Entertainment value or just get the 3 pts?

[beingshe7don]

Media has reports on senior figures both being behind him and also being unsure about him so I won't be surprised if they were also has polarised as the fans.

I'm pretty sure SAF and Sir Bobby Charlton were not in favor of him managing the club to begin with and now even more so. The only backing I can see him getting is from Ed. Ed appointed Van Gaal and Mourinho and so if Mourinho fails, so did he. If we are going to get rid of Pogba and Martial and buy some new players, I'm NOT in favor of this business. Like what Richard Keys said, Mourinho is jealous of Pep and Klopp and the kind of football they are playing and achieving results at the same time. Even if Liverpool end up below us in the PL at the end of the season, they still had a better season because they played entertaining football and went ahead in the CL.

 

[AlwaysRed66]

This is the problem for Mourinho. Once the team stops improving & not looking like winning the biggest prizes (league/CL) he has nothing to fall back on. Contrast that with Klopp & Poch who despite not winning any trophies are seen in good light. That can keep you going for awhile. Even when winning fans/clubs easily turn when the football is dire. Look at Southampton last season. Came 8th but still wanted Puel out, & they have hardly our goals & prestige.

 

[beingshe7don]

Surely you may as well just not bother watching the games then? Just head down into Manchester city centre and follows the bus parade and join in the celebrations? I mean, I'm being a little sarcy but I genuinely can't understand why anybody would watch football solely to win. Getting battered every week wouldn't be very fun either, but the whole purpose of watching football is to be entertained and have a bit of fun with the people you're watching it with.

If all football games were like United-Sevilla then I'd wrap it in all together and stick to watching other sports.

I second that. Football is meant to be entertaining. We essentially park the bus every freaking game and still end up conceding. So even parking the bus isn't been done right. Managers like Mourinho will be a businessman's delight but a eyesore for the fans. Honestly, hope there was a fans union to get our words across to the board because clearly they've been deaf.

 

[shaky]

Most of the big teams do both. Madrid, Barca, Bayern, PSG entertain and get the job done. That’s in Europe and at home so don’t spout any of this easy games nonsense.

Pep's Barca team was lauded as the best club side in history at it's peak, but I thought the tiki-taka brand of football was mostly boring to watch. Messi was always going to give moments of magic but it was never a "highly entertaining" style of football overall.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Does anyone else find this idea very over simplified? Example when people talk about us and Jose they often say it’s/he are a counter attacking team or manager. Then people make out that’s why it’s boring and we have to live with that as it’s the best way to get results.
We’ve been a team that played counter attacking football many times through out my time watching United and it was fun and exciting. Even when we lost, I left feeling that next week it’ll be fine we’ll sort it.
Now it’s just soul destroying watching this tumescent nothingness. It’s not even counter attacking football. Its just uninspiring nonsense.
Same goes for the opposite everyone thinks to be entertaining you need to play like City or that is what gets thrown about, often used as an accusation. Heck last years Chelsea and then previous Leicester were great teams to watch and they were counter attacking. Enjoyment doesn’t just have to come from goals. It’s really just depressing at the moment and even winning just seems joyless.

Of course there have been good performances through out the season but for me few and far between and I think our best stuff has been played in the 352. We’ve just looked slicker and more like a team with the know how.

 

[simplyared]

A club with our resources doesn't need to pick one.

Tell our manager that!

 

[Seanus]

I'm pretty sure SAF and Sir Bobby Charlton were not in favor of him managing the club to begin with and now even more so. The only backing I can see him getting is from Ed. Ed appointed Van Gaal and Mourinho and so if Mourinho fails, so did he. If we are going to get rid of Pogba and Martial and buy some new players, I'm NOT in favor of this business. Like what Richard Keys said, Mourinho is jealous of Pep and Klopp and the kind of football they are playing and achieving results at the same time. Even if Liverpool end up below us in the PL at the end of the season, they still had a better season because they played entertaining football and went ahead in the CL.

Would you still believe this if a club outside the top 4 played more attractively? United play great football win a few 5-0. 5-4 but also lose some by same margin, finish 5th-how long would satisfaction with that last?Be honest with yourself when answering! I also follow Shefield Weds (my local team growing up), several times Wednesday got to a reasonable level but after a couple of years the fans demanded more-e.g. Wednesday finished 3rd and 7th under Trevor Francis and got to both cup finals in the same year-but that wasn't acceptable, now look where they are....

 

[beingshe7don]

Pep's Barca team was lauded as the best club side in history at it's peak, but I thought the tiki-taka brand of football was mostly boring to watch. Messi was always going to give moments of magic but it was never a "highly entertaining" style of football overall.

