same, same with United fans.

Fair enough, it's just weird to see so many Chelsea fans blaming Jose for everything when they defended him from everything just a year ago.

 

[AshfordLad]

No, it's just something is used against someone when no manager managing top club risks promoting young players.

Yeah, Jose doesnt as well. My point exactly.

Ofcourse you said Rashford played in cup games which was wrong. He played in many important games in PL. You said Rashford is not getting enough mins when only 9 players have played more than him and most of them are defenders. You are just moving goal posts with every post.

No. I am not.

You seem to come up with a new defense of Jose's youth record and the argument falls flat. In the end you got defensive and had to "but everyone else is crap too" which is never an argument.

 

[roonster09]

Yeah, Jose doesnt as well. My point exactly.

No. I am not.

You seem to come up with a new defense of Jose's youth record and the argument falls flat. In the end you got defensive and had to "but everyone else is crap too" which is never an argument.

Again ignoring the main point about Rashford game time.

Offcourse it's an argument when the nonsense is not consistent with all managers.

Even if we ignore how shit Conte's record is with youth development, your post about Rashford is completely wrong. Happy now?

 

[Kentonio]

Additionally, I dont see (m)any Chelsea fans trying to run Jose down for selling Lukaku. Costa for Lukaku + 4m was the steal of the century and has been acknowledged as such.

I remember being dissapointed with Lukaku not Jose over that one, although I can see how to a young lad with 2 established CF's already in front of him, bringing in a 3rd (when we were playing 4,2,3,1) must have felt demoralizing. I also didn't blame Jose for KdB at the time, as if its true he wanted guaranteed play time that's totally unrealistic for a youngster at a top club. It does make me somewhat frustrated though to know that we had 2 of the best young players in the world and lost both. I don't know who is responsible, whether its the club bringing in too many players, or Jose not handling the relationships as well as possible, but it was a bit of a feck up.

 

[Kentonio]

How the feck do you bottle a penalty? You do know goalkeepers are allowed to make saves.......like Boruc did vs Zlatan three weeks ago.

In Treble_Winning's defence (never thought I'd be saying that..) it was a strange moment with that penalty. He stepped up, looked nervous and missed, but it seemed like he was the only one actually affected by it. To everyone else it was just a blah end to a not at all important cup, but he seemed really, really gutted about it and then his transfer request came in soon after so the two ended up being linked in people's minds (imaginations maybe).

I don't think it raises questions about mentality though, if anything it probably just shows how important he considers winning. My own critisism of him mentally is that I wish he'd stop talking to the press so much, and show some diplomacy instead of mouthing off as often as he does.

 

[AshfordLad]

Again ignoring the main point about Rashford game time.

Offcourse it's an argument when the nonsense is not consistent with all managers.

Even if we ignore how shit Conte's record is with youth development, your post about Rashford is completely wrong. Happy now?

Conte's record was your own argument, feel free to ignore it (or take it to town).

Point is going by Jose's past record, Rashford is likely to struggle for game time. Especially when the Jose's honeymoon period gets over and he has to deliver. It seems that you know this as well but want to rumble on regardless.

My bet is United will buy a 50m+ striker this summer making Rashford and martial 3rd/4th choice with no hope of much game time.

 

[roonster09]

Conte's record was your own argument, feel free to ignore it (or take it to town).

Point is going by Jose's past record, Rashford is likely to struggle for game time. Especially when the Jose's honeymoon period gets over and he has to deliver. It seems that you know this as well but want to rumble on regardless.

My bet is United will buy a 50m+ striker this summer making Rashford and martial 3rd/4th choice with no hope of much game time.

Even if we buy 50 Million striker, Rashford will play as winger. So he will get enough game time. Same was said when Jose signed for ManUtd and Rashford has played plenty of games.

Still I don't understand this honeymoon nonsense. Jose is not playing Rashford to prove some Chelsea fans on internet wrong.

So your initial point about how many games Rashford played was wrong, so now you have turned into Nostradamus to predict what is going to happen. You guys talk so much about knowing Jose well buy you don't. Jose's problem is not playing youngish players, it's promoting unknown players from academy.

