Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Cal?]

No, he didn't. Messi never had games for Barca that were nearly as bad as Cristiano's last four matches. That's just your perception bias. But Ronaldo's team mates helped him out. If Marcelo wouldn't have scored against Bayern, we would have talked how Ronaldo absolutely fecked up in front of the goal and did nothing else whatsoever. He was downright atrocious and nothing short of a liability for Madrid in those games. That anyone can come to the conclusion that those matches should confirm that he is the best of his generation or even in history is just insane.

That’s just your opinion. I can name plenty of games where Messi was a lot worse than Ronaldo was against Bayern or Liverpool.

The fact is you see Messi do a flick or two during the game and your can’t wait to proclaim him the best player ever whilst Ronaldo scores a hat-trick and you say, meh, if you take away the goal he did nothing.

 

[Peyroteo]

That is primarily because Barca's prime lasted for around three years and after that, the team was nowhere near their former glory and far too dependent on individual quality. That Madrid reached the semifinals that often has much more factors than Ronaldo. This team would be the best in the world on paper even without him. They have by far the best center midfield, the best full backs and two of the worlds top 10 center backs and on top of that Isco, Bale, Asensio, Casemiro and Benzema.

And I don't think that Ronaldo is that important for this team. Of course he is still the best in what he does but replace him with a world class striker and the guy would end up with lots and lots of goals, too. He isn't his former irreplaceable self anymore.



We are talking about how they are on the pitch. Messi demanding more money doesn't make him a lesser player.

What??? They haven't even been the best in the world with him in the damn team. Their midfield has been terrible all year, they can't control a game to save their lives. Carvajal has been the best right back in the world this season? What? Even Alba has performed consistently better than Marcelo for example. Rakitic's had a better year than Kroos, Busquets has been much better than Casemiro...

Trade Ronaldo for any striker in the world and they don't get to the semis of the Champions League. Put him in Bayern for Lewandowski, in Barcelona for Suarez or in Paris for Cavani and it's not hard to predict what happens. If they won then suddenly those teams would have the best midfield in the world, the best fullbacks, etc..

The guy scores more goals than anyone in world football by a considerable margin. For club and country.

 

[RobinLFC]

The guy scores more goals than anyone in world football by a considerable margin.

Fake news.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

What??? They haven't even been the best in the world with him in the damn team. Their midfield has been terrible all year, they can't control a game to save their lives. Carvajal has been the best right back in the world this season? What? Even Alba has performed consistently better than Marcelo for example. Rakitic's had a better year than Kroos, Busquets has been much better than Casemiro...

Trade Ronaldo for any striker in the world and they don't get to the semis of the Champions League. Put him in Bayern for Lewandowski, in Barcelona for Suarez or in Paris for Cavani and it's not hard to predict what happens. If they won then suddenly those teams would have the best midfield in the world, the best fullbacks, etc..

The guy scores more goals than anyone in world football by a considerable margin. For club and country.

Does he?

2018

Messi 29 ronaldo 30

2017

Messi 54 ronaldo 53

2016

Messi 59 ronaldo 55

2015

Messi 52 ronaldo 57

2014

Messi 50 ronaldo 56

2013

Messi 45 ronaldo 69

2012

Messi 91 ronaldo 63

Hardly a considerable margin is it?

 

[Peyroteo]

The difference between them is too small for it to matter in this discussion. It would be a factor if Messi had like 1 CL and 2 Ballon d'Ors, but he's a proven winner as much as Ronaldo is.

Has he? Since 2006/07 which is the season they both made a big jump to being the best in the world and started being the stars of their teams Ronaldo's won 5 Champions Leagues, 1 Euros and 5 league titles. Messi's won 3 Champions Leagues and 7 league titles. I'd say that's a considerable difference.

Messi had a better WC '14 than Ronaldo's EC '16 yet a lot of people credit Ronaldo because of Portugal's win and use it as a slight on Messi that he's never won the WC, but that's just bullshit. You're basically reasoning that an Eder goal, or France's incapability to finish off a Ronaldo-less Portugal, or Higuain bottling chances have an impact on the Messi/Ronaldo discussion.

Because they do. If Maradona's teammates miss the chances they had in 1986 final and they lose Maradona doesn't get rated as highly, if Ray Allen misses that three against the Spurs LeBron doesn't get rated as highly, etc. Either directly or indirectly they do have influence on what their teammates do.