It's not about tika taka. It's down to fundamentally attack being the best defense. There's no pressing game to win the ball higher up the pitch. No short forward passes, it's just been long balls for Lukaku to chase. Come on now, now that would put anyone in an instant coma.

 

[Raees]

PSG
Monaco
Manchester City
Real Madrid
Barcelona
Bayern Munich

Just off top of the head teams which win and entertain in equal measure in recent years and even international wise teams like Brazil transitioned back into more attacking style due to lack of results when being too pragmatic.

Even sides like Juventus who are more tactical don't play dog shit football. It's very rare you get boring as feck teams who grind that go on to win the best trophies year in year out. It's not a very successful strategy.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Surely you may as well just not bother watching the games then? Just head down into Manchester city centre and follows the bus parade and join in the celebrations? I mean, I'm being a little sarcy but I genuinely can't understand why anybody would watch football solely to win. Getting battered every week wouldn't be very fun either, but the whole purpose of watching football is to be entertained and have a bit of fun with the people you're watching it with.

If all football games were like United-Sevilla then I'd wrap it in all together and stick to watching other sports.

The point is to win, and big clubs have to do it. No one cares when teams win with negative tactics, or if they do, they should think about whether or not they understand what the purpose of the game is: when you support a club, you want them to win, and nothing more. Any stylistic or ideological concerns are secondary to winning, if that winning is consistent. You could probably find examples where clubs have had their ethos changed and continued with something they were hesitant about at the beginning because it achieved results.

So starting from a low base where playing both great football (we didn't have great players) and getting results (this is where pragmatism comes in) wasn't feasible. This was something noted by LvG early on in his tenure and by Jose immediately. The standard of the squad was dire. LvG didn't help much as the players he bought fit his system but he wasn't able to make his system a winning system. I think that Jose steadying the ship has required more pragmatism than usual in order to get results, and, Sevilla aside, we have had very good results with him so far. We've played a mixture of very good football and very negative and boring football. About 30/70 throughout the season so far I'd say.

Still, I think we're a season away from being a Jose team (or to finding out if Jose can make his system a winning system, unlike van Gaal, to seeing whether or not that is still possible and if Jose is the right man for the job). If he does bring us up a level to something resembling his best Inter and Real sides, then we won't have boring football as his best teams weren't boring, though they could be pragmatic in big games.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Well, it depends on your definition, does it not? Scoring goals is entertainment and we've scored a good amount this season, so I can't say we've been completely boring. The goals have dried up a little over the past 2 months or so which has led to this period of negative football whilst managing to attain good results. Over the course of the season, I'd say we've been better than both Arsenal and Chelsea and on par (maybe a little below) with Tottenham (97 goals to our 87).

 

[Cloud7]

Currently this is the only site where I interact with anyone who believes that these two things are mutually exclusive.

It seems to be lost on a lot of people that a team can in fact do both. All the best teams do in fact play entertaining football and win. It is very much possible to do both, contrary to what many on here would have you believe.

 

[fishfingers15]

A win is a win, but should we even compromise with one over another? There is a reason why Greece winning Euro is a fact but it is also one of the least loved teams. When you play pragmatically and lose to mid-table Spanish teams, outrage and meltdowns are inevitable.

 

[Mainoldo]

Both. Seeing as we are boring and don’t get the points, can’t see why we can’t be the opposite.

 

[fishfingers15]

Well, it depends on your definition, does it not? Scoring goals is entertainment and we've scored a good amount this season, so I can't say we've been completely boring. The goals have dried up a little over the past 2 months or so which has led to this period of negative football whilst managing to attain good results. Over the course of the season, I'd say we've been better than both Arsenal and Chelsea and on par (maybe a little below) with Tottenham (97 goals to our 87).

So are we the 4th best entertaining team in England? I think that's fair, but should we not demand better with the bestest manager in the league and our resources?

 

[beingshe7don]

Would you still believe this if a club outside the top 4 played more attractively? United play great football win a few 5-0. 5-4 but also lose some by same margin, finish 5th-how long would satisfaction with that last?Be honest with yourself when answering! I also follow Shefield Weds (my local team growing up), several times Wednesday got to a reasonable level but after a couple of years the fans demanded more-e.g. Wednesday finished 3rd and 7th under Trevor Francis and got to both cup finals in the same year-but that wasn't acceptable, now look where they are....

Obviously finishing out of the top 4 would be disastrous as we wouldn't be able to even play in the CL which is why I carefully chose two teams that have been fantastic to watch while still getting the results. And this is Manchester United, the BIGGEST club in the world. You can't compare them to Sheffield Wednesday now. Let's face it, the 4-0 games that we've had this season were a little misleading and exaggerated since most of the goals came in the dying minutes when the opposition tried to open up. So let's not get carried away with that. Mourinho does NOT coach players on what they should do or expect to do in the final third, he relies on individual brilliance. There are videos of Sterling being specifically told what to do in the final third and what passes will possibly come to him and what runs to make. Now that's coaching. Most teams that Mourinho has parted ways with have ended up imploding and the managers after have had to rebuild the confidence. Inter and Porto were other teams that didn't get to face this because Mourinho left those teams the moment he won the CL with them.