 

[AshfordLad]

I remember being dissapointed with Lukaku not Jose over that one, although I can see how to a young lad with 2 established CF's already in front of him, bringing in a 3rd (when we were playing 4,2,3,1) must have felt demoralizing. I also didn't blame Jose for KdB at the time, as if its true he wanted guaranteed play time that's totally unrealistic for a youngster at a top club. It does make me somewhat frustrated though to know that we had 2 of the best young players in the world and lost both. I don't know who is responsible, whether its the club bringing in too many players, or Jose not handling the relationships as well as possible, but it was a bit of a feck up.

I still think Lukaku is not good enough to play for elite clubs. Plus we got Costa for nearly the same money. I was/am happy with that. DeBruyne was indeed a feckup especially since we had no need for Willian.

Still wouldn't blame Jose for it though. If your Job depended upon it, you would always choose an experienced hand rather than a 22 year old upstart.

 

[Claude Makélélé]

Fair enough, it's just weird to see so many Chelsea fans blaming Jose for everything when they defended him from everything just a year ago.

There were some brainless fans who labelled him as Judas a week ago. It truly hurts. I can't defend it.

But anyway, cheer!

 

[AshfordLad]

Even if we buy 50 Million striker, Rashford will play as winger. So he will get enough game time. Same was said when Jose signed for ManUtd and Rashford has played plenty of games.

Still I don't understand this honeymoon nonsense. Jose is not playing Rashford to prove some Chelsea fans on internet wrong.

So your initial point about how many games Rashford played was wrong, so now you have turned into Nostradamus to predict what is going to happen. You guys talk so much about knowing Jose well buy you don't. Jose's problem is not playing youngish players, it's promoting unknown players from academy.

Yeah we all know that center forwards like being played out of position out wide dont we.

And the honeymoon thing is not nonsense. Jose clearly becomes extra competitive and more cut-throat in the second season and then almost a maniac in the third season. No doubt you cant make sense of it since you have gotten so defensive about it.

 

[Kentonio]

I still think Lukaku is not good enough to play for elite clubs.

He confuses me to be honest. He seems sometimes like he's not nearly good enough for a top PL striker, but then he just keeps scoring. He's unstoppable at best and woeful at worst. I don't know how I'd feel if he came back. Him being a super passionate Chelsea fan makes me want it to work, but I also think he'd make me shout at the TV a lot.

 

[roonster09]

Yeah we all know that center forwards like being played out of position out wide dont we.

And the honeymoon thing is not nonsense. Jose clearly becomes extra competitive and more cut-throat in the second season and then almost a maniac in the third season. No doubt you cant make sense of it since you have gotten so defensive about it.

Yes but attacking player who can play in any attacking position will be happy playing wide and learning the role. It's not like he is like Zlatan or Drogba who can only play in 1 position.

Again, defensive about what? For correcting you on Rashford's playing time?

 

[AshfordLad]

He confuses me to be honest. He seems sometimes like he's not nearly good enough for a top PL striker, but then he just keeps scoring. He's unstoppable at best and woeful at worst. I don't know how I'd feel if he came back. Him being a super passionate Chelsea fan makes me want it to work, but I also think he'd make me shout at the TV a lot.

Yeah. I once wanted it to work out for him at Chelsea as well. Then he said something like "Now I am a complete striker" and i'd already had enough. That said, I remember Drogba used to bitch about a lot in 2004-05 season as well and we all know how that turned out.

 

[AshfordLad]

Yes but attacking player who can play in any attacking position will be happy playing wide and learning the role. It's not like he is like Zlatan or Drogba who can only play in 1 position.

Again, defensive about what? For correcting you on Rashford's playing time?

You are truly deluding yourself if you think centre forwards strikers like playing out wide. Sturridge left Chelsea exactly for that reason.

And for the nth time, defensive over Joss freezing out inexperienced players. Its not even contestable.

Edit: Now that I think of it Rashford is very similar to Sturridge. I would love to have him here when he leaves United (though we have the same problem with youth so he will probably end up at some club like arsenal of liverpool)

 

[roonster09]

You are truly deluding yourself if you think centre forwards strikers like playing out wide. Sturridge left Chelsea exactly for that reason.

