Messi's peak was better, and a level above Ronaldo's.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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Just want to say I'm cheering you on!Spent hours here rebutting terrible arguments and completely stupid statements by people pretending to be unbiased that I don’t feel like leaving when they’ve so blatantly and hilariously been proven wrong
btw, is there any concern about Ronaldo's fitness? Knees or ankles? He went down late in the game, and was walking gingerly after that.
I always said Pele vs Maradona never died and this will be the same and I do enjoy watching Messi play football. It’s impossible not to do so.
But what is Ronaldos peak? This could be it and he's 33!
Didn’t hear anything about it in the press. He’s fine
Ballague is having an absolute meltdown on twitter, presumably over this, if anyone fancies a laugh
Ronaldo peaks every year. Even during decline he peaks too.
Perfect. You’ve made your point (and very well at Times) but I want you to just be the bigger man now and leave it alone.
Won't be one where he scores 73 goals.
Failures? I don't see what has Ronaldo done over Messi in these tournaments?
I want him (?) to continue to chortle away. He (?) deserves it.
He has a medal home for playing with an inferior squad in a more difficult competition.
So has Rui Patricio, does that make him on same level internationally as Ronaldo? You are far more smarter than that, Revan.
Messi has reached finals with his international team too, and was Argentina's best player in those tournaments. Ronaldo wasn't the best for his team, and Portugal won it without him. Maybe Messi should not play final and let Argentina win it without him, would that mean that he hasn't failed then?
You're making it sound like he was playing for a no team, who hasn't done anything before. Argentina (lead by Riquelme) reached the finals of Copa America when Messi started to play for Barca's main team. Next season, they reached the finals of Confederations Cup. And then in world cup (where Messi played but was in bench), they were the best team in the tournament until Pekerman subbed Riquelme. Then, with Messi in the team (arguably their best player after Riquelme), they reached the final of Copa America again.
Then Riquelme retired, and Messi took his place as the team's leader. They got humiliated from Germany in World Cup, and then in Argentina (as absolute favorites), didn't manage to reach the finals of Copa.
To Messi's credit, he improved and reached the finals in all three next tournaments but didn't manage to win one. He definitely didn't deserve Golden Ball in 2014, heck he didn't score or assist outside of the group stage, and he missed the penalty in the last Copa final.
Essentially, despite being at his peak, he didn't manage to take Argentina in the next level. And well, it is Argentina, not North Ireland, so him not winning a trophy cannot be just forgotten, unlike with George Best. He is the only all time great (next to Best and Eusebio), who hasn't won an international tournament. In the last 4 (not counting this one), Argentina was favorites in all three Copa America, and favorite/second favorite in the last world cup. There are no excuses for him not doing more to win something in international stage.
He was though. It just was cool to say that he wasn't.
They won the final without him (though many of their players and their manager mentioned his influence in the final), but they wouldn't have passed even the group stage without him (neither qualify to be fair). He essentially dragged them to the Euros with that hat-trick, then scored 2 against Hungary (both times they were losing) to send them in the next stage, then assist in the following match, followed by assist in the next match, followed by goal and assist in the semis.
Point is, both have been captain, leader and best player of their team. Ronaldo has been playing with duds, Messi with some of the best players in the world. Messi in an inferior competition. Yet, Ronaldo has won 1, while Messi hasn't. In fact, Messi is the only player in top 10 of all time (possibly Best too if you put him there but it is very debatable), who hasn't won anything in international stage. And let's not pretend that all of those players had better teammates than Messi, because it would be absolute horseshit to say so.
By dragging his team to the WC final despite the chaos of their FA and managers
Cruyff never won anything either and he played in a much better team than Messi.
There's only so much an invidual can do, winning a trophy is a team effort.
Hungary, Iceland, Austria, Croatia, Poland, Wales.
That sample of teams isn't either more difficult than what you find at the WC nor superior to Portugal.
No, he wasn't.
Did you even watch Euros and Portugal? There is really no point arguing if you think he was their best player in that tournament. He was actually one of their worst players in at least two or three games, if not the worst. He had really mixed tournament, he was embarassing at times, with some very good moments in between.He could prove on this tournament though that he has better international career than Messi, but we'll see.
To be fair to Messi, this Argentina XI is actually slightly inferior to Portugal.
Portugal fullbacks > Argentina fullbacks
Rui Patricio > Caballero/Romero
Rojo + Otamendi > Fonte and Pepe
Carvalho - Moutinho - Bruno Fernandes > Biglia, Meza, Mascherano
Argies attack > Portugals attack
Argentina has better forwards and CB's but GK,fullbacks and midfield are in Portugal's favour.
Portugal fullbacks > Argentina fullbacks
Rui Patricio > Caballero/Romero
Rojo + Otamendi > Fonte and Pepe
Carvalho - Moutinho - Bruno Fernandes > Biglia, Meza, Mascherano
Argies attack > Portugals attack
Argentina has better forwards and CB's but GK,fullbacks and midfield are in Portugal's favour.