 

[Peyroteo]

Fake news.

No... just the blatant truth. Who needs less minutes in world football to score a goal? It's not close either.

 

[Sky1981]

Cant we all agree both are 9.5 players.

Whichever in your heart deserves to be 10 so be it.

Just because the other is 0.5 marginally better doesnt diminished the other.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

It is. And I'm talking about today, not 2012. You don't mention the number of minutes or the number of games because you don't care what's true or not.

And I'm talking about the games and goals that matter. Messi yesterday scoring an hattrick in a friendly against Haiti doesn't tell me anything. The numbers will be there anyway.

Yeah ronaldo only scores goals that matter, right?

 

[Aidan Azar]

A couple of good games in the RO16 and 1 good game in the quarterfinals of the UCL is not enough to deserve a Ballon D 'Or!. And if it is, the award no longer means anything.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Peyroteo do you think ronaldo was the best player in the world for season 17/18?

 

[Peyroteo]

Yeah ronaldo only scores goals that matter, right?

No, he just scores more of them than anyone else

 

[Peyroteo]

@Peyroteo do you think ronaldo was the best player in the world for season 17/18?

No, Salah was

 

[Deleted member 101472]

No, he just scores more of them

Run along and collect these stats for me then. How many times have the two of them scored the equalizing or winning goal in a game. Because that’s really the best measurement of what matters.

Chop chop

 

[RobinLFC]

No... just the blatant truth. Who needs less minutes in world football to score a goal? It's not close either.

Messi was Europe’s top scorer this season IIRC, so no Ronaldo doesn’t score more goals by a considerable margin.

 

[Zehner]

What??? They haven't even been the best in the world with him in the damn team. Their midfield has been terrible all year, they can't control a game to save their lives. Carvajal has been the best right back in the world this season? What? Even Alba has performed consistently better than Marcelo for example. Rakitic's had a better year than Kroos, Busquets has been much better than Casemiro...

Trade Ronaldo for any striker in the world and they don't get to the semis of the Champions League. Put him in Bayern for Lewandowski, in Barcelona for Suarez or in Paris for Cavani and it's not hard to predict what happens. If they won then suddenly those teams would have the best midfield in the world, the best fullbacks, etc..

The guy scores more goals than anyone in world football by a considerable margin. For club and country.

I've said on paper. That this team didn't really live up to his standards is correct but on each position in the team they have a player who has a rightful claim of being the best in the world. This status doesn't change due to one "bad" year. Take Ronaldo out and put Lewandowski, Kane, Cavani, Higuain or whoever in there and this team would still be considered the best in the world and anything bar the semis would be a huge disappointment.

It is essentially a give and take between Ronaldo and Madrid. Of course he scores more than anyone else but it also true that probably any striker in the world would score more goals if he would play in Cristiano's position given how many chances Madrid creates. They would probably not match Cristiano's unbelievable record but would still achieve very respectable numbers.

The funny thing is, a few weeks ago, all of you were completely dead serious how important goals on the most important stages are. Now Ronaldo did perform atrocious in the four most important games of this season and suddenly, it is all about how he took them to the semifinals.

 

[adexkola]

I'm not really sure if some people posting here (not even counting in the usual suspects) are trolling or really are so thick. Winning more team trophies makes one player better than the other? Are you for real? I guess they are of the same ilk that just look at stats on soccerway.com and decide who had a better game on a given day. Jesus christ the state of this thread.

You're best off euro-stepping around the usual suspects.

 

[Peyroteo]

The funny thing is, a few weeks ago, all of you were completely dead serious how important goals on the most important stages are. Now Ronaldo did perform atrocious in the four most important games of this season and suddenly, it is all about how he took them to the semifinals.

No, he does deserve criticism for not scoring in the past 3 games. I've said that already and his performances in the last 3 games are the difference between being the runaway best player in the world for the season to just being alongside the rest.

Calling those performances atrocious is hilarious, then you call great to the guys who played worse than he did. If that's atrocious Messi's had plenty of atrocious performances in the past year. Also, 4 most important games? Which Real Madrid player played better than him against Juve at the Bernabeu?

