How many times are you going to say the same stupid thing and I'm going to correct you... it's about the 10th different time I'm going to tell you the exact same thing in a span of about 2 years. If you believe career goals per game ratio is a fair measure of how good of a goalscorer a player is, then you're an idiot.
Probably going to have to stop debating with you cos you are clearly clueless and bias.
Yes. You played against Iceland, Hungary and Austria. You were favourites to win this group by a landslide. Everything but making it to the knockout stages would be a huge disappointment, just like it would've been for Madrid this season. You cannot say "Ronaldo is so important, he scored in the group stage" but simultaneously argue "Messi scores primarily in the group stage of the CL thus he is inferior." This whole line of argument seems agenda driven and constructed. Cherry picking at its best.
So you are arguing that you played uninspired football by intent and not because you could not do better? Come on. Even if it would have been clear in the beginning that only two teams go through, your opponents would have played the same way against you. And Portugal didn't intended to draw these matches. That's just silly. You've played far below your potential and yet managed to win the whole thing. You were lucky, simple as that just like exemplarily Chelsea when they won the CL.
The difference is that Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and in total scored maybe 10 of them while Messi creates chances through his dribbling game in game out. Ronaldo doesn't drop deep and initiates attacks. It is like it is. And for people who think that this is important, this makes the difference between the two. And this is also why it is ridiculous that you say they occupied the same position. Messi plays deeper than Cristiano on ever heat chart you can find.
Yes, the goal is worth the same. But In order for him to be able to play a simple pass as an assist, the midfield and other players have to do their jobs in the first place. At the recent Barcelona and for Argentina, this is often Messi's job. He receives the ball around the halfway line with 4-5 players of his own team before him, dribbles one, plays a forward bass and gets it back, then shoots himself or plays it out wide to Alba/whoever. He is involved in the build up, the switch to attacking play, key passes, assisting and scoring - the complete supply chain. He even did that when he had his goal record season and often played with Xavi and Iniesta. That is what people mean when they talk about playmaking ability. Ronaldo is a brillant attacking player, especially on the counter. But Messi rivals him in that discipline and is more on top.
That is true but it goes both ways. Exemplarily this typical phrase "well, goals are the most important things in football" as an argument for Cristiano. It completely ignores the fact that there are much more players involved in the scoring of a goal than the one who puts it in the net - and often (I would even say more often than not) those who didn't score the goal contributed more to it than the actual scorer.
How many times... I did challenge it, about 20 different times. It might geniunely be the 20th time I'm telling you the exact same thing.
So you believe Portugal are as likely to get out of that group as Barcelona are to get out of the group stages of the Champions League? And you also believe Messi scoring in the group stages is as important as him scoring in the knockouts???
The last 30 minutes of the Hungary game was pretty much a non agression pact... do you think it would have been the same if only 2 teams go through? It's such a stupid argument to make. Portugal didn't deserve to win the tournament because they got 3rd in a group where 3 teams go to the next stage
No, we wouldn't have played as defensively as we did if 2 teams got through either.Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and has scored about 10 of them
You can't be serious...Not really, this season and most of last season yes. The past few seasons, no. From 2006 to well into his Madrid career it was the exact opposite.
So does Barcelona's midfield for Messi, it's the exact same.
It is very rare that the player who contributed most to a goal wasn't the actual scorer. The problem is that in goals like these, the passer will get recognition instead of the scorer whose run/positioning was what made the goal possible.
I disagree, Portugal look much better without Ronaldo than Argentina have without Messi.
Messi also has to do EVERYTHING for Argentina. Higuain has ONE job as a striker. To score goals and he’s been quite poor at that. His misses for Argentina are legendary.
How many times have you watched Portugal play without Ronaldo besides the Euros final? Not even once...
Doesn’t matter, it’s a FINAL, how many teams would be able to win a final without their best player? Pepe deserves as much credit as Ronaldo (and yes, Ronaldo has a good tournament) the same way Mascherano deserves a ton of credit with Messi for the 2014 WC run.
In Argentina he played lots of games as a CM.
I'm just surprised at how you can make a statement like that without even watching Portugal play.
Why doesn't he play as a CM in the World Cup then and Dybala plays in his regular position? Isn't Argentina's midfield their problem?
Good question, maybe he will play as a CM, again.
Depends on the CL group. But yes, in general it is. Portugal had not a single competitor on the same level in this group. Look at Madrid's group this year with Tottenham and Dortmund. Or Chelsea's with Atletico and Rome. You have to be lucky in order to draw a group in which there isn't at least one additional top team. Before the recent changes, it used to be similar in the EC.
