The Gareth SouthGOAT Appreciation Club ft. no fun at all

[The Hilton]

He's done a decent job, with a fair few positives, he's assembled a comparatively likeable England team and has them playing cohesive football.

The downside to him is that there's no real tactical nous there - this England team had one way of playing, without any concept of combating opponents strengths. We also had no sense of game management, and so capitulated in both matches in which our opponents were pressing. Very naive management which spread through to the team.

Hopefully he'll temper his idealism with some pragmatism, so that in future we won't throw away matches from winning positions.

 

[TheFlagStaysDown]

He will learn, Vardy should be in when England was still ahead, at the time Croatia was attacking and Sterling really wasn't doing anything. I think England is going to win a WC sooner then anybody thinks probably the next WC.

that is very easy to say now...

judging Southgate he's done well, very lucky for the draw though, otherwise in other world cups he might not have gotten even out of a group stage or got knocked out right after. It was a poor year for big teams but he deserves credit. However I don't buy the fact that he would have taken Ricky Lambert type of players. This is the strongest squad England could go with, only question marks in Smalling/Wilshere no-nominations, but they didn't suit his style. So don't buy the fact he took young players etc. he just took the best he possibly could. I actually think that most of the managers would take this team to the semis...

 

[André Dominguez]

Come on lads: he made a great job and got eliminated by a team who's midfield were far more functional.

Delle Ali was one of the major flops of this WC imho, along with Isco. A lot was expected from them and nothing was delivered.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Southgate can only play the hand he was dealt and it’s not like he shunted Paul Scholes out to the left or omitted Carrick. You can argue a few points from last night (should he have bolstered the midfield or hooked Alli rather than Sterling) but he is very much in credit after the last 4 weeks. Now the road gets steeper as he has raised expectations but I look forward to seeing how far he can take England. Unlike 90 or 96, we will at least have some continuity after a relatively successful tournament.

 

[Judas]

Come on lads: he made a great job and got eliminated by a team who's midfield were far more functional.

Delle Ali was one of the major flops of this WC imho, along with Isco. A lot was expected from them and nothing was delivered.

Alli disappointing in an England shirt isn't new, he's not looked right at international level.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Zonal Marking dot net did a superb breakdown of highlighting Southgate's lack of tactical nous, or to put it, his tactical naivety in dealing with Croatia's approach, offensively. That where wasn't a discernible change of shape or tactical switch, to me is a question mark over him in that respect. Like for like changes only helped retain the status quo. Keeping to two up front, leaving Alli to try to cover both Modric and the often unmarked Vrsaljko was always going to be too much of a drain. Equally true is Lingard on the right with Rakitic and Skrinic.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He’s another Chris Coleman, for me. I can’t see him getting a decent club after he leaves England.

 

[ti vu]

Zonal Marking dot net did a superb breakdown of highlighting Southgate's lack of tactical nous, or to put it, his tactical naivety in dealing with Croatia's approach, offensively. That where wasn't a discernible change of shape or tactical switch, to me is a question mark over him in that respect. Like for like changes only helped retain the status quo. Keeping to two up front, leaving Alli to try to cover both Modric and the often unmarked Vrsaljko was always going to be too much of a drain. Equally true is Lingard on the right with Rakitic and Skrinic.

I wrote something about 2 man up front part in Souness thread. The problem is selection prior to tournament, not leaving 2 men up front. I jokingly suggested bringing Deeney somewhere here long ago, and vocal in Smalling thread of lack of plan B for defensive shuffle. Lack of midfield option is an issue but it can't be helped with the natural lack of good options due to English midfielders are not deserved to be included themselves.

What I meant is if you leave Kane isolated up front with little support, it's as well as not looking to counter attack at all. Kane is decent holding up play but he's not gonna battling it all the way toward opposition goal all by himself. It's where a rough battler target man is needed. And defending is not England strong point. You try to defend the wing with the extra man, doesn't mean England backs would be comfortable dealing with odd ball into the box!!! In this case, you need good conventional defender, not your modern ball playing defender. There was coming back when Croatia starting to dominate the midfield. England had nobody to win back the midfield battle even if they sub Kane and the support forward off for 2 more midfielders.

