Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Bole Top]

come on guys, Messi's wages are crazy, but they have nothing to do with Barca's incompetence in transfer market. they just don't get much even from their 40 mil. buys and, I dare to say, even from their 100 mil. players, at least not yet.

they have the money, they just spend too much of it on players that don't really give them anything. 40 mil. for Gomes, 40 mil. for Turan, 30. mil. for Alcacer... I don't understand the point of Cillessen. they paid 20 mil. to have reserve goalkeeper that plays 2 league games in 2 years, while Madrid just have some cheap, unknown goalkeeper like everybody else. very few could even name him.

some of Madrid's best performers weren't expensive at all, like Isco, Casemiro and Asensio, not to mention they still get much from some of their most criticized players like Benzema or Bale.

they need more transfers like Umtiti, players who give you much but aren't yet that known so you don't need to pay fortune for them. they have been doing the opposite for quite a few years. the money isn't an issue, if anything, they obviously have too much of it when they can afford to do that.

 

[Zehner]

To answer your last paragraph, that is normal. If you're the star player you get more pressure. That's a good thing. Messi's the star and captain of a team that keep crumbling in big moments, of course he's going to get a lot of criticism. If the results are good you get all the love, if the results are bad you get all the blame. It was the same for Ronaldo and Eusebio was to Ronaldo what Maradona is to Messi, there's the difference that Eusebio never criticized Ronaldo but Benfica and older fans certainly did. Messi and Ronaldo have A LOT of power in what happens for their national teams and they're more responsible for what happens to the team than just their individual perfrormances on the pitch. The criticism Messi gets from argentinians is the same criticism Ronaldo was getting from portuguese people from Queiroz' appointment until Euro 2012. Even now we won our first title ever and there are loads of portuguese people who don't like Ronaldo, the media treats him like he's the Pope but a lot of people don't.

I say Argentina are more suited to a more transition based game because their midfield obviously doesn't have the quality to control games against the teams they'll have to beat to win a World Cup.
'Pressing and counterattacking football is no clever strategy for a team that wants to win a title.' - why not? It's definitely more clever than what the hell has been going on in Argentina the past couple of years. That squad is full of players underperforming and it's not magic that all the players suddenly turn worse when playing in their shirt. Messi feels like a foreign player in that team and it seems like instead of him being the one adapting to the team, it's the team that's adapting to him. They slow the game down way too often like they're Barcelona but then to break down teams Messi looks like he's on a different wave length to everyone else. Sometimes it works because he's obviously great and it may work in the World Cup too but the truth is it fails to get the best out of that squad, then you have people claiming Messi has a lot of responsabilities and he's carrying the team when there's no reason why he'd have to do that. Messi playing the role he's been playing is not a good thing for the team.

Of course that's just the way it is and star players have to live with this pressure. I didn't want to imply it should be otherwise (although one could and probably should mention that the press in Argentina has been worringly harsh with Messi), I was just illustrating that Messi gets just as much criticism as Ronaldo. At least as a footballer. Cristiano has of course a much more polarzizing character and thus gets more criticism and banter for his general behavior but that's a different story.

Regarding Argentina's tactics: Well, international football has definitely been dominated by possession-oriented teams. Spain and Germany won the last two WCs, Spain two additional ECs with this exact style. And international club football was also dominated by teams like Barca, Bayern and Madrid which all three fostered this school of thought (yes, Madrid is very adaptable, but the core of their team is the possession-oriented midfield axis). It is the best way to turn your individual qualitative advantage into countable results. I also do not think Argentina really played possession oriented football, they simply never had a clear approach. But I believe Messi would fit into a pressing/counterattacking team. Enrique's Barca actively lured the opponent in their own half in order to create space for counters. He is not a player like Xavi, Iniesta or Busquets who need this style in order to flourish but can also play different styles since he has the physical abilities, too. I mean, he is brillant in tight spaces and opening up crowded defences but is deadly if you give him space, too.