Yeah, so Portugal, that saw itself as a title contender, intended to draw its first games in order to go through with the intitially uncertain third place. Honestly, this is simply ridiculous. This may be true for the last 30 minutes of the Hungary game but what about the previous two games? And besides that, if Portugal would have attacked more it could as well had gone in a different direction. This is just distraction from the fact that Portugal played underwhelming football, failed to win the games and got extremely lucky during the EC. You still have the title, but naming this as a reason to place Ronaldo before Messi is just ridiculous. Especially if you see what Messi did during WC 2014 and Copa America 2016, even aside his goals.The last 30 minutes of the Hungary game was pretty much a non agression pact... do you think it would have been the same if only 2 teams go through? It's such a stupid argument to make. Portugal didn't deserve to win the tournament because they got 3rd in a group where 3 teams go to the next stage
You talked about Ronaldo picking up a ball on the half way line and scoring from a distance. He hasn't been doing these kind of things for ages and even back in the day at United it were very rare goals when he scored from 30 meters plus. Messi does his thing much more often. Watch his highlight videos of the Copa final. Basically, Argentina's whole offense consisted of Messi getting the ball at the circle and trying his best to start attacks by beating multiple players and setting up the forwards. In Barcelona he gets more help but he still does it multiple times a game.Ronaldo hasn't had a screamer in years and has scored about 10 of them
Yes, of course he does it "occasionally" and that was a pass Messi would be proud of. Probably every attacking player does it now and then and obviously "he never does it" is an exaggeration. But honestly, these kind of plays occur very, very rarely with Cristiano. He plays 1.4 key passes per game according to WhoScored which is pretty average for an offensive player in his position. Especially on his level and with such team mates.
No, it isn't and I think you know that very well. Messi participates much more in the build up, plays much more passes and drops deeper. And he also has been doing this with Xavi and Iniesta. in their prime.
No, it is not very rare and it is the reason why historically the best players tended to be playmakers. Yes, movement and runs are also very important but athleticism and a certain "tactical understanding are enough to execute them while the assists take more technical ability and at least the same amount of intelligence/instinct/awareness or whatever you want to call it. If watch compilations of Messi assisting (or of assists that were not converted by his team mates), it is simply amazing.
Every single thing you’re arguing against... I didn’t say.
Messi was injured a lot when he broke through - apparently being in and out of the team at a young age helped him score more goals than Ronaldo at the beginning of his career. We all know the key to becoming a consistent goalscorer is by lying on the physio's table, not being able to train and having to regain fitness every time you come back from injury. It's as if these people think that like FM or FIFA, Messi's finishing stats got better simply because he got older, rather than him actually being a better finisher, whom would had have an even better goalscoring record had he have been as fit as Ronaldo and being able to consistently train and play when he broke through.Ronaldo played more games as a kid? Didn't Messi make his debut at 16?
Madrid are way better than Dortmund than Portugal are to Iceland, Hungary or Austria.
I didn't argue that last part though, I never said Ronaldo winning an international trophy made him the better player as it obviously doesn't. I'm arguing the first part where you're discrediting Portugal's win because we came 3rd in our group which is bullshit. We obviously didn't intend to draw every game, but we would have taken more risks if only 2 teams went through. Saying we would have been eliminated in the previous format as if everything would have gone the same way if the format was different is unfair.
Yeah and that's why it doesn't work. If they built a more team oriented system they would be a lot better than they are.
They get forgotten but they get appreciated as they're happening. If player A makes the right run but player B misses the pass then player A will never get the credit for making the run and losing his marker.
No, it helped him having a better goals to game ratio which is what he was talking about. He'd have had more goals but his goal to game record would have been worse.
You said that "The problem with the qualitive evaluation is that you can say whatever the hell you want and pretend it's true when it's blatantly not. Just like two posts ago you said Ronaldo didn't create chances... So the guy who has no role in chance creation creates more chances than anyone on his team just because he's upfront... but then does he create chances or not?" You are talking about Ronaldo here.
Not this season though, he mentioned the time where Ronaldo's been winning more which is the past 4/5 years.
2015? I said well into his Madrid career. Until about 2012 that was the case.
Except for the fact he did score, against Wales.
While I understand the point, that seems a bit speculative to be honest. I think they should be judged on their total amount of goals when both of their careers are done.
I’m willing to offer even money for Ronaldo to retire AFTER Messi, any takers?While I understand the point, that seems a bit speculative to be honest. I think they should be judged on their total amount of goals when both of their careers are done.
At the moment the only definitive fact seems they’re quite rather prolific
Wouldn't surprise me honestly.
That's what I'm talking about as well. For some reason, Ronaldo being fit and Messi being injured a lot has somehow been used as an advantage of Messi's when discussing their goal to game ratios.