So just take Southgate as whole package. England doing well this tournament than the few previous tournaments is due to his positive approach. His shortcomings in selections, preparation of plan B is predictably his downfall but wouldn't subtract from his positive. England fan can and should be proud but don't get carried away with next world cup performance prediction, squad improvement... It's a long way. Enjoy the moment.

 

[TMDaines]

Still so gutted, but overwhelming feeling now is the same as with United where I just want that next match.

Whilst I would prefer not to have one, the third place match is probably a bigger game for England than Belgium. England could do with beating a top team to cap their tournament off and they results wouldn’t read kindly with a further loss against a good side, especially with the upcoming Spain and Croatia games to come in autumn. Southgate’s apparent fettle is man management so I expect the team to be up for this. England having their second best ever World Cup would be a good achievement.

 

[paulscholes18]

Needed to make a tactical switch around the 60 min mark when Trippier and Young were pinned back and nobody was picking up their fullbacks which gave Modric an easy pass left or right, there were 3 thing he could have done

A, bring on RLC for Alli and go 3-4-3 and have Lingard on the left and Sterling on the right tracking their fullbacks

B When the ball is down our left tell Kane to track to track Vrsaljko and when the ball is down our right tell Sterling to track Strinic

C, Tell Maguire to pick up Rebic and Walker to pick up Perisic which would have allowed Young and Tripper to puch up a bit

 

[ti vu]

Needed to make a tactical switch around the 60 min mark when Trippier and Young were pinned back and nobody was picking up their fullbacks which gave Modric an easy pass left or right, there were 3 thing he could have done

A, bring on RLC for Alli and go 3-4-3 and have Lingard on the left and Sterling on the right tracking their fullbacks

B When the ball is down our left tell Kane to track to track Vrsaljko and when the ball is down our right tell Sterling to track Strinic

C, Tell Maguire to pick up Rebic and Walker to pick up Perisic which would have allowed Young and Tripper to puch up a bit

Croatia CBs without a threat can push to be a passing option. A formation with traditional winger and full back ia like natural antidote to 5 at the back. You try to fix problem on the wing, you don't have option to relieve pressure and being outnumber centrally. Tactical downfall of Southgate is not how well/bad he can tweak the 5 the back formation, but there is no plan B to get away from tactical checkmate. Even limiting Croatia wingplay and crossing, it's no where more secured for England as Croatia is one of the better team aerially England is not that good defend deep.

England already did their best to take advantage of fitness by trying to hit Croatia early to kill the game. When the fitness advantage fade and Croatia via possession got control of the game, England was all about damage controlling.

 

[luke511]

Emotions aside Southgate got things wrong in the semi's, leaving Alli and Lingard on all game was a shocking choice. I also don't understand how Loftus Cheek didn't get to play again after the Panama game in place of Alli, even off the bench, we looked much better in midfield when he was playing.

 

[Foxbatt]

I thought he got his team selection wrong too. Stones is never a good defender at any stretch of the imagination. As Keane and others said at the top level you need defenders who can stand up on their own without relying on the midfielders all the time. There would be times they stand or fall on their own. I personally do not think that dropping Cahill and Jones and not taking Smalling was a good decision. Yes Smalling does wrestle but he is a better defender than Stones.
This ball playing defenders is not a good thing when their defensive capabilities are needed and found wanting.
The other issue for me was not taking Shelvy. Yes he is a very hot headed player but he certainly has in his locker to make a pass or shoot from even long range.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I thought he got his team selection wrong too. Stones is never a good defender at any stretch of the imagination. As Keane and others said at the top level you need defenders who can stand up on their own without relying on the midfielders all the time. There would be times they stand or fall on their own. I personally do not think that dropping Cahill and Jones and not taking Smalling was a good decision. Yes Smalling does wrestle but he is a better defender than Stones.
This ball playing defenders is not a good thing when their defensive capabilities are needed and found wanting.
The other issue for me was not taking Shelvy. Yes he is a very hot headed player but he certainly has in his locker to make a pass or shoot from even long range.