Besides that, I have to disagree when you say that Argentina's players are suited to a counterattacking style. Their midfielders may lack the quality for a Pep system (although I think that Biglia, Banega/Pastore/Lo Celso and Dybala would make a pretty good possession midfield) but they are definitely no players for an intense pressing and quick transition approach. They have no Vidals, Casemiros, Kantes, Khediras, Kokes etc. and their forwards are typically technically gifted and quite fast in the first few meters but not lightning quick in covering greater distances.

 

[MrEleson]

Messi has won 4 though and wouldn't surprise me if he adds another.

He was only really important in winning 3 though. I would give CR a 5-3 lead as he was the talisman in every single one of his wins.

 

[FujiVice]

Real Madrid in the last 5 years - 4 Champions Leagues
Man Utd (how many years?) - 3 Champions Leagues

Jonathan Greening - 1
Chelsea - 1

 

[Daysleeper]

He was only really important in winning 3 though. I would give CR a 5-3 lead as he was the talisman in every single one of his wins.

Then when it comes to international play, it's still 0-0 since Ronaldo was a complete non factor in the Euro Final and only had 3 good matches that entire tournament.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Then when it comes to international play, it's still 0-0 since Ronaldo was a complete non factor in the Euro Final and only had 3 good matches that entire tournament.

 

[Cal?]

If Messi played that badly in a final, Barcelona would likely lose.

Messi played even more badly in many QFs, and Barca did lose, many times

 

[Cal?]

Messi has won 4 though and wouldn't surprise me if he adds another.

Perhaps Messi can surprise everyone by making the SF first next season

 

[Cal?]

I am honestly shocked the number of the Messi brigade who have come back to this thread after Ronaldo completed the historic achievement of the CL 3-peat.

That’s something that Messi will never be able to achieve.

 

[Treble]

Hope someone else win the next Ballon d'Or because this debate has become exceedingly tedious.

 

[midnightmare]

Saying that Ronaldo is anonymous if he doesn't put the ball in the back of the net while it's the opposite for Messi is just not true. The difference there is if Ronaldo plays a few sideways passes he's anonymous, if Messi plays a few sideways passes then he's part of the build up. There are dozens of games in the past few years where Ronaldo was the man of the match without scoring a goal. It is also true that those games are getting rarer but when you score more goals than anyone else in the world it's only natural.

Absolutely. This whole "he's anonymous if he doesn't score" stuff really grates. I assume most of these comments come from people who have never been to a stadium to watch him live. What's most interesting about Ronaldo is his runs and how he creates space. That's also why Benzema continues to be so highly-rated by the Madrid managers despite his poor returns (and admittedly often-very-poor finishing). I'll restrict myself to the last game I saw him play in live - the Clasico at Barca earlier this month (the 2-2 draw in which Ronaldo played just the first half). His impact was immense and clearly visible to me in the stadium. For one move, Real started a counter with Ronaldo out wide to the right and Benzema to the left. As the ball moved (at pace), Ronaldo cut across (moving forward too) to the left and Benzema moved central. Following which Benzema moved to the right and Ronaldo cut to the middle. Benzema and Ronaldo touched the ball twice each in the whole move, yet when they did, they were both in space and the defenders were scrambling. Once Ronaldo went off, in H2, the Real team was far more static and looked far less mobile and sharp in attack. A great player - specially forward - doesn't need too many touches to create great impact. What we lack in attack isn't the number of touches we take, but the movement. That's what creates space, opens defences and creates options for the player with the ball.

Ronaldo economizes movement, true, but that's something I applaud. In every attack, Ronaldo does draw at least one (and frequently more) opponent to a spot he wants him in. Whether Ronaldo even gets the ball is secondary from here. Easy to sit and watch the game on TV and say he "was anonymous apart from the goal" in El Clasico, but at the stadium, even my Barca-supporting mate admitted that H2 was just not the same and that Ronaldo was the difference.

