Did you actually read my post properly before angrily replying?Can we please stop with this "roots" bs? This whole thing isn't about Turkish roots unless you think Turkish roots means Erdogan and not showing the necessary values of the country you were born and raised in.
If someone actually thinks he has to support people like Erdogan because of his "roots" then this just shows a lot of problems and where our "multicultural" society still fails (and again I say this as someone whose family has Croation '"roots" but I feel 100% German, no ifs or buts).
@ArjenIsM3I'm reading Ozil is third generation born in Germany, are you third generation?
It is surprising to me one can be so attached to the politics of Turkey being third generation German, unless of course you're brought up by your parents that instil you're still Turkish.
Where did you get offensive from?Is it offensive to you that somebody may still be attached to their roots?
Why would it be offensive, they just said it was surprising while acknowledging that it is possible if his family instilled the pride of heritage in him. People can be surprised by the mechanics of something without it being xenophobic.Is it offensive to you that somebody may still be attached to their roots?
I know tone is difficult to guage over the internet but I genuinely was asking, not being sarcastic or anything.Where did you get offensive from?
That's misleading on a Fox News level. What you linked is a format which tries to summarize the past and upcoming day with a few words as necessary and he's "only making it worse" is meant strictly in the context of the original debate (Erdogan and democratic values).Depends which media you read. The ones who used a picture of Özil as the headline when Germany crashed out of the World Cup come up with atrocities like these:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/faz-net-sprinter-oezil-macht-es-nur-noch-schlimmer-15703461.html ("Özil is only making it worse").
Players have the right to political opinions as private citizens.Sport was meant to be apolitical yet Ozil didn't think it was a problem to take that picture?
That is unfortunate of course, but nonetheless implicit only and regardless, purely political - Erdogan's revolting European campaign trail notwithstanding.If this hasn't been clear yet: most people see this as a political endorsement for Erdogan in the (back then) upcoming elections in Turkey. Far from a simple picture.
You, like many in this thread, must simply be ignorant of exactly who and what Erdogan is. He's a quasi-dictator, who has been imprisoning huge swathes of innocent citizens for political reasons and committing systematic genocide against the Kurdish people. I'm not German, so my only exposure to the backlash I've seen is from this thread and while I'm sure it's been terrible and jumped on by horrible people, that doesn't excuse Ozil's decision to pose with and in turn endorse a genocidal authoritarian.People that are saying there's blame on both sides- He's just one man who was gone after by his bosses and the whole media. What is his mistake here?
Playing for die Mannschaft is a privilege, not a right. And thus it can be taken away without stepping on Özil's freedom of speech.Players have the right to political opinions as private citizens.
I think Erdogan is as reprehensible as the next guy, but unless a player is explicitly endorsing violence, racism, or similarly demonizing opinions as 'political views', he has to be given his freedom of speech without this impacting on his status as a sportsperson.
Others, including the German FA, can utilize their own freedom of speech to condemn such things of course, but you can't be banning people from sports for holding perfectly legal views; nevermind that he is guilty of this only by pictoral association - the court of public opinion has always had loose standards of course, but these can not be allowed to permeate institutions that should also hold themselves to higher standards and codices of law.
Not without the German FA setting itself up as arbiter of political views - Which is a wrong path for a sporting institution to take. Especially on such flimsy grounds.Playing for die Mannschaft is a privilege, not a right. And thus it can be taken away without stepping on Özil's freedom of speech.
Maybe the German NT is more important than others in their country because they actually win stuff, but it's always been more than just a random football team and at least in the past decade or so an instution that's meant to support multiculturalism and integration.Not without the German FA setting itself up as arbiter of political views - Which is a wrong path for a sporting institution to take. Especially on such flimsy grounds.
"freedom of speech" doesn't mean "freedom of consequences" and an organisation like the DFB has EVERY right to ban players if they don't behave according to the values of the organisation. I already posted that german NT players were banned for a lot less. The whole MISTAKE was not taking action in the first place and just trying to ignore the whole issue. Özil (and Gündogan) did get a lot of leeway from the DFB but it was Özil who handled it so extremely badly, he had enough opportunities to fix this thing but even in his current statement there is no regret or taking responsibility, it's all about deflecting and pointing fingers at others.Players have the right to political opinions as private citizens.