 

[shaky]

It's not about tika taka. It's down to fundamentally attack being the best defense. There's no pressing game to win the ball higher up the pitch. No short forward passes, it's just been long balls for Lukaku to chase. Come on now, now that would out anyone in an instant coma.

I wasn't referring to our specific tactics. Just pointing out that highly entertaining football isn't a necessity, as long as whatever style you use is effective enough.

 

[red_devil83]

If we don't play great football can we even call ourselves a great club?

Since top 4 is almost guaranteed and 2nd is just as nowhere as 4th, then I want us to prioritise attacking and entertaining football for the rest of the league season at least.

 

[Seveneric]

Tell our manager that!

The caf too. Seeing as I've seen people on here act like playing fluid, entertaining football and keeping a good defense are mutually exclusive.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

So are we the 4th best entertaining team in England? I think that's fair, but should we not demand better with the bestest manager in the league and our resources?

One of the main reasons this place kind of annoys me is because, during the period where we quite entertaining (51 goals in our first 22 games), the incessant complaining never ceased. But, your (and others') point is valid. I'm not too fussed with the way we performed against Liverpool or Chelsea, however, I, too, want more ambition against Newcastle, Huddersfield x2, Sevilla x2 etc.

 

[beingshe7don]

I wasn't referring to our specific tactics. Just pointing out that highly entertaining football isn't a necessity, as long as whatever style you use is effective enough.

I'm sorry about I would have to disagree. We might as well change the club's name to Buschester United or Manbuster United since all we do is park the bus and that by no means in entertaining. If other clubs can do both, so can we especially when our owners have spent money when the manager has asked for it. Can you imagine if Messi played the brand of football that Mourinho decided? He wouldn't have been the Messi that we all know today. Let's call a spade, a spade. Mourinho is a good manager for other clubs but he's not a United manager. I mean the dressing room looks divided. Pogba and Martial seem to have stuff going on with Mourinho. Ibrahimovic despite being injury free and being paid 180k a week is just training and offering us nothing. What was the point of extending this contract. Sanchez looks lost in Mourinho's tactics. It's all falling apart.

 

[MDFC Manager]

A club with our resources doesn't need to pick one.

Exactly. And if you see the best clubs around, they don’t pick one.

On top of what Varun said we aren't even playing defensive football well. We give up way too many chances

These!

The entire United brand was built on both but now we have to pretend none of that ever happened and both are mutually exclusive

Nah, it's ok for Mourinho to play dogshit football, because Fergie did so quite a few times as well...

 

[Minimalist]

So are we the 4th best entertaining team in England? I think that's fair, but should we not demand better with the bestest manager in the league and our resources?

We create the least amount of chances and have the worse 'shots on target' per match of all the top six, for what it's worth.

 

[Nick7]

3 points. I guess I better apologise for that.

 

[shaky]

I'm sorry about I would have to disagree. We might as well change the club's name to Buschester United or Manbuster United since all we do is park the bus and that by no means in entertaining. If other clubs can do both, so can we especially when our owners have spent money when the manager has asked for it. Can you imagine if Messi played the brand of football that Mourinho decided? He wouldn't have been the Messi that we all know today. Let's call a spade, a spade. Mourinho is a good manager for other clubs but he's not a United manager. I mean the dressing room looks divided. Pogba and Martial seem to have stuff going on with Mourinho. Ibrahimovic despite being injury free and being paid 180k a week is just training and offering us nothing. What was the point of extending this contract. Sanchez looks lost in Mourinho's tactics. It's all falling apart.

Yup, all falling apart into our best league finish in years. So yes, we went out of the CL a round earlier than we should have, but forgive me if i'm not buying into this whole "we're doomed" scenario just yet.

 

[kouroux]

A club with our resources doesn't need to pick one.

Spot on. A club with our resources has to provide both even.

 

[Greck]

These!


Nah, it's ok for Mourinho to play dogshit football, because Fergie did so quite a few times as well...

I don't get that either. Fergie's final two seasons weren't a great watch but the 20 or so odd years of good entertainment that preceded that is what makes it easy to overlook. it's essentially using Fergie's worst to absolve Jose's best

 

[kouroux]

Nail meets head.

Though honestly as much as I'd love a swashbuckling approach I'd take something as dull as Spain's domination if it meant league and Champion's League wins. The end justifies the means when it comes to that approach.