Then when it comes to international play, it's still 0-0 since Ronaldo was a complete non factor in the Euro Final and only had 3 good matches that entire tournament.

Yeah - because someone who doesn't impact the final clearly did nothing at all in getting the win - even if the entire squad said he was the main factor and driver for the team etc. Just like Keane and Scholes deserve no kudos for our UCL win in 1999... After all, they were non-factors in the Final... Eh?

 

[In Rainbows]

Perhaps Messi can surprise everyone by making the SF first next season

Hopefully his teammates can win those games when he has bad games similar to how Real Madrid did against Bayern when Ronaldo sucked.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Messi played even more badly in many QFs, and Barca did lose, many times

Messi has never played bad enough to be the worst player in a Barca shirt in a given game.

Unlike Ronaldo, who was arguably Real's worst player at the final.

 

[Cal?]

Messi has never played bad enough to be the worst player in a Barca shirt in a given game.

Unlike Ronaldo, who was arguably Real's worst player at the final.

That's a ridiculous argument that only Messi fans will make, how could he possibly been have worse than Isco or Carvahal? Then there are a number who performed to a similar level.

 

[Zehner]

I am honestly shocked the number of the Messi brigade who have come back to this thread after Ronaldo completed the historic achievement of the CL 3-peat.

That’s something that Messi will never be able to achieve.

Who cares, honestly? Being anonymous against Bayern and Liverpool has definitely not changed my opinion but confirmed it. Currently, Ronaldo has simply played more seasons for the best team in the world which is why he has more CL titles to his belt. But this still doesn't make him better than Messi.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

What’s worse, blowing a 4-1 Ballon d’Or lead or a 3-1 CL lead?



2011:
Messi - 3 CL’s
Ronaldo - 1 CL

2018:
Ronaldo 5 CL’s
Messi 4 CL’s


2012:
Messi - 4 BdO’s
Ronaldo - 1 BdO

2018:
Ronaldo - 5 BdO’s (very much on the verge of his 6th)
Messi - 5 BdO’s



...throw in Messi’s international failures and Cristiano’s Euro win and that’s all anyone really has to know about who’s been better.

Messi leached off of Pep’s system (which to an extent still exists at Barca today) and great players like Xavi to do all the heavy lifting for him. He was just 1 of many pieces there. Ronaldo is THEE piece. Not a coincidence Messi has slowed down since the old Barca guard has slowly left. He relied on them and it’ll be even more evident next year when Iniesta won’t be there. Don’t believe me? Just watch for yourself...and then I bet the Messi fanboys will say he has an inferior team when in reality starter-for-starter Barca have the “better” or more quality starters.

 

[altodevil]

Messi leached off of Pep’s system (which to an extent still exists at Barca today) and great players like Xavi to do all the heavy lifting for him.

Modric/Kroos is not a million miles from Xavi/Iniesta so I that's a terrible argument.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Modric/Kroos is not a million miles from Xavi/Iniesta so I that's a terrible argument.

Are you honestly saying Modric/Kroos are on par with Xavi/Iniesta?


If so, I’ll definitely be at a loss for words

 

[In Rainbows]

leached.

Ahh that's right. Messi leached off his teammates when he won his champions league titles, but that Ronaldo? Nope. He definitely did not leach when his teammates have won him 3 of the finals where he has been anonymous and this year included a personal worst against Bayern.

Oh wait, there's that Euros finals too where he was injured. That Ronaldo sure didn't leach by Vancouver's standards, which is "Ronaldo is the best. Ronaldo is the best. Ronaldo is the best."

 

[altodevil]

Are you honestly saying Modric/Kroos are on par with Xavi/Iniesta?


If so, I’ll definitely be at a loss for words

Read what I put again, this time do it slowly so you can understand.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Read what I put again, this time do it slowly so you can understand.

Still makes no sense as they are worlds a part...comparing some of the greatest players of all time to the Madrid duo atm

 

[Cal?]