You're right, I forgot him (no idea why, considering that he is my all time favorite player who played before my time). However, he had far less attempts (and so chances) to win it compared to Messi.
Of course, it could be discussed to death his decision for WC 78.
Portugal know how to play to their strengths and we saw that against yesterday. Defend and counter through Ronaldo. Nothing wrong with that and it's been very effective.
Ronaldo growing into his leader role and expectations of his country post Figo has been a joy to watch. He's embraced that pressure and the pressure on himself.
Ronaldo growing into his leader role and expectations of his country post Figo has been a joy to watch. He's embraced that pressure and the pressure on himself.
Without question. Ronaldo is now competing because Messi level dropped. You didn’t hear any of these clowns when Messie was winning league after league and CL’s and ballandors and outscoring Ronaldo but hey would argue that stats don’t mean anything but apparently now they have meaning.
Footballing style for me goes to Messi, just my taste in terms of dribbling and movement alongside so many other aspects.
More difficult compared to winning Copa America, of course that World Cup is more difficult to win.
Europe has better teams than South America.
Didn't do much in the Euros either though.
Shame he didn't go to 78, could have made the difference for them.
Rojo is terrible, would take Fonte and Pepe over him.
Indeed. However, Cruyff's legacy kind of suffered for not winning nothing in international stage. It has been Pele and Maradona, instead of Pele, Maradona and Cruyff. Cruyff's achievements (and performances for clubs) dwarfs those of Maradona, but because Maradona won a world cup (and Copa) and Cruyff didn't, Maradona is rated higher.
So, why should Messi's inability to win something for Argies should not be held against him?
He didn't really drag them though.
Yes he did they were shite.
The best way to determine who has the better team is look at the bookmakers odds. They're about as unbiased in terms of rating the quality of each team as you can get.
https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
The best odds for Argentina are 9-1 to win it all. The best odds for Portugal are 20-1.
You seem to forget that Messi played a WC final, unless you feel the WC is an inferior competition compared to the EC.
Not that it matters much since you don’t play against a tournament, you play against the teams on the other side of the pitch. You can face much tougher competition in the EC or CA than the WC depending on the draw and other teams results. This goes back to what I said about judging an individual player just by looking at what trophies they have won instead of actually looking at what happens on the pitch.
I rate Cruyff very highly mate, if he won 74 his performance would be rated the same as Maradona 86.
Pele was influential in 2 WCs though, don't think any player has done that.
I remember feeling at the time that Mascherano was at least as important as Messi in them getting to the WC final in 2016. My recollection was that he was absolutely immense.
Not counting Messi and Ronaldo (cause we are comparing their teammates) and looking only at their last transfer (because we are comparing them currently), the starting lineup of Portugal yesterday cost around 140M euros, while that of Argies today cost around 190m Euros. If you look at the bench, Higuain himself cost more than the entire bench of Portugal.
If you have to face Spain, England, France, Italy and Germany to win a Euro then sure, South America doesn't have that amount of superstar-filled teams.
Thing is, Portugal didn't have that route in the tournament, if you really think that Wales, Hungary or Austria are superior to Colombia, Paraguay, Chile or Uruguay then that's your opinion, but not the truth. Croatia might be at that level, Poland not too far, but that's it.
He was in the final. Epic performance. He did not deserve to be on the losing side that day.
He was good in the other games but that’s 2 players out of the entire squad. Messie getting hem the wins and Mascherano cleaning up the dross.
So we can safely say the team was poor.
He didn't score or assist outside of group stage. In fact, they won one of the games from an own goal, and one other with Higuain creating everything by himself. And then defeated Holland in pens without scoring a goal.
He was excellent in groups though, but not so much after that. So, hardly 'he dragged them' to the finals.
Argentina certainly have more top end talent (a quick glance at some of the names on their bench makes that clear) but I think I prefer Portugal as a unit. Which may partly be down to the manager having a clearer idea of what he wants, as well as them being battle-hardened from the Euros.
So Argentina have better players. And Sampaoli is actually better (or at the very least equal) than Portugal's manager. I mean, he actually won Copa America with Chile defeating in the finals, you know, Argentina and Messi.
Hmm, there is only one other variable in the equation (not counting luck).
Maybe somebody needs to take Messi aside and tell him he's wasting some of his talent by playing so deep
Its the same in the CL where he's easily (comparatively speaking) marked out of games.
When Ronaldo does something well its in the box or it cuts right through the defence, Messi still has a lot to do when he produces a bit of magic 30 yards out.
Its the same in the CL where he's easily (comparatively speaking) marked out of games.
When Ronaldo does something well its in the box or it cuts right through the defence, Messi still has a lot to do when he produces a bit of magic 30 yards out.
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