I think Erdogan is as reprehensible as the next guy, but unless a player is explicitly endorsing violence, racism, or similarly demonizing opinions as 'political views', he has to be given his freedom of speech without this impacting on his status as a sportsperson.
Others, including the German FA, can utilize their own freedom of speech to condemn such things of course, but you can't be banning people from sports for holding perfectly legal views; nevermind that he is guilty of this only by pictoral association - the court of public opinion has always had loose standards of course, but these can not be allowed to permeate institutions that should also hold themselves to higher standards and codices of law.
Hounding out a Turkish descendant sets a great example then.Maybe the German NT is more important than others in their country because they actually win stuff, but it's always been more than just a random football team and at least in the past decade or so an instution that's meant to support multiculturalism and integration.
1. No one has anything but contempt for how the DFB handeld this matter,.Hounding out a Turkish descendant sets a great example then.
You can't as a public institution be making decisions based on such flimsy arguments as "guilty by association of picture taken." Perhaps, perhaps, if he had held a speech endorsing Erdogan and his methods, a conversation about it could be had, depending on the gravity of what he explicitly endorsed. But what you are suggesting?
"We, the German NT, by way of having your picture taken with a political leader whose methods are un-democratic and whose political views are un-German, accuse you of endorsing all that Erdogan stands for by association, under penalty of banishment from the team. How do you plead?"
"I have expounded no political views on the matter and shall refrain from doing so in this instance as well."
"Then we allege that the pictures speak for themselves in regards to your views and pronounce you guilty."
It would be a pitiful society where these thing take root.
you mean that ridiculous online vote which his instagram fanboys have been dominating? Don’t take that as a reflection of how German fans think of his performances. Criticize Hoeneß all you want, he’s right about Özil. He’s been pointless for a long time now and saying that doesn’t suddenly make you racist, although Özil seems to believe that in his little bubble.Hoeness is a complete prick and his comments don't seem to fit in with how German fans have voted for the past 10 years?
To support Erdogan is to support bigotry.The arguments to allow the actions of racists are always funny. Same thing for trump and brexit.
I think that's fairly obvious.Why doesn't Ozil have a right to support Erdogan?
According to Özil, he was ready to publish a statement with Steinmeier and Gündogan when they met but the DFB, or in particular Grindel, was against it because he a) was offended that he wasn't invited to this meeting and b) wanted it to be published through the DFB first. Ironic that he's the one demandng a statement from Özil after the world cup, then."freedom of speech" doesn't mean "freedom of consequences" and an organisation like the DFB has EVERY right to ban players if they don't behave according to the values of the organisation. I already posted that german NT players were banned for a lot less. The whole MISTAKE was not taking action in the first place and just trying to ignore the whole issue. Özil (and Gündogan) did get a lot of leeway from the DFB but it was Özil who handled it so extremely badly, he had enough opportunities to fix this thing but even in his current statement there is no regret or taking responsibility, it's all about deflecting and pointing fingers at others.
Let's be honest here, this whole thing only serves his own personal agenda and saving his international marketing appeal, there is a reason why his statement was only released in english on social media.
Özil is trying to go in the offensive here because he knows that he has no future in the german NT (and that's btw regardless of "Erdogate" because his performances have been lacking since quite some time) and now is the opportunity for him while the german FA is in a weak position.
Nope, you can't switch NT after playing a competitive game.This has been blown out of proportion, but I do feel Ozil is justified in his actions to leave the German national team if he felt marginalised.
Saying that, it was stupid to pose for a photo with Erdogan unless he is actually a fan of him and his policies, especially in the current political environment. Perhaps he just didn't think about the wider consequences of getting a photo taken with Erdogan and was naive to it all. I doubt it was a conscious effort on his part to stir the political pot of madness.