This is what I mean, what player in the history of football has been called atrocious after a performance where they've arguably been their team's best player? You hold Ronaldo to higher standards than every other player in history which I think it's pretty telling.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi was Europe’s top scorer this season IIRC, so no Ronaldo doesn’t score more goals by a considerable margin.

He does, Messi just plays an absurd amount of minutes in games he shouldn't be playing.

1 goal every 83 minutes for Ronaldo. 1 goal every 100 minutes for Messi. Plenty of players scored goals at a better rate than Messi, none of them played as many minutes.

 

[Renegade]

No, Salah was

Messi does what Salah did this season and much more.

I think people say Salah because he’s a fresh player and his expectations were lower at the start of the season.

 

[Peyroteo]

Messi does what Salah did this season and much more.

He really doesn't.

 

[MS4]

Its funny how Messi wins every statistics this year but Ronaldo, yea Ronaldo...hm Ronaldo's Team won the CL the 3rd time in a row

 

[matherto]

Messi was Europe’s top scorer this season IIRC, so no Ronaldo doesn’t score more goals by a considerable margin.

One more goal than Ronaldo in ten more games.

 

[RobinLFC]

One more goal than Ronaldo in ten more games.

One could argue that durability is a factor when deciding who's better.

 

[Peyroteo]

The idea that Ronaldo's only effective because of his club is an interesting one right before a World Cup where he'll be playing with worse teammates around him than Messi's ever played with in his whole career.

 

[Daysleeper]

Madrid have the best midfield in the world. It’s an absolute luxury to be anonymous in 3 CL matches in a row and to have your teammates carry you through

 

[Peyroteo]

Madrid have the best midfield in the world. It’s an absolute luxury to be anonymous in 3 CL matches in a row and to have your teammates carry you through

The best midfield in the world got dominated by 3 different midfields in the Champions League and barely controlled one single match for the whole season.

In 2016/17 they were the best midfield in the world. In 2017/18 they weren't.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Madrid have the best midfield in the world. It’s an absolute luxury to be anonymous in 3 CL matches in a row and to have your teammates carry you through

So did Barcelona a few years ago when Messi used to be in hot form. It works both ways.

And what is this obsession with people calling out Ronaldo for being anonymous in 3 CL matches? Its like people forget about his performances in previous knockout stages and the fact that he is UCL top scorer. By this logic, Messi has been anonymous for years, I don't remember him doing anything in knockout stages for past 4-5 years.

 

[AgentP]

Is there any chance of Portugal playing Argentina at the WC? What is the earliest possible round that they can meet?

 

[Peyroteo]

Is there any chance of Portugal playing Argentina at the WC? What is the earliest possible round that they can meet?

Quarter finals. Only if they both finish first in their groups or if they both finish second.

It's pretty much impossible.

 

[AgentP]

Quarter finals. Only if they both finish first in their groups or if they both finish second.

It's pretty much impossible.

Cheers mate. Can't see Portugal finishing ahead of Spain in their group.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

So did Barcelona a few years ago when Messi used to be in hot form. It works both ways.

And what is this obsession with people calling out Ronaldo for being anonymous in 3 CL matches? Its like people forget about his performances in previous knockout stages and the fact that he is UCL top scorer. By this logic, Messi has been anonymous for years, I don't remember him doing anything in knockout stages for past 4-5 years.

Yeah except Messi was seldom anonymous and was winning MOTM awards in CL semifinals/finals. Personally I think it's unfair as that was Messi in his prime and Ronaldo definitely isn't - but some people believe Ronaldo is a better than Messi currently and it's all based on his performances (or rather goals) in the CL so when he fails to do so it is pointed out as there is no other argument for Ronaldo being better than Messi.

 

[Ishdalar]

Messi played even more badly in many QFs, and Barca did lose, many times

What’s worse, blowing a 4-1 Ballon d’Or lead or a 3-1 CL lead?



2011:
Messi - 3 CL’s
Ronaldo - 1 CL

2018:
Ronaldo 5 CL’s
Messi 4 CL’s


2012:
Messi - 4 BdO’s
Ronaldo - 1 BdO

2018:
Ronaldo - 5 BdO’s (very much on the verge of his 6th)
Messi - 5 BdO’s



...throw in Messi’s international failures and Cristiano’s Euro win and that’s all anyone really has to know about who’s been better.