Spain's boring domination as you put it is much better on the eye than what we consistently provide

 

[Di Maria's angel]

We create the least amount of chances and have the worse 'shots on target' per match of all the top six, for what it's worth.

I'd say our win against Palace was far more entertaining than the draw to Burnley last season where we had 36 shots on goal. It depends what you perceive as entertaining. The run of games against Chelsea, Palace and Liverpool were all entertaining in different ways. Not every game needs to constitute 100 shots on goal.

 

[Nick7]

Spain's boring domination as you put it is much better on the eye than what we consistently provide

Maybe so, doesn't mean that everyone wants to watch it. Play styles can be subjective. Nothing better than a good old Italian style monstrous defensive performance.

Disclaimer: I am not comparing our play to that.

 

[Burrow]

It kind of depends what you’re used to as a fan, I reckon. We’ve been getting our fair share of wins despite so many years of boring football now, so our fans surely are desperate for some entertainment over a longer period of time. Ask a club who has been playing great football, but never win anything and rarely ever compete for trophies and I’m sure they rather sacrifice some attacking football for actual results.

 

[beingshe7don]

Yup, all falling apart into our best league finish in years. So yes, we went out of the CL a round earlier than we should have, but forgive me if i'm not buying into this whole "we're doomed" scenario just yet.

It's fine... You can have your opinion. Finishing 2nd and getting out in the CL in the last 16 is just a paper over the cracks. We aren't playing the brand of football we were promised and the harmony in the team seems to be affected. No exactly a sense of doom but it's not exactly hunky dory and birds chirping and wind blowing calmness either.

 

[beingshe7don]

It kind of depends what you’re used to as a fan, I reckon. We’ve been getting our fair share of wins despite so many years of boring football now, so our fans surely are desperate for some entertainment over a longer period of time. Ask a club who has been playing great football, but never win anything and rarely ever compete for trophies and I’m sure they rather sacrifice some attacking football for actual results.

But why is that the case? When we are spending 200m every transfer window, why can't we achieve both? Pep seems to have figured that out now.

 

[Minimalist]

I'd say our win against Palace was far more entertaining than the draw to Burnley last season where we had 36 shots on goal. It depends what you perceive as entertaining. The run of games against Chelsea, Palace and Liverpool were all entertaining in different ways. Not every game needs to constitute 100 shots on goal.

Seriously, what the feck is with the extreme arguments?

I'm simply stating that we create less than the rest of the top six and don't work the keepers as much. Those are two things that most people associate with a good entertaining side. Everyone would also admit, that you don't need to be entertaining to win football matches either (hence we are 2nd in the league in spite of this).

 

[Burrow]

But why is that the case? When we are spending 200m every transfer window, why can't we achieve both? Pep seems to have figured that out now.

Agreed, but I’m sure that can be discussed in one of the hundred of other threads on that exact topic

 

[beingshe7don]

I'd say our win against Palace was far more entertaining than the draw to Burnley last season where we had 36 shots on goal. It depends what you perceive as entertaining. The run of games against Chelsea, Palace and Liverpool were all entertaining in different ways. Not every game needs to constitute 100 shots on goal.

I completely agree but that's the thing. We don't always play that particular brand of football under Mourinho. The games against Arsenal (A), Chelsea (H), Liverpool (H) and Palace (A) were the only stand out games this season.

 

[Sensei]

Ok so we are sitting 2nd in the PL. How are we doing in terms of entertainment value? Is this something we should be taking into consideration or should we focus on results only? Are we being doctrined into accepting anything that’s dished up for us as long as we get the 3 pts?

Looking at the top clubs in the PL. That is to say City, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal. Where would you put us in terms of entertainment value?

Myself I would have only one of those clubs lower than us and that club would be Arsenal for the simple reason they have a lower lowest level than we have. However on the occasions they put it together they would overtake us imo.

Are you one of those who will take a result at any price or do you expect more from a club of our stature?

In my years as a football & Manchester united fan, this conversation seems to come out frequently since Jose became manager. Results and entertainment are not mutually exclusive, infact entertainment produces results 95% of the time. Someone is just trying to change right thinking here.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Balance of both.

For our club, no excuses really. Strong and capable enough to do both.

Some consideration need to be considered. We're playing a long season and this game called football can be surprising - at times the players will have off days or suddenly the opponents (eg. small teams) turn to Giant Killing mode in matches against us, and fatigue can easily affecting the team heavily, especially towards the end of the season, so the entertainment value may be hard to be fulfilled.

 

[simonhch]

Why do entertainment and results have to mutually exclusive? No-one expects 4-3's every week. They just expect an attacking intent, and good results. Which for a club of our stature and budget, should be the minimum requirement.

 

[FujiVice]

When was the last time we scored 5 goals in a match?