It was a calculated gamble - less defensive solidity in return for distribution. With Jones and Smalling, I think every game could have ended up like the 2nd half against Croatia - back to Pickford and hoof. I personally think both have overstayed their welcome at United and don’t blame Southgate for overlooking them.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Never felt that Alli and Lingard was a good combination, too samey. Lingard performed better and he should have had the courage to drop Alli and bring in Dier for the Croatia game. Certainly when Croatia began imposing their game early in 2nd half Dier/Delph should have been introduced at the expense of Alli.

 

[Foxbatt]

It was a calculated gamble - less defensive solidity in return for distribution. With Jones and Smalling, I think every game could have ended up like the 2nd half against Croatia - back to Pickford and hoof. I personally think both have overstayed their welcome at United and don’t blame Southgate for overlooking them.

It may have been hoof up but England may not have conceded. In any case it was hoof up with Stones too.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Feel like his decision to persist with Alli was what cost us a place in the final. Him scoring against Sweden may have been the worst thing that could have happened, I think it's very likely if he doesn't score he is dropped for Croatia.

The lad is just not a central midfielder. He's essentially a shadow striker who wants to be as close to Kane as possible, he utilizes that space brilliantly and if service is given in to him he will pop up in some really dangerous areas. He's decent for the odd through ball (his partnership with Kane for us is excellent, both know each other's movement very well) but his passing range isn't that good, we saw him lose the ball a lot for England. He wants to be in the box, simple as that.

Bringing in Delph for Alli would have helped a lot, I think. Would have helped offer support against Vrsaljko much more than having Alli in there, thus the ridiculous amount of space he had throughout the game (and for the Perisic goal) may never have happened. Southgate got the midfield all wrong against Croatia, we basically had none and our defenders weren't able to compensate for that as they often lacked passing options and were unable to deal with the press.

That was his biggest mistake throughout the tournament, but I also think he got a lot right, and the atmosphere and team spirit seemed fantastic. He will hopefully learn from this, so bring on Euro 2020.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It may have been hoof up but England may not have conceded. In any case it was hoof up with Stones too.

Against Croatia when we got overrun in the second half but not against lesser opposition. The issue was the lack of midfield options (Dier or Delph should have come on to play alongside Henderson), meaning there was rarely anyone available for the simple short pass. Stones is far from perfect but we should persist with ball playing defenders as opposed to those (like Smalling) who treat the ball like a hand grenade. Same goes for United even though I am not convinced Lindelöf is good enough.

 

[Dundrummer]

I'd be astonished if England ever beat a major nation in a competitive match with Southgate in charge.

 

[TMDaines]

I fancy a cheeky bet on him sacked by the first Euro 2020 qualifier. Those games against Croatia and Spain in Nations League could turn it sour quickly.

 

[Barca84]

I fancy a cheeky bet on him sacked by the first Euro 2020 qualifier. Those games against Croatia and Spain in Nations League could turn it sour quickly.

Not a chance.

Those having a pop at Southgate would do well to remember the man himself stated he wasn't quite ready for the job when it was given to Allardyce and only stepped in after the debacle that followed. Time will tell but he strikes me as a smart and self aware bloke who will reflect on what's happened at the WC, where he could improve his own performance, and learn from it. The experience of this WC can only be of benefit to him and he should be a better manager for it.

 

[Dumbstar]

Not a chance.

Those having a pop at Southgate would do well to remember the man himself stated he wasn't quite ready for the job when it was given to Allardyce and only stepped in after the debacle that followed. Time will tell but he strikes me as a smart and self aware bloke who will reflect on what's happened at the WC, where he could improve his own performance, and learn from it. The experience of this WC can only be of benefit to him and he should be a better manager for it.

He is young and like you say he has admitted he needs to learn more himself. Which is a definitely good sign. But you'll forgive us all when we don't share any enthusiasm for yet another England manager saviour type. A few good things from him this competition but ultimately too many big mistakes which cost us against bigger/better teams*.