Who cares, honestly? Being anonymous against Bayern and Liverpool has definitely not changed my opinion but confirmed it. Currently, Ronaldo has simply played more seasons for the best team in the world which is why he has more CL titles to his belt. But this still doesn't make him better than Messi.

Oh, so Barca were oh so poor in 2010? How about that time Messi blasted the penalty over the bar vs Chelsea? Messi certainly wasn't annonymous, he actively blasted them out of the CL.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Ahh that's right. Messi leached off his teammates when he won his champions league titles, but that Ronaldo? Nope. He definitely did not leach when his teammates have won him 3 of the finals where he has been anonymous and this year included a personal worst against Bayern.

Oh wait, there's that Euros finals too where he was injured. That Ronaldo sure didn't leach by Vancouver's standards, which is "Ronaldo is the best. Ronaldo is the best. Ronaldo is the best."

You gotta reach the finals to win the finals. Cristiano carries them there no questions asked.

 

[RobinLFC]

...throw in Messi’s international failures and Cristiano’s Euro win and that’s all anyone really has to know about who’s been better.

Greatness isn't defined by your team's achievements, you should know that as an American sports follower.

Is Kane a better player than Ovechkin? Feck no, even though he has three Cups more.

 

[In Rainbows]

You gotta reach the finals to win the finals. Cristiano carries them there no questions asked.

That doesn't explain Bayern does it? What's the difference between Bayern's 2 legs vs how Messi lost? The key difference is that 1 team weathered the drop in performance.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Greatness isn't defined by your team's achievements, you should know that as an American sports follower.

Is Kane a better player than Ovechkin? Feck no, even though he has three Cups more.

It’s a big factor. Ovechkin is arguably the greatest pure goal scorer in NHL history. However he doesn’t have the label of a winner and why I’m sure you know this is a huge series for his legacy.

And trust me, I know all about that. The Sedins couldn’t get one in 2011 and that’s something they can never let go of.

 

[MrEleson]

Then when it comes to international play, it's still 0-0 since Ronaldo was a complete non factor in the Euro Final and only had 3 good matches that entire tournament.

Still scores or assisted 2/3rds of his teams goals in getting to said final. Try again.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Still scores or assisted 2/3rds of his teams goals in getting to said final. Try again.

^

...people are so salty lol

 

[Cal?]

Then when it comes to international play, it's still 0-0 since Ronaldo was a complete non factor in the Euro Final and only had 3 good matches that entire tournament.

On the other hand Messi certainly wasn't annonymous, he actively sabotaged their chances with his awful penalty taking.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

“I would just like to take this opportunity to apologise.........






TO ABSOLUTELY NO ONE! THE 5 TIME CL KING DOES WHAT THE FECK HE WANTS!”

 

[In Rainbows]

My god you must be 15 years old

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Absolutely. This whole "he's anonymous if he doesn't score" stuff really grates. I assume most of these comments come from people who have never been to a stadium to watch him live. What's most interesting about Ronaldo is his runs and how he creates space. That's also why Benzema continues to be so highly-rated by the Madrid managers despite his poor returns (and admittedly often-very-poor finishing). I'll restrict myself to the last game I saw him play in live - the Clasico at Barca earlier this month (the 2-2 draw in which Ronaldo played just the first half). His impact was immense and clearly visible to me in the stadium. For one move, Real started a counter with Ronaldo out wide to the right and Benzema to the left. As the ball moved (at pace), Ronaldo cut across (moving forward too) to the left and Benzema moved central. Following which Benzema moved to the right and Ronaldo cut to the middle. Benzema and Ronaldo touched the ball twice each in the whole move, yet when they did, they were both in space and the defenders were scrambling. Once Ronaldo went off, in H2, the Real team was far more static and looked far less mobile and sharp in attack. A great player - specially forward - doesn't need too many touches to create great impact. What we lack in attack isn't the number of touches we take, but the movement. That's what creates space, opens defences and creates options for the player with the ball.