But why? Prior his 2008/2009 season where he was became a consistent goalscorer, he had 4 years where he amassed 110 games; who is to say that if he played those 110 games without niggling injuries and interruption he would have scored less goals? It stands to reason that with consistent training and playing time in those years that he would have developed quicker and had a better goal to game ratio than he has now. It's all speculation of course, but I find it strange that some people (well you and Cal?, god bless ya) use this as a way to dismiss their career goal to game ratios.
It's not strange, it's simple. His career goals per game is 0.81. At that time he scored less than that, so if he had played more games during that time his goal per game ratio for his whole career would be smaller. What's the problem? I still don't understand why you don't think that's true.
Because it's not true, it's speculation. He may very well have improved his goalscoring earlier than he did if he played more and thus his goal to game ratio in turn.
If Ronaldo retired at the end of this season and Messi continued playing until he was 35 and his career goal per game ratio began to dwindle below Ronaldo's, I suspect you wouldn't have such a dismissive attitude towards goal per game ratios over entire careers, but then again who am I to talk, that's just speculation!
That's like saying water is wet when you touch it, but not wet if you don't touch it, either Leo comes deeper to midfield, or he doesn't, he's limited by space and time.
Of course I would, always said it's stupid.. Obviously if Messi plays until he's 50 and his career goals per games lowers to 0.50 goals per game that doesn't mean he was worse at scoring goals than plenty of other players in his generation.
Then those people need to start watching the stats and the game better instead of saying stupid things... not that I think you even believe in what you're saying. 'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him'That's like saying water is wet when you touch it, but not wet if you don't touch it, either Leo comes deeper to midfield, or he doesn't, he's limited by space and time.
Your own heatmaps, with Ronaldo position corrected as if it was a RW player, and centered at the thing you're ignoring.
Now, some people joke at the idea of Messi being god, but afaik he's a human, and still bound by the laws of physics, space and time, if he shows up more at midfield spaces than Ronaldo, he needs to spend time at the spot of the pitch, therefore he does indeed play deeper, you can't scapegoat your way out of that, no matter how many turns you want to make us take.
Those graphs are a poor stat representation, since they don't show any scale, display heat pressence in only three color gradients, yellow, orange, and red, and probably only take into account touches, not their actual position through the game.
We don't know if red is just a high % of their actions on at that spot, if it's compared to the league mean, team mean, or just a set amount of raw variables you can achieve to be shown as active red.
But as always, it's easier, anyone that watches both teams on a regular basis already knows where Messi and Ronaldo play, that Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him and Ronaldo from 0 to 3, because even heatmaps are relative as to how higher up a player is playing relatively to his teammates and the zone of the pitch his team usually controls.
He's regularly the furthest player on the team.. It literally happened 2 days ago for fecks sake.
I think it's fair to say that off the ball, Messi does what he wants, he will stay up and he'll only press when he wants to. On the ball however he does drop deep and pick the ball up from midfield and will often have 2 to 4/5 team mates ahead of him.'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him'
I mean it's such a blatant and obvious lie... what can I even say to that other than laugh at it?
You literally chose the only game where he played further back
Fine, let's go for the first game in your list then, which claims Suarez and Messi played right alongside each other.. the Getafe game.You literally chose the only game where he played further back
People who say he's been playing in midfield or that he plays a lot deeper than Ronaldo are wrong. He drops deep to get the ball, but on average he's not there often which was what was being claimed
Perhaps don't put all your convictions in apps and graphics and stats and watch the games instead. Messi plays a lot deeper than Ronaldo - it's not a myth and all the laughing smileys in the world you and Cal dish out won't change what most rational people already know.Then those people need to start watching the stats and the game better instead of saying stupid things... not that I think you even believe in what you're saying. 'Messi usually has from 2 to 4 or even 5 teammates ahead of him'
No, the app is right. You just took the area of where he's playing which was what was talked about to where he gets the ball from open play only... That's the case for most players that they get the ball with more players ahead of them, obviously. It doesn't mean they play deeper than their teammates and Messi doesn't. As it's proven already.
I have barely missed one Barcelona game, so thanks. I do watch the games. Relying on stats to make a point is a lot better than pretending something is true or creating some irrelevant measure with a miniscule sample size to prove yourself right. I wasn't even the one to bring up the heat maps either.
I’ve done a Noel Edmonds and asked the Cosmos for your sentiment to be heeded and world peace. I used to ask for just world peace (lest one be greedy), but this thread is also in dire, dire need.
Not sure how you can say that when we can see the clear difference in Argentina with and without Messi. They are awful without Messi. In general that makes sense, but they haven't had success in doing that. The managers don't have much time to work with their squad.
Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing Messi.