If you want my honest opinion he should have beaten Croatia. And it wasn't unthinkable if he made the correct decisions, i.e don't start Alli, or if you're going to start Alli take him off for Rashford so Perisic is fecked and can't get forward. He didn't so Perisic fecked us over twice. All sounds like hindsight but its really not. I said before the Sweden game that over-playing Alli and not fully utilising pace up front was going to cost us our best chance at a world cup final when we came up against an intelligent team (Croatia, not Sweden). This kind of clueless management can't be 'trained out' of a manager just like a bad touch can't really be trained out of Lukaku.

*and these didn't include teams like Spain, Portugal, France, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Germany

 

[Tomuś]

Massive let down tactically the last 2 games. Put a downer on it.

 

[TMDaines]

Not a chance.

Those having a pop at Southgate would do well to remember the man himself stated he wasn't quite ready for the job when it was given to Allardyce and only stepped in after the debacle that followed. Time will tell but he strikes me as a smart and self aware bloke who will reflect on what's happened at the WC, where he could improve his own performance, and learn from it. The experience of this WC can only be of benefit to him and he should be a better manager for it.

I agree on that. He even said he felt getting to a semi final made England look better than they are.

I hope he brings in some additional coaches to help with the tactical side of things.

 

[Isotope]

The inexperience showed. But it is such a great start, and good football as well, it's hard not to appreciate his work so far. The real challenge is to maintain the momentum, and see if this is not just having "Leicester fever".

 

[Isotope]

It was a calculated gamble - less defensive solidity in return for distribution. With Jones and Smalling, I think every game could have ended up like the 2nd half against Croatia - back to Pickford and hoof. I personally think both have overstayed their welcome at United and don’t blame Southgate for overlooking them.

But that's England actually did on 2nd half with his choice of defenders, or against Belgium. So Southgate selection actually didn't pay off? The selection of Walker as the third centerback was particularly a bad one. If he put someone like Smalling there, he'd free up Stones and McGuire to help more in midfield; while not making Pickford to look like a superman in every game.

 

[SungSam7]

I don't buy into Southgate at all. Not his fault he got the "easier" run to the Semi's but the team didn't look convincing at any stage. Can anyone explain to me why Kane was dropping deep and letting Rashford try deal with the long balls over the top as the plan B?

 

[Mb194dc]

England are very average. Southgate is a good guy but clueless tactically, as his managerial record suggests. We beat Tunisia, Panama and Sweden in this world cup. Draw with Colombia, lost to Croatia and Belgium twice.

We could have taken a ball playing midfielder in the squad but probably won't help much. Better to keep Kane up front or not on the pitch. Playing on the counter with Vardy starting would be more effective against good opposition I think.
We had a good run. The money in our league destroys our youth development. That is the main problem.

 

[Sheamus]

It won't take long for people to turn on Gareth Southgate when he doesn't achieve the same level of success at Euro 2020.

 

[Barca84]

I agree on that. He even said he felt getting to a semi final made England look better than they are.

I hope he brings in some additional coaches to help with the tactical side of things.

Following this WC I'd expect the FA to give Southgate every possible support he might need for a good run at the Euros. Interesting times.

 

[TMDaines]

Following this WC I'd expect the FA to give Southgate every possible support he might need for a good run at the Euros. Interesting times.

It's interesting for sure, but I see a difficult couple of months. England have looked exposed against all the big sides and have four more tough, competitive games coming up. Even a side like Denmark held both Croatia and France to draws, but England have been fairly beaten against Belgium twice and Croatia.

 

[Isotope]

Following this WC I'd expect the FA to give Southgate every possible support he might need for a good run at the Euros. Interesting times.

I don't see what more support FA could give to make Southgate have a good run? Money, women, power?

 

[buchansleftleg]

I think Southgate displays an openness to learn that many managers do not once they have achieved a national manager post.

So I'm confident he will try and learn the lessons from this. In terms of man management and organisation he has done well.

Tactically he was naive and the team was one dimensional, but that could also have been because of personnel available.

Deserves backing by the FA. Even if the fans turn against him.