Ronaldo economizes movement, true, but that's something I applaud. In every attack, Ronaldo does draw at least one (and frequently more) opponent to a spot he wants him in. Whether Ronaldo even gets the ball is secondary from here. Easy to sit and watch the game on TV and say he "was anonymous apart from the goal" in El Clasico, but at the stadium, even my Barca-supporting mate admitted that H2 was just not the same and that Ronaldo was the difference.

He played well in that first half in the Clasico, got a good goal and was sharp off the ball, but you've just written an essay about a player running from right to left. I think that tells you enough about Ronaldo's abilities on the ball currently. Fact is, he is just a goalscorer these days and while his movement off the ball of course helps his team, it doesn't excuse him misplacing simple passes, missing chances, being unable to beat a man and getting dispossessed as he did vs. Bayern and Liverpool - outside the box he has an average skillset whereas Messi is the best or among the best in pretty much every attacking attribute.

I think it tells you a lot that in the Ronaldo transfer thread, despite being a legend here, the majority don't want him back, with many posters pointing out that he wouldn't be as effective because we wouldn't be able to create the chances for him.

 

[midnightmare]

He played well in that first half in the Clasico, got a good goal and was sharp off the ball, but you've just written an essay about a player running from right to left. I think that tells you enough about Ronaldo's abilities on the ball currently. Fact is, he is just a goalscorer these days and while his movement off the ball of course helps his team, it doesn't excuse him misplacing simple passes, missing chances, being unable to beat a man and getting dispossessed as he did vs. Bayern and Liverpool - outside the box he has an average skillset whereas Messi is the best or among the best in pretty much every attacking attribute.

I think it tells you a lot that in the Ronaldo transfer thread, despite being a legend here, the majority don't want him back, with many posters pointing out that he wouldn't be as effective because we wouldn't be able to create the chances for him.

Actually, I used that as an example of what people miss, not as his only skill or value-add. They key is that Real looked much worse in H2!

As for the Ronaldo thread, I too voted against getting him back but that wasn’t because I think he’s useless. Merely that at his age+wages+our state, it doesn’t represent the best deal for us. It doesn’t mean that everyone who said we shouldn’t buy him back feels he’s an Inzaghi (no disrespect to Pippo).

 

[Zehner]

Oh, so Barca were oh so poor in 2010? How about that time Messi blasted the penalty over the bar vs Chelsea? Messi certainly wasn't annonymous, he actively blasted them out of the CL.

No, he didn't. Messi never had games for Barca that were nearly as bad as Cristiano's last four matches. That's just your perception bias. But Ronaldo's team mates helped him out. If Marcelo wouldn't have scored against Bayern, we would have talked how Ronaldo absolutely fecked up in front of the goal and did nothing else whatsoever. He was downright atrocious and nothing short of a liability for Madrid in those games. That anyone can come to the conclusion that those matches should confirm that he is the best of his generation or even in history is just insane.

“I would just like to take this opportunity to apologise.........






TO ABSOLUTELY NO ONE! THE 5 TIME CL KING DOES WHAT THE FECK HE WANTS!”

He indeed played like a real king. Let others do the work and then took all the glory for himself. He can be glad his peasants stepped up for him again.

 

[Peyroteo]

Who cares, honestly? Being anonymous against Bayern and Liverpool has definitely not changed my opinion but confirmed it. Currently, Ronaldo has simply played more seasons for the best team in the world which is why he has more CL titles to his belt. But this still doesn't make him better than Messi.

Madrid haven't been the best team in the world this season or in 2016. Still won it. If they had any other player in the world I'm convinced they don't reach the semis. What usually happens in this Madrid team and what happened throughout the season is if Ronaldo isn't scoring or if he isn't playing they lack goals and look fairly toothless. They did score 7 goals in the last 3 CL games but that was still true. The difference is Marcelo and Bale had moments of brilliance and they took advantage of some really weird mistakes (Karius x 2, Rafinha, Ulreich). You're pretending they don't need Ronaldo to do what they did but this team without Ronaldo wouldn't be half as good as they are, especially this season.