I myself have a Turkish background and was born in the UK, yet I would never consider getting a photo taken with Erdogan as I despise the man. I don't care if he is the leader of Turkey, that alone wouldn't make me take a photo with him. If I supported them and liked what they stood for, I would. Therefore I can see how some thought that this was Ozil directly supporting Erdogan, although it doesn't seem to be the case in reality.
Also, on a side note, is it at all possible for Ozil to play for the Turkish national team now?
To support Israel is to support genocide, doesn't stop anyone in the UK. Btw Erdogan is one of only a handful of Muslim leaders to have cordial relations with Israel.To support Erdogan is to support bigotry.
https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/247381/in-erdogans-post-coup-turkey-anti-semitism-is-on-the-rise
Oh he can support Erdogan. But he shouldn't expect support from another nation for it. Especially one that's been publicly insulted by Erdogan.Why doesn't Ozil have a right to support Erdogan?
If he does, he should have left the team long ago. Erdogan is the Wort authoritarian Europe has to offer, is acticevely trying to divide German society and has been an outright enemy of the German people for a few years. You can’t support him and act like you are German, really.Why doesn't Ozil have a right to support Erdogan?
To support any country in the world means to support bigotry. The current president of the United states and the current prime minister of the UK who has completely done over a whole generation of black people from the Caribbean. All it is the hypocrisy, whatever narrative is fed to you at different points. Western culture has been responsible for more of the world's atrocities than anywhere else. But you don't see people refusing to pose with them.To support Erdogan is to support bigotry.
https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/247381/in-erdogans-post-coup-turkey-anti-semitism-is-on-the-rise
Do you even understand the meaning of the word genocide? But I have promised to myself to not discuss with anyone who is using this word in this context anyway, so have a good day and have fun in that fabricated world of yours.To support Israel is to support genocide, doesn't stop anyone in the UK. Btw Erdogan is one of only a handful of Muslim leaders to have cordial relations with Israel.
Ah that's a shame!Nope, you can't switch NT after playing a competitive game.
From a football perspective, this is probably best for both sides tbh.
What a load of horseshit. I‘m not a fan of either, but acting like they are comparable is just stupid.To support any country in the world means to support bigotry. The current president of the United states and the current prime minister of the UK who has completely done over a whole generation of black people from the Caribbean. All it is the hypocrisy, whatever narrative is fed to you at different points. Western culture has been responsible for more of the world's atrocities than anywhere else. But you don't see people refusing to pose with them.
Generally speaking, there are big judicial problems with the common trend of "association implies full endorsement" doctrine that pervades public opinion these days. It's not turning out well for us as a society.To support Israel is to support genocide, doesn't stop anyone in the UK. Btw Erdogan is one of only a handful of Muslim leaders to have cordial relations with Israel.
He does have the right and if he chooses to do it publically, then he will incur the consequences of that publically. Erdogan is a very bad person and if Ozil supports the Kurdish genocide and politcal imprisonment of Erdogan's opposition then he is a terrible person himself.Why doesn't Ozil have a right to support Erdogan?
You see this is the problem here. Europeans are intolerant of alternative political views. I'm Kashmiri, I'm Pakistani, I hate Modi (the PM) of India, but I respect people's right to vote for him and to support him. I hate Benjamin Netanyahu, he's a mass murderer but I support peoples right to support him. I hate Donald Trump but if someone wants to fondle the balls of a racist orangatan, then it's their right to do so, I support them in that right.I think that's fairly obvious.
We're living in a different world now. Thugs, racists & good oul 1930s fascism is back. Prominent people, like Ozil, have to make a choice as to which side they're on. I know most footballers are a bit thick but there's no excuse for Ozil here.
That’s if you chose to believe him, which I do not for now. Gündogan hasn’t even hinted at something like that.According to Özil, he was ready to publish a statement with Steinmeier and Gündogan when they met but the DFB, or in particular Grindel, was against it because he a) was offended that he wasn't invited to this meeting and b) wanted it to be published through the DFB first. Ironic that he's the one demandng a statement from Özil after the world cup, then.
Özil is by the way among the last who should be criticized for his performances. Heads and shoulders above Müller, Draxler, Khedira, Boateng, Gomez and other veterans. Was probably the only decent player against South Korea.