 

[Still ill]

You lot are very harsh. What England manager hasn't been 'exposed tactically' at a big tournament in the last 40 years? His football has an identity and he's held his hand up to the deficiencies of the last couple of games. He got the best out of what ye have at the moment, the players are 100% behind him and he's self-aware and open to learn. I'd be delighted with him if I were an England fan.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The poverty Pep.

 

[reelworld]

If you want my honest opinion he should have beaten Croatia.

No chance.
Croatia is the better team with better players in midfield and defence and better coached.
They held their own against France, but France much better attack was key last night.
England would fare much worse if they got to the final

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

But that's England actually did on 2nd half with his choice of defenders, or against Belgium. So Southgate selection actually didn't pay off? The selection of Walker as the third centerback was particularly a bad one. If he put someone like Smalling there, he'd free up Stones and McGuire to help more in midfield; while not making Pickford to look like a superman in every game.

This was just awful and naive, and is probably what most worries me about this tournament. I can (sort of) understand persisting with a formation which was completely failing to create chances, it's what they had prepped for etc and we were still getting results. I can understand him persisting with Sterling at striker despite him clearly being completely unsuited to that role, because his ability on the ball scared defences and we hardly had any world class replacements waiting in the wings. Can even sympathise with him continuing to start Alli in a deep role, due to the void of options England have there, he obviously was hoping he'd turn it on.

Walker at CB though? Nah. Schoolboy error. I was posting about it before the tournament and how I thought it was obviously going to lead to disaster. Any Spurs fan would have told you playing Kyle Walker as a central defender would be asking for trouble. Yes, he offers pace and ability to bring the ball out, but he's one of the most error prone defenders we've ever had, often so prone to being out of position or lacking in concentration. Not to mention his aerial weaknesses, he's short to begin with and not a player like Azpilicueta who has the leap or can read the game well enough to make up for it. He's a quality right back because these failings aren't so badly exposed there, and his speed and athleticism can be a real danger when attacking.

At CB his errors were always going to be punished, it was a matter of when, not if. Not sure how Southgate can excuse this when any casual fan who has seen Walker play a few times could have told him the same. There were warning signs too, even in the group games where we played terrible opposition. The one time Tunisia attacked England he gave away a penalty ffs, don't really remember Panama but they were (with all due respect) completely inept opposition with zero quality. Against Colombia he made a bad mistake which could easily have led to a goal. Whenever we got put under proper pressure he panicked. Yes, he could look good at times with his speed and support offered to Trippier, but he was a ticking time bomb from the start, and his weaknesses as a central defender were exposed against Croatia.

I kept thinking the penny would drop and Southgate would sacrifice a bit of speed/ball playing in the backline for someone who could actually play the position and wouldn't guarantee an error, but it never came. For me it was like he was determined to have his little experiment and determined that it would be a success. He needs to learn from it.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

He will learn, Vardy should be in when England was still ahead, at the time Croatia was attacking and Sterling really wasn't doing anything. I think England is going to win a WC sooner then anybody thinks probably the next WC.

He was our best player against Croatia.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

No chance.
Croatia is the better team with better players in midfield and defence and better coached.
They held their own against France, but France much better attack was key last night.
England would fare much worse if they got to the final

They have better midfielders. Strinic, Lovren, Vida and Vrsalijko are not better than the defenders Southgate had available. Strinic is a below average fullback playing for a poor A.C Milan team, he's a limited at best player. Rose and Young (Or Delph, who was very good in that position all season for City) aren't great, but are better players than him. Heck, so is Ryan Bertrand ffs.

Lovren is routinely mocked for being incredibly error prone. He can look decent all game but is generally always good for an error, I don't know a single Liverpool fan who doesn't get scared watching him play for them. Even when he's looking great you can't trust him. He's no better than John Stones. Vida plays in Turkey and is (again) very clearly a limited defender, how many teams would take him over Maguire? Seriously? Both him and Lovren looked terrified when England actually got at them for the first 20-30. Vrsaljko is a good player, but he's no better than Trippier or Kyle Walker, looks like Dani Alves in his prime when you give him the freedom of the right wing, of course.