It's not just about winning it either, Ronaldo's teams have consistently gotten further than Messi's team in the Champions League and it's not a coincidence. Ronaldo's been in 6 finals, Messi's been in 3. Since 2006/07 for Ronaldo it's been 5 trophies, 1 final, 5 semifinals and 1 round of 16 exit. It's insane, especially when you go through them year by year and watch his importance in every single campaign. Reaching 11 semifinals in 12 years... Liverpool have reached the semis 10 times in all their history, United and Juve 12, Milan 13, Barcelona 16.

Greatness isn't defined by your team's achievements, you should know that as an American sports follower.

Is Kane a better player than Ovechkin? Feck no, even though he has three Cups more.

Team achievements alone do not define greatness but they most definitely matter, especially when you're the star of that team.

 

[Semiarty]

I'm not really sure if some people posting here (not even counting in the usual suspects) are trolling or really are so thick. Winning more team trophies makes one player better than the other? Are you for real? I guess they are of the same ilk that just look at stats on soccerway.com and decide who had a better game on a given day. Jesus christ the state of this thread.

 

[Peyroteo]

He indeed played like a real king. Let others do the work and then took all the glory for himself. He can be glad his peasants stepped up for him again.

Maybe if other kings weren't greedy enough to take the kingdom's earnings onto himself they could have had more and better peasants and reached glory too

 

[RobinLFC]

Team achievements alone do not define greatness but they most definitely matter, especially when you're the star of that team.

The difference between them is too small for it to matter in this discussion. It would be a factor if Messi had like 1 CL and 2 Ballon d'Ors, but he's a proven winner as much as Ronaldo is. Messi had a better WC '14 than Ronaldo's EC '16 yet a lot of people credit Ronaldo because of Portugal's win and use it as a slight on Messi that he's never won the WC, but that's just bullshit. You're basically reasoning that an Eder goal, or France's incapability to finish off a Ronaldo-less Portugal, or Higuain bottling chances have an impact on the Messi/Ronaldo discussion.

 

[Zehner]

Madrid haven't been the best team in the world this season or in 2016. Still won it. If they had any other player in the world I'm convinced they don't reach the semis. What usually happens in this Madrid team and what happened throughout the season is if Ronaldo isn't scoring or if he isn't playing they lack goals and look fairly toothless. They did score 7 goals in the last 3 CL games but that was still true. The difference is Marcelo and Bale had moments of brilliance and they took advantage of some really weird mistakes (Karius x 2, Rafinha, Ulreich). You're pretending they don't need Ronaldo to do what they did but this team without Ronaldo wouldn't be half as good as they are, especially this season.

It's not just about winning it either, Ronaldo's teams have consistently gotten further than Messi's team in the Champions League and it's not a coincidence. Ronaldo's been in 6 finals, Messi's been in 3. Since 2006/07 for Ronaldo it's been 5 trophies, 1 final, 5 semifinals and 1 round of 16 exit. It's insane, especially when you go through them year by year and watch his importance in every single campaign. Reaching 11 semifinals in 12 years... Liverpool have reached the semis 10 times in all their history, United and Juve 12, Milan 13, Barcelona 16.

That is primarily because Barca's prime lasted for around three years and after that, the team was nowhere near their former glory and far too dependent on individual quality. That Madrid reached the semifinals that often has much more factors than Ronaldo. This team would be the best in the world on paper even without him. They have by far the best center midfield, the best full backs and two of the worlds top 10 center backs and on top of that Isco, Bale, Asensio, Casemiro and Benzema.

And I don't think that Ronaldo is that important for this team. Of course he is still the best in what he does but replace him with a world class striker and the guy would end up with lots and lots of goals, too. He isn't his former irreplaceable self anymore.

Maybe if other kings weren't greedy enough to take the kingdom's earnings onto himself they could have had more and better peasants and reached glory too

We are talking about how they are on the pitch. Messi demanding more money doesn't make him a lesser player.