And for the nth time, defensive over Joss freezing out inexperienced players. Its not even contestable.

Edit: Now that I think of it Rashford is very similar to Sturridge. I would love to have him here when he leaves United (though we have the same problem with youth so he will probably end up at some club like arsenal of liverpool)

Maybe not every player is thick.

"Playing out wide is going to help me to develop to play in the middle in the long run," he told Sky Sports. "Looking at the game from a different perspective, it's helping my game a lot.

"When I do get a chance to go in the middle, I find things more natural now. I do think it's helping my game."

 

[BonkersIam]

Chelsea fans

Go and check Chelsea fans posts in old Lukaku thread when Jose was Chelsea manager and compare it with the posts now. Lukaku's attitude was question and nothing against Jose at the time of transfer and now they are trying to blame ManUtd manager.

Lukaku was then and still is now 50/50 with Chelsea support (similar scenario to De Bruyne) The main thing back then he was a raw talent that needed work and his attitude was questionable.....but that was up to the head coaches including Jose to either work with this or move him on especially as Lukaku wanted assurances of first team football.
Since his loans and permanent move, he has improved year on year to become a more complete striker but still not the finished article,

Should Jose (who was head coach at the time Lukaku left} stuck with him and try and work through it.....very difficult when Jose decides to keep Torres, bring back Drogba, have Costa plus others who would have been infront of Lukaku...so if anyone has an ounce of intelligence it is possible to see both sides of the story. At the end of the day it was Lukaku himself who said he made the choice to move.

Do Chelsea support want Lukaku back? As I said it is 50/50 ...but would he play if Costa stayed....I think Costa will be number 1 if he stays and if thats the case Lukaku wont come back to Chelsea

 

[Kentonio]

Do Chelsea support want Lukaku back? As I said it is 50/50 ...but would he play if Costa stayed....I think Costa will be number 1 if he stays and if thats the case Lukaku wont come back to Chelsea

If we did buy him back, he certainly wouldn't be ahead of Diego, and I can't see him agreeing to move to be 2nd.

We really do need a second striker thoough, although I wish Batshuayi would be given more of a chance.

 

[The Outsider]

How would a greedy agent benefit if his client were to stop trying?

I'm not sure, I got this from a debate on a different forum.

Thinking logically do agents get a cut of a young players salary, and then if hypothetical young talent could get a move for regular football to a lower league would the agents cut be smaller?

 

[The Outsider]

If we did buy him back, he certainly wouldn't be ahead of Diego, and I can't see him agreeing to move to be 2nd.

We really do need a second striker thoough, although I wish Batshuayi would be given more of a chance.

I don't think you can have either Diego or Lukaku on the bench, they both lead the line on their own.
Would AC change the formation to include both like a 3-5-2, not sure.

It would be interesting to know why Batshuayi has not been given a better chance to impress.

 

[BonkersIam]

I don't think you can have either Diego or Lukaku on the bench, they both lead the line on their own.
Would AC change the formation to include both like a 3-5-2, not sure.

It would be interesting to know why Batshuayi has not been given a better chance to impress.

perhaps he could go to his favoured 424 system.

 

[AshfordLad]

I don't think you can have either Diego or Lukaku on the bench, they both lead the line on their own.
Would AC change the formation to include both like a 3-5-2, not sure.

He cant since that would require him to put Hazard on bench.

perhaps he could go to his favoured 424 system.

Cant play a back 4 with Alonso, Cahill and Luiz in it. A 4-2-4 would require an upgrade of atleast two of those three players wihch could cost 80m+

Optimal choice would be to stick with 3-4-3 and go for better players.

 

[The Outsider]

He cant since that would require him to put Hazard on bench.
Cant play a back 4 with Alonso, Cahill and Luiz in it. A 4-2-4 would require an upgrade of atleast two of those three players wihch could cost 80m+

Optimal choice would be to stick with 3-4-3 and go for better players.

The Times was reported a week ago saying Conte wanted £200m to build a squad capable of winning the CL.

 

[AshfordLad]

The Times was reported a week ago saying Conte wanted £200m to build a squad capable of winning the CL.

No. Times actually reported that Chelsea board are refusing to give Conte 200m to build a squad.