They're better coached, but that's surely down to Southgate. He's the manager, if we're not a well coached side then he has to accept criticism. I like him, he's obviously well liked and has the team united which other England managers have hopelessly failed to do, but he failed tactically this tournament. His successes elsewhere mean he deserves another chance, but there's no point denying the truth. We don't need to pretend Croatia are fantastic now, they aren't. They're undeniably a good side, with good players, but they too struggled their way through the knockouts. Personnel wise they're on a similar level to England, though I think on paper we have the edge in terms of attacking and defensive players, while they obviously have better midfielders.

We should have beaten Croatia. We took the lead and they were all at sea for the first half, could easily have been 2 or 3 nil. When they got on top and we were clearly on the ropes in the second half, he was reactive rather than proactive, and never did anything to remedy the acres of space they had down the right which led to the equaliser. Managers are paid to steady the ship in these situations and work out what is going wrong, it wasn't a case of playing against unstoppable, vastly superior players who he could do little to stop. He was poor, but he deserves time and respect for rebuilding a sense of belief in the England team, and he will get that.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Quite amazed at the criticism towards England and Southgate in this thread but if this World Cup has taught me anything it's that a small section of people are joyless, miserable, nit picking feckers.

Nobody, nofeckinbody thought England were getting to the Semi Finals of the World Cup. I can't remember who but someone showed an array of comments regarding how far England would get and 2nd round exit was unanimous. I think I saw 'Colombia will beat England' about fifty times in that thread.

"The route was easy".
No shit, but who cares, people must have short memories, this England national team failed to beat USA and Algeria at the 2010 World Cup and barely got past Slovakia, that was a team with far superior players. England couldn't beat anyone in Brazil four years ago. Only have to look at the last Euros and England couldn't beat Russia or Slovakia and lost to Iceland. At least this team had the decency to beat the teams at their level and below.

"Southgate tactics and subs".
He was probably the most inexperienced manager at the World Cup, surprise surprise he's not got it all figured out, his game management still needs work, who'd have fecking thought it. He's found a formation and a style of play and he's working on it, the players like him, make no mistake this England team on paper is bang average. I dunno about others but I actually enjoy watching this England team play, which I haven't been able to say in about 12 years. They actually look like they give a shit and are trying to do something. This is the first England team in my lifetime I can genuinely say doesn't include a single World class player and yet it's the one that's reached the furthest in any competition.
Yes, Ali, Sterling could and probably should have been dropped, possibly even an unfit Kane but really is there anyone on the bench who could have changed things significantly. Stop with the fecking nitpicking.

"England didn't create chances and were unconvincing throughout".
Well yeah if you ignore the catalogue of chances created in the Tunisia game, the 6 goals scored against Panama and the complete control of Sweden in the quarter final. Could even mention a number of wasted chances in the 1st half of the Semi Final. Edged out by a Croatian side with the best player at the tournament and some rubbish players from Barcelona, Juventus and Inter.

"Haha, its not coming home".
Do people not know the coming home thing was you know a joke? yeah sure the part time fans joined in and made it slightly cringe but it was something that started off as self mocking.
Basically back in the day England had amazing players and fans and media would predict and expect a lot and would inevitably end up with egg on their face because the team would fail spectacularly. Well what England fans did this time was accept the team was actually a bit shit, not really expect anything and decide to sing it's coming home anyway as a way to laugh at themselves. Unfortunately a lot of people (mostly Irish, Scottish and Welsh people) are miserable fecks, probably because they've never seen their nation play in a World Cup, your fault not ours...

"England fans and ex players were getting too excited and carried away"
Ah yeah, supporters of a team unexpectedly getting to a Semi Finals never get excited, in fact I'm amazed the England players weren't being stoned by England fans. Belgium have one of the best teams in the world, finished a place above England and they're basically having festivals of celebration in Brussels, but yeah it's only England.
Anyone remember that time Wales got to a Semi Final and all their players and the nation descended into deep depression? No? me neither. Fecking joyless feckers. The best this generation of England fans have seen is a 3-0 2nd round win over Denmark in 2002 and people are surprised they were excited and getting carried away with being in a Semi