Messi leached off of Pep’s system (which to an extent still exists at Barca today) and great players like Xavi to do all the heavy lifting for him. He was just 1 of many pieces there. Ronaldo is THEE piece. Not a coincidence Messi has slowed down since the old Barca guard has slowly left. He relied on them and it’ll be even more evident next year when Iniesta won’t be there. Don’t believe me? Just watch for yourself...and then I bet the Messi fanboys will say he has an inferior team when in reality starter-for-starter Barca have the “better” or more quality starters.

The final act of the delusion.

As Cal said, when Messi plays bad, Barcelona loses, when Ronaldo does the same, Real win 3-1 vs Liverpool.

Why wasn't he "THEE piece" when Real failed to reach a UCL final in his first 4 seasons?. Surely Messi got to win 3 UCL as the star because of Iniesta + Messi, but it isn't the same for Ronaldo, 4 seasons without a final with Arbeloa, Khedira, Alonso, Ozil and Di Maria, but 4 titles in 5 seasons with Casemiro, Modric, Kroos, Bale doesn't point at this being a team sport, is just that he got better with age.

 

[Ishdalar]

So did Barcelona a few years ago when Messi used to be in hot form. It works both ways.

And what is this obsession with people calling out Ronaldo for being anonymous in 3 CL matches? Its like people forget about his performances in previous knockout stages and the fact that he is UCL top scorer. By this logic, Messi has been anonymous for years, I don't remember him doing anything in knockout stages for past 4-5 years.

If you don't actually watch the games, and base your opinions on the scoreboard, then surely.

And even with that, you'd be forgetting that he put 3 goals on Chelsea just 3 months ago, 3 more on Arsenal 2 years ago, or that he destroyed Bayern at Semis in May 2015. So much for the exaggeration of 'him being anonymous' for the past 5 years. Then there's those games (like vs PSG and City in 2015) where he doesn't score but was a key part, anyway, no goals, totally doesn't count.

What this post shows is that people will forget you performed bad even in key games as long as your team keeps winning, and you'll be shielded by your good performances. But being the best performer in a losing team? That's ammo to criticize you, because doesn't matter if you were the best of your team, you lost, you fell short, nothing shields you.

Making those arguments the standard in the Cris vs Leo debate is just absurd, no wonder you lot get mad when other people call "nonsense" on that.

 

[Alfie092]

Who is currently favourites to win the Ballon d'or?

 

[Cal?]

Who is currently favourites to win the Ballon d'or?

Ronaldo deservedly the favourite.

https://www.oddschecker.com/football/football-specials/ballon-dor/player-of-the-year

 

[RobinLFC]

Ronaldo deservedly the favourite.

https://www.oddschecker.com/football/football-specials/ballon-dor/player-of-the-year

Less trophies than Messi (unless you count European Supercup and WC for Clubs), less goals than Messi, worse statistics than Messi, but deservedly favourite. Seems legit.

 

[Aidan Azar]

What has Ronaldo done that makes him "deservedly favourite"?.

 

[Rito]

Less trophies than Messi (unless you count European Supercup and WC for Clubs), less goals than Messi, worse statistics than Messi, but deservedly favourite. Seems legit.

UCL winner, UCL top scorer, much less minutes than messi, many more goals than messi in knock out rounds...Ya seems legit actually.

 

[Cal?]

Less trophies than Messi (unless you count European Supercup and WC for Clubs), less goals than Messi, worse statistics than Messi, but deservedly favourite. Seems legit.

Because every trophy is worth exactly the same as each other, as are each goal.

Worse stats?
Ronaldo has 44 goals from 44 matches for Real
Messi has 45 goals from 54 matches for Barca

He was the top scorer again in the biggest competition in club football and won it for a record 5th time (as many as LFC).

Very much deservedly favourite.

 

[Peyroteo]

Less trophies than Messi (unless you count European Supercup and WC for Clubs), less goals than Messi, worse statistics than Messi, but deservedly favourite. Seems legit.

Ballon D'Or is for 2018... is there any doubt who's been the best player in the world for this calendar year?

What has Ronaldo done that makes him "deservedly favourite"?.

Been the best player in the biggest club competition in the world helping his team accomplish the biggest club achievement in modern football by scoring goals at a much better rate than anyone else in the world in 2018.